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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 23 June 2024 [1].

Bäckadräkten

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Nominator(s): Dugan Murphy (talk) 16:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Earlier this year I saw a Swedish folk musician named Fredy Clue perform while wearing an outfit that looked pretty special: Bäckadräkten. Being a fan of folk music, but also from the US, I didn't know much about folk costumes. Talking to Clue, I learned a little bit about what they were wearing and why it is special. Looking into it online, the costume looked like a notable subject without a Wiki article, so I spent some time going through all the reliable sources I could find and drafting something something I think is worthy of FAC. I collected a few relevant photos and got the permissions necessary to include them in the article. I've seen 8 other articles through the FAC and FL, but all of them on historical topics. This is my first on a current topic, relying entirely on modern media. Thank you in advance for taking a look at the article and making some comments! Dugan Murphy (talk) 16:56, 5 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Draken Bowser

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Ida Björs, of Järvsö? She's got to be a relative of the famous potato farmers. Anyways:

  • Design: I stumbled a bit during my first read through since "the hardest part of the costume" is used twice, only to realize it deals with either of the co-designers in turn. Do you think it would make sense to combine the statements into one sentence? -- "The brooch pins together the costume's square standing collar" feels incomplete.
Somebody commented on the talk page about this aspect of the article, so now that you bring it up, I really think it's worth addressing. I've reworded that section to more clearly juxtapose the two opinions. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Background: I think the 20th century revival needs to be more clearly presented as a revival. Otherwise it might be unclear that regional costumes had already existed among the peasantry at parish level, while (iirc) the novelty of the 20th century was the creation of costumes representing entire landscapes (and of course the Sverigedräkt, but there are no issues as to how that's presented).
I just reworded that section, adding a couple words like romantic nationalism from the source. I'm not sure I can say what you're looking for without an additional source to draw from that speaks to folk costume history more generally. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nicely done, I don't think we need to elaborate further within the scope of this article. /DB
  • Development: "nor collaborated with a project partner on a clothing project."
That's a fine recommendation. Accepted. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Release: "Sweden's first unisex folk costume" - one instance of notestacking is not worth quarreling over. Still, do you think one or two could be removed?
I do. The stacked citations are there to support that a longer version of that sentence which stated Bäckadräkten is widely reported as the first. Somebody recently pointed out this was WP:SYNTH, and removed the "widely reported" claim. Now it seems we can get by with just one citation, which is what you'll now see. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reception: I think Clue gets just a little bit too much space to expound on their views here. Do you think the second paragraph could be shortened?
Shortened. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Regards. Draken Bowser (talk) 07:39, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for taking the time to read through the article and make a few comments! I look forward to the source review. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:42, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Source review
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Spot check Checking 2, 5, 6, 9 and 13.

  • 2: checks out, though there is a missed opportunity here. The source explains how the name "Bäckadräkten" is also part of the flowing water theme, "bäck" meaning stream (specifically of the watery kind).
That's a very good point! I just added that. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 9: Svårast att sy berättar hon att de små, små fina vecken på skjortan So it is the pleats of the shirt Björs found the most difficult. Additionally, the way I'm reading note 7 Clue is describing the intricacies of the fabric requiring a hand-woven process, but it seems that this work was done by the weaver in Delsbo and not by Clue or Björs. -- The source was published before the 2022 Delsbostämma, so it is crystalballing that he might wear the dräkt (it would surprise me if he didn't, but we need another note for that).
Thank you for catching the skirt/shirt mixup. That is fixed. I removed the line about Clue saying what part of the costume was hardest to produce. And I see what you're saying about the crystal ball. I removed the reference to the Delsbo event. It was a bit tacked-on anyway. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 13: I'm not certain "early-20th-century Swedish folk costumes" is correct here. The article talks about skördesärkar och liknande plagg från förra sekelskiftet. A "skördesärk" and "similar vestments" refers to everyday clothing not directly associated with folk costumes. "Sekelskifte" is usually regarded as meaning before and/or after the year 1900, somewhat similar to "the turn of the century".
I agree. I changed "early-20th-century Swedish folk costumes" to "traditional Swedish clothing from the turn of the 20th century". That seems a better fit. I'll address the next comment in a little bit. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:36, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • 2 and 13: I don't see them explicitly supporting that he wore the costume to such events (it would surprise me if he didn't, but we might need another note here).
You're right! Source 2 doesn't say anything despite my notes and 13 says the costume was sometimes on tour during the exhibit, though it doesn't explicitly say what being on tour means. I've removed that sentence but added a line at the beginning of that section about the single copy of the costume being meant for Clue's use on stage, which is supported by source 8. Dugan Murphy (talk) 16:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Overall

