Talk:Axel jump

Capitalization

The "A" in Axel is always capitalized: [1] ("Jump Guidelines" 3rd paragraph), [2]. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Yesopenilno (talk • contribs).

I don't think the given link a very definitive reference. All dictionaries I've seen list "axel" as a common noun written in lower case (ref: http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=axel, http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/axel, Random House Webster's College Dictionary). Julesd 20:51, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I went ahead and corrected the capitalization. Julesd 21:04, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

The Axel (and Lutz) jump is named after a person: Axel Paulson (Alois Lutz), and would be capitalized. Furthermore, the US Figure Skating rulebook as well as the ISU Web site (ref: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-168607-185825-90889-0-file,00.pdf) capitalizes both. Vesperholly 08:58, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

If that's the case, then all the articles pertaining to jumps will require capitalization, as they all appear to be named after people (excepting, of course, the loop/toe loop/flip). But if the rulebook capitalizes it, then that seems viable enough for capitalizing it here and enforcing the same standard for all articles of this nature (which should be done promptly, even if it is 3 years after this conversation started)
--K10wnsta (talk) 07:53, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Tonya Harding

The article alludes to Kimmie Meisner as being the first American woman to complete a triple axel in an American competition and mentions Tonya Harding having done one in an international one. This is false. Tonya Harding landed one in an American competition and was the first American woman to do so. It was the 1991 US Nationals. Could someone correct this please. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hilljayne (talk • contribs) 12:55, 19 February 2010 (UTC)

Cheated jumps

Let's not get into arguing in the main article about whose triple axel attempts were cheated and whose weren't. In particular, my recollection is that both Nakano's and Nelidina's attempts were a lot more cheated than Meissner's, so I don't think it's appropriate to pick on Meissner. The important point is that, cheated or not, all of the jumps mentioned were ratified by the event referee. Dr.frog 13:04, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Quadruple Axel?

This YouTube video suggests that the featured man accomplished a quadruple axel. I have no way of "frame-by-framing" the video, so I can't double check. But I wonder if quadruple axels have been accomplished, just not in competition. If that's the case, the article should be modified. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DL7J79vm5BE SeanAhern 13:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

The video's fake. Kolindigo 15:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quad_%28figure_skating%29 This article cites a reference to someone called 'Kurt Browning' who did one in 1988. I guess either this article or that one needs to be changed, but I'm new, sorry if this reply is not how it's meant to be done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MisterRory (talk • contribs) 00:58, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

There are six different figure skating jumps. The axel is one of them. No one has ever completed a quadruple axel jump in competition. Kurt Browning performed a quadruple toe loop. Of the six jumps, only the quadruple toe loop and the quadruple salchow have been completed in competition. Kolindigo (talk) 15:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

"Skaters will often perform a triple or quadruple axel..." There's no such thing. At least not yet. 75.15.167.170 (talk) 00:38, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Miki Ando and the triple axel

Per WP:Verifiability, "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material. Any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a reliable source, which should be cited in the article."

No sources have been provided that indicate Ando landed a triple axel at the 2002 Junior Grand Prix Final, or in any other competition. The anonymous user who keeps adding this claims they've seen it on video, but I've also seen video of Ando at this event in which her axel is clearly only a double, and not a triple. Moreover, reliable published sources indicate that Ando has only landed triple axels in practice so far. See, for instance, Ando's ISO biography; and Golden Skate article. The lengthy article on the 2002 Junior Grand Prix Final in the March 2003 issue of Blades On Ice contains 3 or 4 paragraphs on Ando's performance but mentions only the quad salchow; if she'd landed a triple axel at this event, too, it surely would have been notable enough to have been mentioned. Dr.frog 22:20, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

I can also find no evidence that Ando landed a triple axel at 2003 World Juniors. The Blades On Ice article on that competition mentions only Mai Asada's unsuccessful attempt. Again, if Ando had landed it, it would have been notable enough to deserve mention. Dr.frog 23:26, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

