Talk:Bálint Balassi

Addition of unsupported claims which link Balassi to Slovak poetry

Ok, Wladthemlat and others ("unfortunately" Bizovne no longer has a right to edit on WP). I shall ask you to refrain from readding the claim of Balassi regarding Slovak poetry. There's ZERO proof of claims that Balassi wrote poetry in Slovak. I've checked the included sources myself (two of them contained in fact the same content) and NONE of them confirm that any of the Slovak poems found in the vicinity of the Hungarian poetry attributed to Balassi CAN be linked indeed to him. So please STOP with your campaign of proving the "Slovak link" at least for Balassi. -- CoolKoon (talk) 21:21, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

YOU have obviosly READ the sources not thoroughly ENOUGH as they indeed contain that INFORMATION. Namely

"Balaša je pôvodcom časovo najstaršieho zápisu slovenskej svetskej ľúbostnej poézie v Kódexe Jána Jóba Fanchaliho" (translation: Ballasi is the author of the oldest written record of Slovak secular love poetry in the Ioannes Iob de Fanchali Codex). Wladthemlat (talk) 22:01, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sorry then. Seems like Bizovne (I REALLY miss his mindless arguments SO MUCH.........NOT :P) has managed to find contradicting sources then. The source which claims Balassi's authorship of Slovak poems is a suspicious one (to say at least) anyway. I mean what the hell does a "selected regional bibliography" (výberová regionálna bibliografia) mean?! Is it a euphemism for "I quote some parts of Balassi's life while rest silent about the rest of it" or what? Also, the second (and 3rd :P) source cited by Bizovne actually contradicts the very statement you've quoted above. Let's take a look, shall we:

Konexie so sférou vysokej literárnej kultúry prezrádzajú aj texty ôsmich ľúbostných básní z obdobia renesancie, ktoré do nášho literárnohistorického vedomia vniesol Mišianikov objav z roku 1958. Ako uvádza Mišianik (Antológia staršej slovenskej literatúry, 2. vyd., s. 223), zapísal si ich do svojho rukopisného kódexu Ján Jób de Fancsal, zeman z liptovského Prosieku, a to medzi 6. marcom 1603 a 12. decembrom 1604. Týchto osem básní tvorí jedinú a pritom priestorovo kompaktnú jazykovo slovenskú enklávu v pomerne rozsiahlom kódexe (má 198 listov), ktorý je inak zaplnený literárnym materiálom maďarského pôvodu. Jeho značná časť autorsky patrí významnému predstaviteľovi maďarskej renesančnej literatúry Bálintovi Balassimu (1554 -- 1594), ktorý žil v neďalekom Hrádku. Preto nie div, že prvá otázka, ktorá sa nad týmto objavom vynorila, znela tak, či netreba aj autorstvo slovenských básnických textov vo Fanchaliho kódexe pririeknuť Balassimu (Mišianik, 1958). Na pozitívnu odpoveď sa však nenašlo dosť argumentov, a tak otázka autorstva týchto básní zostáva otvorená. (Dokonca sa zdá, že všetkých osem básní sotva možno pripísať iba jednému autorovi.) Zatiaľ nám chýba aj podrobnejšia analýza širších medziliterárnych súvislostí tohto neveľkého, ale tematicky i žánrovo uceleného korpusu básnických textov, ktorá by mohla prispieť nielen k poznaniu ich literárnej genézy, ale aj ciest, ktorými sa slovenské prostredie dostávalo do styku so sférou "vysokej" básnickej kultúry v súvekom chápaní. [...] Ak sme teda boli naozaj potešení, že zásluhou Mišianikovho objavu pribudol do dejín slovenskej literatúry 16. storočia vzácny materiál, ktorý v podobe cyklu renesančných ľúbostných básní posilnil "svetskosť" i "literárnosť" tohto obdobia, dnes (po takmer štyroch desaťročiach od onoho objavu) musíme so štipkou literárnohistoriografickej sebairónie konštatovať, že nevieme povedať dosť presne, odkiaľ sa tento materiál u nás vlastne vzal.