Sourcing looks decent. There are no academic publications on Bäckadräkten as of yet (not counting the one undergraduate essay published earlier this year). The sources are mostly published by reputable Swedish and international news organisations. The Facebook-source is self published by the Swedish Institute, which is fine. Svart Pist Publishing is a PR firm, but they have experience publishing on Helsingiana topics for several years and I don't think they've been used inappropriately here. I'm agnostic on mumblemusic.net, I'd appreciate if you could give me your assessment of it in terms of reliability. I've never seen the |location= parameter used for {{Cite news}} and I don't think it adds any value, I'd prefer to omit it.

I've removed the location parameter from all Cite news citations. Mumble Music is self-published, so I wouldn't use it to back up anything controversial or stated as a factual assessment. I feel comfortable using it here because it is an interview with Clue and Clue literally announces the pattern release in the interview. It is the only documentation I can find dating the release of the pattern. All the other sources either talk about the pattern being planned for the future or talk about it like it has always been available. Let me know if you have more thoughts about Mumble Music. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Update: Based on discussion below with Hog Farm, I've removed the Mumble Music source. Mumble is moot. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm leaning pass, but might do another spot-check before completing the review. Draken Bowser (talk) 15:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we should include Fria Tider even with a disclaimer, it's deprecated as a source on svwiki due to lax standards. Draken Bowser (talk) 21:43, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the info on Fria Tider. I've removed the one sentence referring to it. Hopefully the reference to the two Czech websites appropriately satisfies both your and Pbritti's (below) comments about the imbalance of positive and negative reactions to the costume's release. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Aha, no my concern was that there was too much of Clue's own thoughts. We do not need to go on an expedition to find negative critique that is not repeated in mainstream sources. Draken Bowser (talk) 07:46, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've addressed all the comments you've submitted thus far. Did your additional spot checks turn up anything or do you see anything else that holds this article back from being worthy of FA? Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:51, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm in agreement with Buidhe. We need to rely on the best available sources, so reactions from such websites are due only once they have been significantly covered by reliable sources. Let's leave that out.
Agreed and done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 21:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's one other piece of info that could be included in the article for completeness: an image of Clue wearing the dräkt was printed on the back cover of the Hälsingland Heritage Associations 2022 yearbook, which is verified by this source. Draken Bowser (talk) 08:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for finding this! I just added a mention of it in the reception section. What other comments do you have on this nomination? Dugan Murphy (talk) 21:20, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have news sources covered now and I'm skipping the second spot-check, since I've found no obvious errors compared to the articles I browsed in Retriever Research [sv]. We should propably cite the article in Hälsingerunor for completeness and because it makes a few interesting points not currently in the text. Here's the template:
Brügge, Anne (2022). "Queer folkdräkt med inslag av Hälsingland". Hälsingerunor (in Swedish). Hälsinglands hembygdskrets. pp. 117–121. ISSN 0440-0585.
  • We get a more detailed description of the components, including the "traditional" and "wide-armed" shirt, the "indigo coloured" kyxa with "large pleats", the use of "practical pockets" at the side and front with their "brass buttons" and "kattun"-lining (no idea how to translate this into English), the "sturdy" belt, the "cotton voile" shawl made by Björs with imprints of seashells and "queer symbols", the silver earrings and vest jewelry. It also mentions engravings by Karin Östberg, but it is unclear here whether this refers to the brooch, the earrings and/or the vest accessories. Later in the text the vest accessory is attributed to Karin Li, with the design as a collaboration between her and Björs.
  • It mentions Björs previous experimentation with folkdräkt tradition, including the year 2000 exhibition at the Hälsingland Museum [sv] Hemskt, ung samtidskonst av sju hemvändare where Björs' Järvsödräkten fritt tolkad – variationer på ett tema (Järvsödräkten being the folk costume of her birthplace) was one of seven entries.

