Talk:Ayrton Senna

Discussion on the "widely regarded as the greatest/one of the greatest" sentence in the article.

I have noticed that there seems to be disagreements on whether this sentence should read as "one of the greatest" or "the greatest." I will not get into a discussion on how good Senna was, because this is not the place to do that. I am not sure if any of you have noticed, but if you look at Wikipedia articles of every other successful Formula One driver in history, you would have noticed that these "widely regarded as the greatest/one of the greatest" sentences have been removed from all of those articles, because it is regarded as puffery, not factual, and more of an opinion which not every individual agrees with. If you read this page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Lewis_Hamilton), you will find that we came to an agreement that this opinionated statement should be removed from the Hamilton/Schumacher/Vettel/Alonso articles and articles of other successful drivers, because Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia. Articles should be as neutral as possible, and not biased/opinionated. Let me know your thoughts on this situation, but I believe that these "widely regarded as one of the greatest/greatest" statements should be removed to maintain a sense of neutrality, and not allowing biases to get in the way of an encyclopaedia. McLarenMercedes22 (talk) 18:32, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, this doesn't belong in the lead. His achievements can speak for themselves in the lead. Subjective assessments by commentators can go in appropriate locations throughout the body of the text. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 19:19, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

I agree that commentators' opinions should not be in the lead and that it should be as neutral as possible. Carfan568 (talk) 19:44, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

If the the "widely regarded as the greatest/one of the greatest" sentences have been removed from the Wikipedia articles of every other successful Formula One driver in history, then, for the sake of consistency, it should be removed from Senna's too Koppite1 (talk) 13:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Drivers vote Senna the greatest ever

In December 2009, Ayrton Senna was named the best driver of all time in the selection of his fellow drivers conducted by the British magazine Autosport. 217 current and former F1 pilots took part in the selection, collecting a total of 9,194 Formula 1 appearances and a total of 270 victories. https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/80517/drivers-vote-senna-the-greatest-ever Ayrton Senna, also had the nickname 'Rain Man' for a great ride in rainy conditions, and there is no such thing. There is also no to this day he holds the record on the most demanding track Monaco Grand Prix, which he won 6 times, more than other drivers. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monaco_Grand_Prix

Can anyone put this in an article, I can't because it's semi-protected. Thank you78.1.162.104 (talk) 11:44, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Here are some more quotes from Ayrton Senna

Ayrton Senna, among the many records he left behind, remained in the history of Formula 1 as one of the best drivers in qualifying of all time thanks to 65 first starting positions in 161 races (on average he started every third race first). The record was unbroken twelve years after his death until Michael Schumacher broke that record in the 2006 San Marino race, in his 236th career race. In addition to great success in qualifying, Senna is often referred to as the Lord of Monaco.

He once described a strange feeling that overwhelmed him occasionally during qualifying. His view of that feeling was like driving in a tunnel in a state of sleep, and he said this after qualifying for the 1988 Monaco Grand Prix: Wikiquote “... the last qualifying round. I already had secured first place at the start in half a second, and then a full second. I suddenly became two seconds faster than anyone, including my colleague from the same team with the same car. And then I realized I wasn’t driving consciously. I drove the car by some instinct, only I was in another dimension. It was like a tunnel. Not just like that tunnel next to the hotel but like the whole race is a tunnel. I just went and went, more and more and more and more. I was far above the limit, but I always found ways to go even higher. Then something just knocked me out. Somehow I woke up and realized I was in a different atmosphere than usual. My reaction was to brake urgently and slow down the car. I drove slowly to the pits and didn’t go out that day anymore. It scared me because I was far beyond conscious. It rarely happens, but I keep those memories deep inside because it's an important part of my memories. ”

The 2004 San Marino Grand Prix marked the tenth anniversary of Senna's death. At the time, Gerhard Berger, Senna's colleague at McLaren between 1990 and 1992, said what it was like to drive qualifying with Senna: Wikiquote “I remember one weekend in Imola when I went out and set up the first time. Then he came out, he was a little faster. I came out, I was faster than him. He came out, he was faster than me, and so back and forth, ping-pong, all the way to the end of qualifying and the last set of tires, when he was sitting in his car and I in mine, when he came out, he came to me and said: Listen, this is going to get dangerous now !, and I replied: Yes, and? Go!"