The 2018/19 ISU Media Guide (https://www.isu.org/media-centre/guides/media/17522-figure-skating-media-guide-2018-19/file), p. 14, states that Midori Ito completed the triple axel at the 1989 World Championships. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:46, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

a throw triple Axel

A throw triple Axel is mentioned but not described among the variations.--Wetman (talk) 23:49, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

The lead is just sentences copied from the body

I noticed that the lead of this article is just sentences copied exactly from different parts of the article. This is not the way it's supposed to be. I should probably fix it since I mentioned it, but I'll try to do it later.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 04:25, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Listing completed Axels

Hi everyone, so editors have, every time a female skater successfully completes a triple Axel in international competition, been adding the skaters' names and number of times it's been done. Now that it's become more common, I'm wondering if we should do that. I mean, as of this date (8 Nov. 2021), 17 women have successfully competed the triple Axel in competition, and the number will increase, especially as we get closer to the Olympics. I propose, then, that we cease making such a list, as has been done for other jumps. In other words, we don't list every skater who has successfully completed the easier and more commonly-performed jumps, such as the toe loop; we just list the first person who completed it. Then we can add that women completing the triple Axel has been more common in recent years, and then support it with an appropriate reference. I'm happy to make this change if my proposal gets support. Thanks to all who have been diligent as more women increase their technical abilities in figure skating.Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 19:38, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree. The list is so long now it looks rather out of place. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 05:21, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

Okay, we got one agreement, so I went ahead and made the change described above. The October 2020 date is the latest triple axel in which the source stated the number successfully completed by women thus far. Please, if any source names a more recent completion, update it at that time. Thanks. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 21:48, 26 December 2021 (UTC)

The second paragraph of the article contains "As of 2021, nineteen women have successfully completed the triple Axel in competition.", whereas the Later section contains "As of October 2020, twelve women have successfully completed the triple Axel in international competition". Both are probably true, but it's a bit confusing to have both these sentences. I don't think the distinction between international and (international + national + other?) competitions is useful enough to have both these two sentences.

An older version seems to have sources for most of these 19 women. If someone knowledgeable can verify this, then maybe the "As of October 2020" line can be removed? Arjunarul (talk) 05:43, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Might want to consider the same for female skaters landing 3A at the Olympics. Abbyjjjj96 (talk) 02:01, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

4A< is done today!

Very nice, even though he fall on it, the judges accepted it being 4A. https://results.isu.org/results/season2122/owg2022/FSKMSINGLES-----------FNL-000100--_JudgesDetailsperSkater.pdf Does < means it was only triple or what? Valery Zapolodov (talk) 07:59, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Okay, so first to do 4A< was Artur Dmitriev. Valery Zapolodov (talk) 08:38, 10 February 2022 (UTC)

Artur Dmitriev’s attempts at 4A were all downgraded (listed as 4A<<) the 4A< indicates the jump was underrotated but it still is ratified as the first 4A. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.224.36.189 (talk) 13:24, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

Sorry above comment about Artur Dmitriev is me, I’m still figuring out how to use this. Yuzuru Hanyu’s 4A< should be listed as the first ratified 4A not Artur Dmitriev, to clarify. Meilin90 (talk) 13:28, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

@Meilin90: @Valery Zapolodov: This misinformation has been spread around so wide, so I will explain here. Everyone is excited with the term "certified", but what is it exactly? If you google, the term has never been used before in regards to newly landed jumps, it's always "cleanly landed" or "ratified". Japanese media made that term to respect Hanyu's progress - which he deserves - though he still has yet landed the 4A. Based on their explanation here, "credited" means the attempted jump was firstly credited (or given BV of) 4A, before the BV was reduced because of UR. Or in short, it's not given downgraded to 3A (where the jump is still listed as 4A<< but its BV is same as BV of 3A). But does it mean "credited" equals to "first landed/ratified"? No, the written BV 4< is 10, compared to full BV of 4A which is 12.5. All of first jumps listed got at least their full BV to be recognized. Plus, if it's indeed equal and Hanyu's attempt counted as "landed", ISU would have written special news about it on their website (like they did for his 4Lo here) and Guiness' Book of Records would have given him the certificate, but the reality is now there are no major news calling it "landed".