    At the time she described her work as a process surrounding identity, belonging, language and a departure. The visitor experienced a forceful challenge to established customs concerning what could be sewn and worn. Her costumes manifesting adventurous journeys into the past and future [...] themes for Bäckadräkten are similar, but also different, with Clue's question of identity focused on freedom from distinct gender identity and a newfound relationship with the queer community. – Brügge

  • The connection to Hälsingland and the West coast is reiterated, but there's also a connection made to the Dalarna tradition with respect to the handmade shoes and the socks' tassels.
  • The female version of the hat is specifically tied to Toarp parish [sv], which is cited as Clue's inspiration (the general similarity to many male folk costumes is also reiterated).
  • The use of nuggor along the linings of the shirt collar and cuffs, and the use of "wrinkling" to rein in the wide arms is described (no idea which terms to use in standard English).
  • Interestingly the wish for trans flag colours led to a few sketches, before they discovered Ljusdalsdräkten's vest. The fabric used was woven by local textile artist Christina Wreiding (1948–2021).
Folk costumes of Delsbo, left to right: women's suit, men's black version, men's white version ("högtidsdräkt").
  • The belt was inspired by an old design from Delsbo parish [sv]. It is not mentioned here, but the design is strikingly similar to the belt used with the white edition of the Delsbo folk costume.
  • A connection to Knut Nilsson Lenæus [sv]'s Delsboa Illustrata (1764) is made, which brings up another interesting point about gender. The mid-foot heel was a prominent feature of women's shoe designs during the period, but had previously been a part of men's shoe designs in the Delsbo area, at least during the 1730s.
  • It is mentioned that the suit was worn by Clue at the pride festival performance, and during a short tour including the Delsbostämman [sv] before returning to the exhibition at the Borås Textile Museum, so now we could reintroduce that info.
  • Brügge considers the use of the everyday unisex clothes at the exhibition an attempt to also invoke the contrast between such everyday clothing worn for labour and fancy folk costumes "worn to church and festivites".
I'll let you take your pick of what to include into the article. Once the work is done the article will be BESTSOURCES-compliant and the source review is a pass. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:51, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Draken Bowser: Thank you so much for finding this extra source and for writing out some notes for this print publication I don't have access to. I've incorporated almost everything from your notes, which definitely boosts the article's comprehensiveness. Is there anything else keeping this article from passing your source review? Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:01, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, it's a pass. Draken Bowser (talk) 05:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On second thought, Brügge's assessment of the exhibition is a bit tangential to the topic at hand. Either way I'm concluding my review and leave it to my fellow reviewers to assess whether the other additions based on my suggestions were appropriate. Draken Bowser (talk) 14:12, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Pbritti