This rivalry can perhaps be attributed not only to Ayrton’s determination and desire to win even in qualifying, but also to Berger and Senna’s friendship. Berger is also remembered for his famous statement: He taught me a lot about this sport; I taught him to laugh.

It is a translation from the Croatian Wikipedia about Ayrton Senna (In English) ,you can also put it,Bye 78.1.162.104 (talk) 11:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

You should probably find a blog for this material. Wikipedia is not a repository of anything anyone has ever said about a notable person. Please read previous discussions about describing anyone as "the greatest" at anything. Britmax (talk) 12:49, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

It says so here i found source https://www.foxsports.com.au/motorsport/formula-one/f1-mythbusting-ayrton-sennas-epic-1988-monaco-gp-pole-position-lap/news-story/4d6a7c605350e1f016018a6c5f185379 as the source says it's an audio recording and it's just a fraction of the audio recording in the source, and here's a little bit more written what he said , I didn't say that he is the best driver of all time, but drivers who drive f1, and above is the source where it says78.1.162.104 (talk) 15:48, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

Autocorse Driver of the Year

"a uniquely flawed genius and an intense egocentric, absolutely matchless when it comes to wet weather genius and yet sometimes afflicted by an unsettled mood". Where does this quote come from? I can't find this quote outside Wikipedia (but I reckon someone here could). A lot of websites just copy off of Wikipedia so obviously we can't cite many of those websites. At the moment I will put a . Klrfl Talk! 00:43, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

It is likely in the 1993 edition of Autocourse. I don't have that annual and the online archive tops out at 1984 currently. but someone else might. FozzieHey (talk) 10:11, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

The editor's description of Senna in the "Top Ten Drivers" section of Autocourse 1993-94 contains many of the same words, although not in exactly the order specified above. He writes: "... His wins at Interlagos, Donington Park and Suzuka served to confirm his matchless genius in the wet ... His straightforward errors at Hockenheim ... and Monza ... seemed symptomatic of his unsettled mood ... the controversial manner in which he struck Eddie Irvine ... provided yet another disturbing insight into Senna's extraordinarily intense egocentricity and uniquely flawed genius." DH85868993 (talk) 09:36, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Could you amend the current quote in the article to match this with a citation? Thanks for looking into it! FozzieHey (talk) 10:00, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Done. I left out the "unsettled mood" bit because I didn't think it was particularly important. DH85868993 (talk) 10:46, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Ayrton Senna/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zwerg Nase (talk · contribs) 11:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Will fill in my comments later. Zwerg Nase (talk) 11:37, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Some quick thoughts before the full review:

• Photo from 1984 Nürburgring race should be where the it is mentioned in the prose.
• Legacy: "This was prior to the release of the BAFTA Award winning documentary named after him, Senna, directed by Asif Kapadia. In this documentary broadcast only once by the BBC, Senna is named the number one driver ever, by fellow racing drivers. A StudioCanal, Working Title Films, and Midfield Films documentary production, Senna was released to critical acclaim."
  • 1) dead link for the source, needs an archive link.
  • 2) It is unclear to me if the Top Gear piece was only broadcast once or the documentary. Wasn't the documentary released in cinemas? Needs to be clearer.
• Legacy: Missing the information that Williams removed the Senna logo in 2022 (Source).

Zwerg Nase (talk) 16:55, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

@Zwerg Nase Do you still have time to finish this review? I can help you if needed! Oltrepier (talk) 16:40, 19 March 2023 (UTC)

@Oltrepier: Sorry for the long delay, real life interfered :( If you want to help, feel free to, I will try to get to it over the course of the week :) Zwerg Nase (talk) 07:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Zwerg Nase No worries at all!