(Connections with the sphere of high-level culture in literature are confirmed by the texts of eight romantic poems from the Renaissance era, which has been brought back into collective awareness by Misianik's discovery from 1958. As stated by Misianik, they were recorded in his own manuscripted codex by Ján Jób de Fancsal, a lesser noble from Prosiek of Liptov, between 6 March 1603 and 12 December 1604. These eight poems constitute a lone, but structurally compact Slovak "enclave" in a fairly voluminous codex (it has 198 sheets), which's otherwise filled with literary material of Hungarian origin. Its considerable part's authorship can be attributed to the notable figure of the Hungarian Renaissance literature Bálint Balassi (1554-1594), who lived in the nearby Hrádok. Therefore it's no wonder that the first question to have been turned up after this discovery was whether the authorship of the Slovak poems in Fancsali's codex shouldn't be attributed to Bálint Balassi as well. There were insufficient arguments for an affirmative answer however, therefore the question of the authorship of the poems remains to be open. (Actually it seems that the poems could hardly be attributed even to a single author.) So far there's lacking a more thorough analysis of the relationships of these medium-scale, but thematically and genre-wise coherent ensemble of poems within (Slovak) literature itself as well, which could contribute not only to the recognition of their genesis, but could also reveal the pathways through which Slovaks came into contact with high-level culture of poetry in contemporary view. [...] If however we are to be overjoyed about the fact that Misianik's discovery has brought in some valuable material into the history of Slovak literature of the 16th century, which by cycles of Renaissance love poetry has strengthened secularism and literariness of the era, today (almost 4 decades since the discovery) we have to note with a hint of self-irony that we can't tell with certainty that where did this material actually come from.)

TLDR summary for ADHD types: Slovak scholars themselves confirm that they don't have the slightest idea about the origins of the 16th century Slovak poems which many (i.e. the Slovak nationalists) attribute to Bálint Balassi and use it as an excuse to assert (and propagate e.g. in the dubious source which Wladthemlat has quoted from) that he has something to do with Slovaks, even though (as stated above) there's absolutely zero proof for that. -- CoolKoon (talk) 22:13, 24 June 2011 (UTC)

CoolKoon forgot to assume good faith (WP:AGF) and he used Wikipedia as the soapbox so he should read the WP:NOT. The source is regular scientific monography from the expert on bibliography studies and the publisher of monography is the Zvolen regional library. Slovak language (version of Slovakized Czech language)was in the use from the 15th century at the territory of Upper Hungary - for example Zilina book (http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%96%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B0_%D0%BA%D1%9A%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%B0). So which Slovak nationalists the CoolKoon mean? --Samofi (talk) 14:12, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about? What good faith? What does the Slovak nationalists' tendency to confabulate their own history have to do with assuming good faith (towards fellow Wikipedians)? Or do you mean that the wiki policy should be extended to sources as well? I certainly hope not (otherwise some might just support their own nationalistic agenda with heavily biased and nationalist sources such as articles from beo.sk and the likes).

Let me make it clear for you: I did NOT assert that Slovak (or its predecessor called "slovakized Czech") did not exist at the time (even Fanchali's book proves the contrary). There IS proof of the usage of a Slavic language in the areas of Upper Hungary from that time (probably this Žilina book is one of them, though I couldn't tell for sure since I could only find low-resolution scans of its contents - such a shame, since it's been declared to be a Slovak cultural artifact; moreover it also proves that the so-called Slovak "nationalists" care for anything BUT Slovak cultural heritage, mostly only money and nothing else, and also that Slovak research is essentially nonexistent -). BUT all of this does NOT mean or PROVE that the Slovak poems from Fanchali's book were written by Balassi. They could've been written by ANYBODY as far as the book's concerned. And besides, the codex contains (Hungarian) poems/prose written by others than Balassi too so assuming that the "Czechoslovak" texts were written by Balassi is just wishful thinking, nothing more. You can check the codex yourself (is there such thing for the Žilina book as well? I couldn't find any....): [1] or see the facsimiles of the original manuscript: [2] (good luck with any of them, since I had a hard time reading the Hungarian texts myself in both versions).

Pre istotu ti to cele napisem aj po slovensky, aby sa nestalo, ze cirou nahodou by si mojmu anglickemu textu nerozumel: nikde som netvrdil, ze slovencina (resp. jeho predchodca menom "slovakizovana cestina") v tej dobe neexistovala. Mame rukolapne dokazy o existencii isteho slovanskeho jazyka na uzemi horneho Uhorska z tej doby (napriklad asi aj ta ziniska kniha, ale nemozem si byt isty, kedze vsade som nasiel len nekvalitne digitalne kopie s malym rozlisenim - co je velka skoda, kedze tato kniha bola vyhlasena za slovensku kulturnu pamiatku; taktiez je to dokazom toho, ze tzv. slovenskych "nacionalistov" zaujima vsetko OKREM slovenskeho kulturneho dedicstva, hlavne teda peniaze a nic ine, no a toho, ze slovensky vyskum prakticky neexistuje -). Lenze to vsetko ANI ZDALEKA neznamena a uz vobec nie je dokazom toho, ze slovenske basne z Fanchaliho kodexu boli napisane Balassim. Mohol ich fakticky napisat hocikto. A okrem toho ten kodex obsahuje aj (madarske) basne/prozu, ktore urcite nenapisal Balassi, takze konstatovat, ze "ceskoslovenske" texty v tom kodexe napisal Balassi, nie su nicim inym ako zboznym zelanim. Kludne si cekni kodex aj osobne (existuje take nieco aj pre zilinsku knihu? Ja som take teda nenasiel...) (link mas hore) alebo faksimile verziu povodneho rukopisu (vela stastia s tym, sam som mal totiz problemy s precitanim madarskeho textu v obidvoch verziach). CoolKoon (talk) 15:08, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