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Reserving a slot. I'll have more time soon (Thursday especially) but I have to prioritize some offline stuff. I made some minor tweaks on this article when it ran at DYK, but I don't think they're significant enough to qualify me as having been seriously involved in the article. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • It looks like every linked online reference still works with the exception of Engström. Consider using url-status=live so that the original website link is displayed more prominently, followed by the archived version. For Engström, url-status=dead.
Thank you for the recommendation! Accepted. The Engström link has a paywall, but it is not dead, so I added url-status=live to every citation. Dugan Murphy (talk) 21:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think I must have an issue accessing even the paywalled version of the Engström piece, but this is almost certainly an issue with my devices (I've seen it before). Good work! ~ Pbritti (talk) 14:54, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Helsinki is linked in a reference. I'm inclined to believe it might not need to be, but that's up to you.
Draken Bowser brought up that the location parameter isn't all that necessary for the cite news template, so I removed this. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • ,[8] artist[3] and musician[10] Fredy Clue Citations mid-sentence can be visually jarring, particularly when not immediately preceded by punctuation. Consider pushing all of them to the end of the sentence (which would also negate the need to cite Andersson twice for the same sentence). You can leave the sentence about international news coverage on the subject alone, as the commas and sentence structure lend themselves to this citation placement. I think Clue sells copies of the pattern[12] is probably ok, but I'd encourage you reserve citation placement to only after punctuation.
I see what you're saying. I followed your recommendation and moved all citations in the sentence from your first example to the end of that sentence. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • which appears like a bodice in the front, but a vest in the back I'd consider insertion of "feminine" before bodice and "masculine" before vest. Additionally, if possible, consider indicating what elements from both garments that are present in Bäckadräkten.
"Feminine" and "masculine" added! Unfortunately, the sources don't speak to the specifics desired. 23:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)
  • he shirt's fine pleats Is this "fine" in the sense of being small or "fine" in the sense of being of a remarkably high quality? If possible, illustration of this intricate detail would be incredible.
Changed "fine" for "thin" for clarity. I don't think the sources offer more detail on this, unfotrunately. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • experimentations with unisex folk costume designs. There is unanimous agreement that Bäckadräkten is the first unisex Swedish folk costume. However, this sentence leaves open the possibility that unisex folk garments were produced in Sweden before Bäckadräkten. Is there space to elaborate on these experiments and their outcomes?
Reworded. The BBC article includes some stories about a couple other people in other Scanidavian countries combining and modifying existing folk costume elements to make them more gender-flexible, but I think exploring those stories is beyond the scope of this article. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A post about it on the official Facebook page of Sweden was shared by users on that platform over 1,900 times and attracted over 1,500 comments and 6,700 reactions. Part of me thinks this is BLUESKY, but part of me thinks this is original research. I say the latter because listing the number of interactions suggests there is something significant in this number of interactions (that it is more/fewer than usual, an indication of controversy, or a display of popular support) without a reliable source that interprets this. I'd suggest retaining the source but just adding to the preceding sentence that the Swedish government published it on Facebook.
I think venturing to say whether the number of interactions is significant would be original research, which is why I simply listed the numbers instead of my interpretation of those numbers. I think naming the Swedish Institute here is appropriate. That is done. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • have welcomed the new development Now that the Bäckadräkten is a couple years old and to improve the shelf-life of the sentence, I suggest rewording the sentence to read "welcomed the development" or "welcomed the introduction of the Bäckadräkten".
Good point! Changed to "welcomed the development". Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clue did not report any reactions from the organization I don't speak Swedish, but this seems vague: did Clue report that the organization has not reacted or has Clue been mum on the subject, which suggests the organization hasn't commented?
Thank you for pointing this out. I reworded, so it should be clear now. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:39, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • There seems to be a bit of a minimization of critics of Bäckadräkten in the article. This may be the result of the sourcing, but including what really only amounts to "social media users mean, more at 11," followed by a response by Clue. This makes the article feel a bit too laudatory (but only a bit). I'd strive to include even just one more sentence of negative criticism, but I understand if sourcing to this end is scant.
I just added three more negative reactions. They are all from news sources considered extreme far right disinformation, which is why I omitted them originally. But between this comment and a similar one from Draken Bowser above, I figured it was time to bring them in. Because they're clearly unreliable sources, their statements are paired with disclaimers. Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Make that two negative reactions. I am removing one of them per further discussion with Draken Bowser above. I can't find any other negative reaction specifics in the sources. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:31, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please note that this is my first "real" FAC review, so my comments are to be taken with a grain of salt. The article is already exceptional so skipping the GA/PR step isn't an issue to me. Wikipedia is far better for this article! ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the comments! I should be able to address these and respond by Wednesday. Dugan Murphy (talk) 11:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent. I'll be free from around 19:00 UTC Wednesday to discuss anything! Best, ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:45, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your replies and adjustments have addressed all my concerns sufficiently. I'm very happy to report that Dugan Murphy provided me the first support !vote at an FAC I nominated and that an article they nominated will receive the first support !vote I've cast in an FAC. Excellent job on a very cool subject! ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:04, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the support! I just addressed your last comment, which required the most editing of any addressed comments, so let me know if you think that section needs more work to maintain your support for the nomination. Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Having read that, I am good with the changes! It's difficult to find non-laudatory material on a subject like this that comes from purely reliable sources. You did a good job with what you could work with. ~ Pbritti (talk) 17:35, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