I didn't want to "steal" your review, so I just followed your suggestions and made a few fixes accordingly. I hope they can help bring the article closer to GA status: Ayrton definitely deserves it. : ) Oltrepier (talk) 14:00, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Review

General

• Several sourcing problems:
  • Archive links are given in two different formats (some have the "the original" linked, some have "archived" linked), this should ideally be consistent.
  • I would also advise to use the "trans-title" parameter for Portuguese (and other non-English) sources.
  • Page numbers missing for book sources. Also, I would strongly suggest using Template:Sfn for all of those and linking those to the bibliography section (see below).
  • There is no bibliography or further reading sections, both should be added.
• Dashes are not used consistently, sometimes en-dashes, sometimes em-dashes. ("– we could see it from the tyre marks –" as opposed to "—third at the British and Portuguese Grands Prix—"; and then there's "— which took place one day after Brazil was eliminated from the 1986 FIFA World Cup by France⁠ —" making it the third different variant due to spaces next to the em-dashes)

Lead

• I don't think the mention of Williams in the first paragraph is necessary, none of his other teams are mentioned there.
• Would suggest a comma after "winning five races".
• Summarizing his legacy on the sport would be a good addition to the lead.

Early life and career

• Considering the source is not the best anyway, the information about him being left-handed could just be taken out.
• "Overall, his grades amounted up to 68%." - I do not consider this relevant, also difficult to pinpoint how good or bad that is, so better leave it out.
• "Ayrton Senna – The Right to Win (2004)" - what kind of source is that? A film? Please use the appropriate templates to add all the relevant information-
• "before retiring after colliding with a rival" - rephrase needed, the two contradicting prepositions right after one another read weirdly.
• Citation needed after "Van Diemen team".
• "As da Silva is the most common Brazilian surname, he adopted his mother's maiden name, Senna." - it sounds like he decided to change the name under which he competed, but I seem to recall that he was named Senna already during the Karting WC, from what I remember from the Senna movie. So maybe this information is in the wrong place? Also, as far as I know, Portuguese just as Spanish has both parents names in the surnames of the child, if that is the case, then "adopting" is also the wrong term to use. (For instance, the article Portuguese name says "Usually, the maternal surnames precede the paternal ones, but the opposite is also possible.", meaning that Senna was probably always his first surname).
• "Ayrton Senna'sportscar cameo" - missing space in the source title.

Formula One career

• See citation needed marked in first paragraph.
• "and certainly on his own terms" - I don't know what this adds to the article, it's also complete conjecture.
• I feel like the 1984 Monaco Grand Prix can need some more sources, there are certainly plenty out there.
• "Stefan Bellof was catching both at the same rate" - since Senna was faster than Prost, Bellof can hardly have been catching both at the same rate. Rephrasing necessary.
• Put the source for the Symonds interview after the quotation.
• Source needed for Chapman statement.
• There needs to be consistency on how "Formula 1/One" is written out, both are present in the article.
• Portugal 1985:
  • Why is the source behind "Alboreto" and not behind "Tambay"?
  • The Grand Slam also includes leading every lap, which is not mentioned.
  • Grand Slam (Formula One) should be wikilinked here.
• Wikilink the 1985 French GP.
• (His determination to take pole at the Monaco Grand Prix had infuriated Alboreto and Niki Lauda; Senna had set a fast time early and was accused of deliberately baulking the other drivers by running more laps than necessary, a charge he rejected, though the accusations continued in Canada when drivers accused him of running on the racing line when on his slow down lap forcing others on qualifiers to move off line and lose time). - If the sentence is this long, then it does not belong in parantheses.
• JPS is wikilinked twice.
• add a colon after "admitted".
• Detroit 1986: I cannot find the information about this being the first time he picked up the flag or the reference to the cursing in the source given.