Recently, the claim that Balassi also wrote poems in Slovakian was added again. I am not against adding it, but it needs a proof. The current references are google search results, which is strange enough. Please, add proper sources, not search results. As CoolKoon (talk) pointed out above, the Slovak/Czech poems in Fanchali's book could be written by anybody (it does not just contains poems by Balassi alone), thus, some arguments would be needed on why do we think that these were written by Balassi himself? -- Koertefa (talk) 14:17, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Ciki

"Baron Bálint Balassi de Kékkő et Gyarmat (Hungarian: Gyarmati és kékkői báró Balassi Bálint, Slovak: Valentín Balaša; 20 October 1554 - 30 May 1594) was a Hungarian Renaissance lyric poet. He wrote mostly in Hungarian, but was also proficient in further eight languages: Latin, Italian, German, Polish, Turkish, Slovak, Croatian and Romanian. He is the founder of modern Hungarian lyric poetry and the first author of Hungarian erotic poetry."

• So he was a Hungarian poet with a Hungarian name who started to write Hungarian lyric poems and Hungarian erotic poems in Hungarian.

"George Gordon Byron, 6th Baron Byron, later George Gordon Noel, 6th Baron Byron, FRS (22 January 1788 – 19 April 1824), commonly known simply as Lord Byron, was an English poet and a leading figure in the Romantic movement. Among Byron's best-known works are the brief poems "She Walks in Beauty", "When We Two Parted", and "So, we'll go no more a roving", in addition to the narrative poems Childe Harold's Pilgrimage and Don Juan]]. He is regarded as one of the greatest British poets and remains widely read and influential. He travelled to fight against the Ottoman Empire in the Greek War of Independence, for which Greeks revere him as a national hero. He died at 36 years old from a fever contracted while in Missolonghi in Greece. Byron was celebrated in life for aristocratic excesses including huge debts, numerous love affairs, rumours of a scandalous incestuous liaison with his half-sister, and self-imposed exile. It has been speculated that he suffered from bipolar I disorder, or manic depression."

• So in the lead we learn a lot of information on Lord Byron's life, although his nationality is not overemphasized.

Iszonyatosan gáz, ciki és k-európai. (I cannot translate it.)

Borsoka (talk) 09:01, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Borsoka, for your observation. Yes, the lead can be definitely improved. I have re-added the info that he was Hungarian, since this kind of data is usually given and it may not be obvious to everyone (just see this talk page). The Hungarian and Slovak forms of his name are not that important, and a "Hungarian" can also be left out from the last sentence. There are theories according to which he also wrote love poems in Slovak (see above), e.g., that's why it may be good to mention that he mostly wrote in Hungarian. On the other hand, it would be nice to include more details about his life and works in the lead, similarly, e.g., to the article on Byron. If you have time, please, consider impoving the lead. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 11:05, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I still cannot catch the point. (1) Balassi may have or may have not written poems in Slovakian language; therefore (2) his lead must contain the world "Hungarian" in each sentence. Balassi was an excellent poet, his life was romantic - the lead should emphasize this. Yes, I am sure that there are people in the world who get excited when reading the list of the name of languages a poet spoke. However, I think 99,9999% of the users of WP who starts to read this article will give up after the second or third sentence. I am afraid I am not the editor who could improve the article or its lead because my knowledge of literature is low. De nagyon szomorú vagyok. Majdnem olyan érdekes volt az élete mint Byroné, de odáig senki sem fog eljutni, hogy elolvassa. (Sorry, I am a little bit exhausted now) Borsoka (talk) 19:04, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Borsoka, please, assume good faith: (i) it was not me who created the current lead and (ii) I never said that every sentence of the lead had to contain the word "Hungarian". Otherwise, I agree with the spirit of your comment and, though I am also not the perfect editor for the task, I may try to improve the lead in the near future, if I manage to find some time for that. Cheers, KœrteFa {ταλκ} 06:25, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I did not mean to offend you (tényleg, nagyon, nagyon sajnálom). I was really exhausted and got upset when reading the list of the languages Balassi spoke. I hope sooner or later the article will be imporved, since he was an excellent poet, a talented soldier and also a romantic hero of his age. Borsoka (talk) 07:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

OK, no worries. KœrteFa {ταλκ} 07:44, 29 August 2012 (UTC)