HF

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I'll try to review this soon. I don't speak Swedish and my idea of fashion is "pearl snap shirt and blue jeans" so the coordinators should please consider this to be a nonexpert review. Hog Farm Talk 01:57, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Its fabric, sourced from Ljusdal," - is this referring to the fabric of the costume as a whole, or of the livstycke is particular?
Just the livstycke. Clarified. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is Boras Pride?
Clarified. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and juxtaposed it against unisex design elements from traditional Swedish clothing from the turn of the 20th century." - I'm struggling to figure out what exactly you mean by this - did the older clothing have individual elements that were unisex?
You are correct. I just reworded to hopefully enhance clarity. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Clue announced the sewing pattern was available as of May 2023" - is there a source actually post-dating the release that can be used to support this?
That's a good question. I've switched to a new source and reworded the sentence to match what it says. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:50, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A post about it on the official Facebook page of Sweden was shared by users on that platform over 1,900 times and attracted over 1,500 comments and 6,700 reactions" - is there something other than the Facebook post itself that can be used to better demonstrate the significance? Some context would also be useful - is 1,900 shares an unusual amount for context such as this? I also think self-sourcing of things such as this tends to indicate that the information may not be due weight
Pbritti raised a similar concern about counting the number of Facebook post interactions. Though that discussion ended in leaving the status quo, hearing a similar comment from you is making me look into it a bit more. Looking online, the only sources I can find that provide an average Facebook post interaction rate are commercial sources like Oberlo/Shopify and Barker Social. According to their numbers, the number of user interactions is above average, but I'm not sure either website is FA-appropriate. If I am not able to provide context for the numbers, perhaps I should remove them. What do you think? I think the fact that the Swedish government promoted Bäckadräkten on social media is notable, even though no news outlets bothered to mention it, so I wouldn't want to totally remove this part of the article. What do you think? Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there anything that can really be said about the reaction to this beyond "there were mixed emotions on social media but the guy who created this says everything is okay"? A search for scholarly sources only brings up two unusable undergraduate works, so there doesn't seem to be much available there, but "people talked about it on social media" is a very low bar.
I added some negative reactions from two far right extremist disinformation websites. I left them out of the article initially because they are clearly unreliable, but you're the third reviewer to say there needs to be more detail on negative reactions. I believe the reliable sources are picked dry – they really do only say "people talked about it on social media". Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That's it from me for now, this is a less in-depth review than I usually perform due to my unfamiliarity with the subject matter and inability to read the languages that much of the relevant sourcing is in. Hog Farm Talk 03:23, 21 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm: Thank you so much for stepping out of Civil War Land and into Hälsingland for a moment. Do you think any of these issues warrant further discussion? Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:36, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If it's extremist disinformation websites then I don't think we need to be directly using that. I guess if there isn't anything in the RS beyond "people talked about it on social media", then there's nothing more to really say about that. On the Facebook post - at a minimum I would remove the content about shares, comments, and reactions, as it looks impossible to provide any sort of meaning to those figures without SYNTH or original research. Hog Farm Talk 02:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've deleted the number of Facebook reactions, but I've left the references to the disinformation websites as WP:SELFSOURCE. Now that it's in the article, I think those sentences provide valuable illustration of the discomfort with social change in the following sentence. Do you agree that there's SELFSOURCE value there? Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Buidhe's points below on this - if these are fringey websites that we have to describe in the article as being disinformation, then I don't see how a SELFSOURCE usage would be due weight. Hog Farm Talk 12:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: Sure thing. The disinformation sites are removed. I believe all your comments are now addressed. Do you support the nomination? Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just one more question (since I can't read the languages most of the sources are in) - which source(s), if any, are direct interviews with Clue? Hog Farm Talk 23:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
None. The radio pieces and TV piece include long quotes from Clue, but not in response to questions. The Clue quotes in the print sources tend to be shorter, and likewise, none of them are in response to questions. I had one interview in the references list at the initial nomination, but I removed it earlier when addressing your question about the release of the sewing pattern. Dugan Murphy (talk) 00:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - I intend to support, but since I can't assess the sourcing well myself I want to hold off until after the source review has been completed. Please ping me once the source review has passed. Hog Farm Talk 00:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hog Farm: The source review has passed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 11:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
supporting with the caveat that this is mainly a surface-level review due to the lack of subject-matter knowledge and language barriers for me. Hog Farm Talk 16:41, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Epicgenius