More to come later. Zwerg Nase (talk) 12:46, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

• Patient Zero and Zwerg Nase, any status on this review? No activity pushing a month, no edits by the nominator to the review, article has a number of maintenance tags, etc. I'm tempted to close the nomination as a fail. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 01:05, 14 May 2023 (UTC)

@Gonzo fan2007: Indeed, I am afraid I will have to fail this review since no reaction has come to my review so far. Zwerg Nase (talk) 14:21, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Zwerg Nase, I think that is best. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 14:39, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Gonzo_fan2007 and Zwerg Nase: I must admit I lost track of this nomination; I am sorry for not responding sooner. I would be more than happy for you to assess the GA and I will happily work towards fixing the issues you have found. Patient Zero^talk 22:11, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Pinging Oltrepier too as they took an interest! Patient Zero^talk 22:12, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Patient Zero and Zwerg Nase: I'd be more than happy to take over the review! Gonzo_fan2007 Would I have to start from scratch and create a new page? Oltrepier (talk) 08:26, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Oltrepier: Yes, I am afraid a new review is needed. Zwerg Nase (talk) 11:20, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Unreferenced paragraphs

Hello Carguy1701, I saw that you removed the citation needed tags recently added to unreferenced paragraphs. Thanks for your explanation that the information in these paragraphs "is a matter of record and has been for YEARS". However, I don't think that this is sufficient. According to the policy WP:V, all material challenged or likely to be challenged needs inline citations. It also suggests that "citation needed" tags are added to highlight the problem (see WP:FAIL). Certain information is excluded from this requirement, as stated in the policy Wikipedia:No_original_research#What_is_not_original_research. But these exclusions do not seem to apply here. For example, they do not cover claims like However, the biggest incident of the year happened at the Italian Grand Prix at Monza, His 13 pole positions also beat the record of nine held by Nelson Piquet (1984), At this point, Senna had already lost around 4.5 litres of blood, constituting 90% of his blood volume, and This event is notable for being the stage for the last on-track duel between Alain Prost and Ayrton Senna.. Since this article is a good article nominee, it is likely that this will also be pointed out during the review. Please let me know if you think that there is a misunderstanding of the relevant policies on my part. Phlsph7 (talk) 09:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Looked to me like you just picked a random article and added 'citation needed' tags to it; I'll admit that I didn't see the ones further down the page, but as far as I can tell, none of the stuff you called out as needing citation needs to be cited; all are matters of record, especially the parts about the 1988 Italian Grand Prix and Senna's blood loss after the crash at Tamburello. Carguy1701 (talk) 14:26, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I've asked for advice at Wikipedia:No_original_research/Noticeboard#Ayrton_Senna. Phlsph7 (talk) 21:07, 16 March 2023 (UTC)

It seems they are in need of citations since their verifiability has been challenged. See also WP:BURDEN. I also made a short search about the claim concerning the 90% blood loss and I couldn't verify it. Phlsph7 (talk) 08:45, 18 March 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ayrton Senna/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TompaDompa (talk · contribs) 22:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

This is a WP:QUICKFAIL based on criterion 3: It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include {{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags. The current version has no fewer than three orange banners at the top and twelve {{citation needed}} tags throughout. These issues need to be resolved before renomination. TompaDompa (talk) 22:36, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Grave Visitors

It's unclear if that claim was true when it was made in 2007. the source doesn't at all state where it got that information or any numbers. In 2017 the estimates were 50-100 a day [1]. To be generous that would mean a maximum of 365,000 a year. Graceland receives over 600,000 a year [2], Marylin Monroe it's not clear, thousands is an estimate I've seen, as for JFK, Arlington receives 4 million a year, with a 'significant' number going to see his grave. Elivs alone nearly doubles Senna's visitor count so the claim was removed. 2A06:5902:2E1C:5B00:9D3D:4654:E727:D995 (talk) 08:15, 26 October 2024 (UTC)