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I hope to leave some comments here soon. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:21, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Epicgenius Ready to review yet? Gog the Mild (talk) 12:21, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Lead:
  • Para 1: "like the vest that is also a bodice and the culottes that present as a skirt." - In this situation, I would say "such as" rather than "like" which sounds a bit informal.
  • Para 1: "Bäcka means 'stream'," - I would write "Bäcka is the Swedish word for 'stream'" instead.
  • Brief interjection: the Swedish word for stream is actually "bäck". "Bäcka" is a result of slapping an -a onto certain nouns, common in many Northern Swedish dialects (e.g. "bro" → "broa" bridge, "ko" → "koa" cow). Draken Bowser (talk) 15:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 2: "Discussions about a potential unisex design for Sweden started in the early 2010s and the idea that led to Bäckadräkten originated with Clue in 2018." - I'd rephrase the second half of this sentence to use active voice, e.g. "Discussions about a potential unisex design for Sweden started in the early 2010s, and Clue first devised the idea that led to Bäckadräkten in 2018."
  • Para 2: "The resulting single costume is for Clue to wear on stage." - So this was created specifically for Clue, or was it a costume intended for nonbinary Swedes in general?
  • Para 3: "Clue said they hope the discussion raises awareness of non-cisgender identities." - Could this just be something like "Clue hopes the discussion raises awareness of non-cisgender identities", or do we specifically need to write that they said that?
  • I guess I wrote it that way to keep it true even if things change. Not that I'm particularly concerned about Clue changing their hopes, but that's a wording pattern that seems appropriate for recent events concerning living people. Let me know if you have more thoughts on that. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Design:
  • Para 1: "Otherwise, the costume's primary design theme is flowing water, referenced by the word bäcka, meaning 'stream'." - Similar to the above, I'd write that this is the Swedish word for "stream".
  • Para 1: "The shape of ocean waves are" - This should be "The shape of ocean waves is". The word "is" refers to "the shape", not "waves".
  • Para 2: "The design is traditionally worn by men in most of Sweden," - Is it worn by women too, or is women's usage of the hat restricted to Toarp Parish and Borås only?
  • Para 2: "Its reversibility allows the top to display either pink or light blue." - For some reason, this wording strikes me as weird. Presumably, one side is pink and the other side is light blue, so if that's the case, I'd just say that.
  • Para 2: "The tongue features a heart shape to match the brooch. The brooch is heart-shaped," - The wording "the brooch. The brooch" seems a little repetitive. I would suggest either combining the two sentences, flipping the order of the sentences, or rewording one of the sentences so the same phrase doesn't appear back-to-back. However, this is a minor point.
Background:
  • Para 1: "What are referred to in Scandinavia as national costumes and folk costumes originated as basic clothing for Scandinavians of lower economic classes." - Are the costumes known as "national costumes" and "folk costumes" outside of Scandinavia, too? If so, could this be "Scandinavian national costumes and folk costumes originated as basic clothing..."?
  • Para 2: "While most Swedes are exposed to the folk arts through costuming, artist and musician Fredy Clue was first exposed through folk dance and music." - Clue was first introduced above, in the "design" section. Perhaps you could mention their occupations in that section instead.
More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the comments! I believe they are all addressed. Looking forward to more. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:41, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Epicgenius Nudge. :-) Gog the Mild (talk) 19:03, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. I will leave some feedback on Friday. – Epicgenius (talk) 22:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Development:
  • Para 1: "Between that year and 2021, they developed a collaboration with the pride festival in Borås, brainstormed the Bäckadräkten project, and applied for grant funding." - "They" being Clue, or Clue and Andersson?
  • Para 1: "two nonprofit organizations that support youth in the Swedish folk and cultural communities: Folk You and Kulturungdom" - I personally would mention the two organizations' names earlier. E.g. " The project was financed by the Västra Götaland Regional Council, along with Folk You and Kulturungdom, two nonprofit organizations that support youth in the Swedish folk and cultural communities".
  • Para 1: "Järvsödräkten" - Is this her hometown's dress, or her hometown's name?
  • Para 2: "In the spring of that year" - Personally I'd say "That spring", although MOS:SEASON does suggest rephrasing this to get rid of the season.
  • Para 2: "The focus group met multiple times, mostly using Zoom software" - Also, I think you could say "The focus group met multiple times, mostly virtually via Zoom software" or something like that.
More in a bit. – Epicgenius (talk) 15:49, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are great changes and I appreciate you bringing them up. I'll look forward to seeing more from you later. Dugan Murphy (talk) 23:25, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Release:
  • Para 1: "During that time, however, the costume was for a short while being used by Clue on a tour that included a performance at Delsbostämman [sv]" - I think this can be shortened, e.g. "During that time, however, the costume was briefly used by Clue on a tour that included a performance at Delsbostämman [sv]"
  • Also, are there any data on how many Bäckadräktens have been sold?
  • Nope. I did a thorough online search for information before I drafted this article and added Google Alerts at that time for both "Fredy Clue" and "Bäckadräkten" so I can keep the article up to date. Draken Bowser did their own search and found one print item I hadn't found, but that is included now in the sources. None of these sources say anything about how many copies of the costume have been made since the release. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More shortly. – Epicgenius (talk) 14:55, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks! I'll look for more comments from you soon. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:01, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Epicgenius, just a gentle nudge. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about that. I'll finish up my entire review by Monday. – Epicgenius (talk) 17:09, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Epicgenius ? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:27, 18 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry again, I will finish this up on Friday. I did not get the above ping, and I forgot to set a reminder for myself to do this. There don't seem to be many issues with the rest of the article, though, so the review should be relatively quick. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:46, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Reception:
  • Para 1: "The Swedish Institute announced the release on the official Facebook page of Sweden" - Do we have a better source than the Facebook page itself? If not, I would remove the [self-published source] tag, since as far as I know, FAs don't usually get promoted with maintenance tags.
  • I haven't found any source yet that mentions this Facebook post. I added the tag myself because another user added it to the same citation in the Fredy Clue article. I feel like I remember reading somewhere that this tag is warranted even for appropriately used self-published sources, but I can't find that policy now, so I will follow your recommendation and remove the tag. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:18, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Para 1: "on the back cover of their annual publication, Hälsingerunor" - On the back cover of one issue, or on several issues?
  • Para 1: "Many in the media and Sweden's folk community welcomed the development" - Are there any examples aside from Jahn?
  • Para 3: "Clue welcomed the discussion, hoping that it results in greater awareness" - Could this be condensed to something like "Clue said they hoped that the discussion [of Bäckadräkten] results in greater awareness"?
That's all from me. – Epicgenius (talk) 16:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Epicgenius: Thank you for the comments! I believe they are all addressed. Do you see any other issues holding back this nomination? Dugan Murphy (talk) 01:47, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Nope. I support this FAC on prose. – Epicgenius (talk) 01:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Buidhe

[edit]

In the reception section, it looks like you have loosened WP:HQRS standards in an effort to cover more viewpoints. I don't think that's appropriate; in order to be WP:DUE on wikipedia it needs to be covered in a better source than a social media page or fringy "news" outlet. Furthermore, it's mentioned in the first sentence of that section that Necenzurovaná Pravda is a "news outlet", even though you had cited a source later on that described it as a disinformation site. In case of doubt, characterizations like "news outlet" require a secondary source. I would just avoid mentioning it because why is this fringy Czech website WP:DUE at all? (t · c) buidhe 04:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Thank you for chiming in on that. Let me know if you have any more comments about the article! Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:50, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

[edit]

All images are well-placed and licenced. ALT text seems fine. I kinda wonder about the copyright status of the costumes, though - might want to put {{costume}} tags on the Commons files. Granted, if it's based on older folk designs then they might be out of copyright. @Nikkimaria:? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 07:33, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the image review! I see this costume tag used on a bunch of Wiki articles, but not on Commons files. Aside from that, it doesn't seem like a good match for images and articles about folk costumes. I did put {{Folk costume}} at the bottom of the article, which seems very appropriate to me. By the way, I added {{PD-old-70-expired}} to File:Svenska folkdräkter, del2, Nordisk familjebok.jpg because I realized that the copyright tags it had didn't explicitly address usage in the US. You didn't bring that up, but it seemed right. Let me know if you have further thoughts about the use of those templates and the copyright tag. Dugan Murphy (talk) 18:01, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, the costume tag is intended for the 'portraying a character' meaning of costume rather than the 'folk outfit' type of costume. According to commons:COM:CLOTHES copyrightability of these is country-specific - that would be something to check into. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:08, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Are you talking about the copyright of Bäckadräkten itself? I believe all the images in the article are properly licensed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:30, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep - it would depend whether clothing is copyrightable in Sweden. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:49, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm uncertain how the Upphovsrättslag and the Mönsterskyddslag interacts with photography. I've posted the question on svwiki. If there's no response I suppose we could ask Wikimedia Sweden. Draken Bowser (talk) 12:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The law Draken Bowser brings up (thank you for your help with this, Draken Bowser!) makes clear that fashion designs can be copyrighted in Sweden. However, the sources for this article make clear that Clue and Björs intend for Bäckadräkten to be a design anyone can reproduce and modify as they see fit. They clearly have not copyrighted this design. Hopefully my point will be moot if Draken Bower finds that photographs of Swedish fashion are free of copyright entanglements. But regardless of what Draken Bowser hears from svwiki, it seems clear to me that Clue and Björs have not copyrighted the design. Dugan Murphy (talk) 22:26, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Copyright is inherent in Sweden (not claimed/registered), but can of course be waived by the creator(s). Draken Bowser (talk) 23:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for figuring that out, Draken Bowser! How would they go about doing that to the satisfaction of Wikimedia requirements? I can reach out to Fredy Clue, but I'm not sure what I'd be asking them to do. Dugan Murphy (talk) 02:31, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is guidance at WP:COPYREQ - just make sure it's clear that it's for the clothing itself. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:40, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We still don't have an answer to whether this is even necessary with how photography interacts with said laws. Let's wait a couple of days for the fine details to become clearer. Draken Bowser (talk) 11:59, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
With tomorrow being a bank holiday I don't think a formal answer to this is forthcoming before next week, if at all. Any thoughts on how to handle this? Draken Bowser (talk) 19:24, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to give it a few more days. If coordinators are getting impatient, then I could reach out to Fredy Clue and Ida Björs, asking them to send an email to VRTS releasing the copyright for the design of Bäckadräkten, as depicted in the images on Wikimedia. I anticipate them being willing to do that. Dugan Murphy (talk) 20:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Draken Bowser: I'm starting to think it is time to give up on getting an answer from svwiki, in which case it is time for me to reach out to Clue and Björs about releasing design copyright. What do you think? Dugan Murphy (talk) 19:29, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, let's start with what we know. I got a bit confused, copyright according to the mönsterskyddslag requires registration, copyright according to the upphovsrättslag is inherent. We still don't know how photography interacts with the upphovsrättslag with respect to clothing. So, uh, I guess, but like you said before, I'm not sure what we're asking them to do. Draken Bowser (talk) 20:01, 12 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have sent my request and copyright release instructions to Fredy Clue and Ida Björs, using the guidance linked above from Nikkimaria. Hopefully they will soon email VRTS and this fashion design copyright issue will be resolved. Dugan Murphy (talk) 17:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fredy Clue confirms in ticket:2024041410002428 that they and Ida Björs are conright holder of the design and approve the use in the photo. Krd 07:50, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, Krd! @Nikkimaria: Does this resolve your concern about the copyright of the costume's design? And do you see any other issues holding this image review back from passing? Dugan Murphy (talk) 11:34, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't have VRT access - what specifically does the message say about licensing? Nikkimaria (talk) 23:57, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't either, but Fredy Clue forwarded me the email they sent to VRTS. In part, it says: "I agree to publish the design, as depicted in the above-mentioned content [the images used in this article and in Fredy Clue], under the following free license: Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 4.0 International." Dugan Murphy (talk) 03:15, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that should work. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:54, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Drive-by comments

[edit]
  • "The resulting single copy". I am not sure that a single "copy" is possible. How about 'the resulting single outfit' or similar?
Recommendation accepted! Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "about the relationship between folk arts and gender more broadly". More broadly than what? I think this may read better with "more broadly" taken out.
Those two words are removed. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • "saying it provides opportunity for non-binary Swedes". Either 'an opportunity' or 'opportunities'.
"An" added. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Gog the Mild (talk) 10:05, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for these comments and for the edits you made directly. They are helpful. Dugan Murphy (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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