And it would be so unfair to previous first jumps if we include an UR as a First, because that would mean the first 4Lo wouldn't be by Hanyu, but Kevin Reynolds who underrotated and fell on the jump in 2012.

So, in short, Hanyu's attempt is the closest we ever get to 4A so far because it's the first attempt that's not downgraded (as I added to this Wiki page), but he hasn't landed it yet. But he's so close though. So let's be patient and wait for him to achieve that. I bet no media, either Japanese or Western would shut up about it. - Yolo4A4Lo (talk) 16:37, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with Yolo. I think the evidence is clear that Hanyu (or anyone else) has not yet successfully completed (or landed, as you're using the term here) a 4A. It's disappointing that he wasn't able to do it during the Olympics, as was his goal, but as Yolo says, it's coming and he'll be the one to do it. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2022 (UTC)

Brush-up of the article

I added this article to the scope of the Yuzuru Hanyu task force and added a section about Hanyu's Axel jump, which is notable for its very high quality, variety, and unmatched consistency over more than a decade.

I revamped the structure of the article a bit, moving the table of firsts to the bottom of the page. It is generally discouraged to place statistics tables in the prose section of an article, unless it is essential for the understanding of the surrounding text, which is not the case here. I also made the formatting of cited books and journals uniform across the article. Online sources yet need some adjustments, I will tackle that task later. I plan to bring the full article to good or featured status as soon as my work on Hanyu's article series is completed. Henni147 (talk) 15:12, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Henni147, I agree with moving the "Firsts" chart, but I disagree with this addition about Hanyu's 4A. I mean, why not include content about Ilia Malinin's 4A, or Midori Ito's 3A, or Tanya Harding's 3A? Articles about figure skating elements don't usually include commentary about the performance/execution of them by individual skaters. It also violates the WP:UNDUE policy. I think this content better belongs in Hanyu's bio or perhaps even better, a new short article ("Yuzuru Hanyu's quad Axel jump"?) or a longer one about his execution of different elements. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:45, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: I agree that the current distribution in the article is out of proportion. I plan to expand this article with more information about the Axel jump of other skaters, including those that you mentioned. I genuinely think that it's important for readers to know not only the skaters who achieved firsts, but also those with the best quality Axel in history like Brian Orser who was named "Mr Triple Axel" in his time. It doesn't do him any justice to just mention him as the first to land the triple Axel at the Olympics. He did way more than that.

Update: I stored the section about Hanyu's Axel jump in a sandbox for alternative uses. But I definitely insist on mentioning his name in this article, given his long list of contributions regarding this jump. Henni147 (talk) 17:04, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Argh, I had just written a long response to you, Henni, and then you go and do exactly what I was going to suggest! ;) No, I'm good with the changes you've made. I did a little more restructuring and tightened up the prose a bit; let me know what you think, please. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 17:53, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

@Figureskatingfan: Oh, I am sorry that I preempted your response >_< Your changes look good at first glance. I will take a closer look later.

I had just formatted all inline citations of the article yesterday, when Wikipedia crashed. So I can start the work from zero, but that's life. Henni147 (talk) 09:01, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Extended content

No worries, edit conflicts happen all the time. Wikipedia crashing, not so much, but you have my sympathies. My advice to you: save early and save often. That'll bring up your edit count, anyway. Not that you need help with that, but one of the unfair aspects of being an editor is that there are those of us who add more content and characters, and there are those who do maintainance edits that pull up their edit counts, and the maintance folks get more credit because high edit counts are valued more. But anyway... ;) Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 16:32, 18 January 2023 (UTC) @Figureskatingfan: My main motivation as an author is to improve the quality of figure skating articles, including Hanyu's series. Hence, it is more important to me to keep the article history at reasonable length to find important previous versions more easily. I don't mind if my edit count is lower. But yes, I will save bigger changes in smaller portions in the future make sure that they don't get lost as it happened this time. Henni147 (talk) 16:44, 18 January 2023 (UTC) Of course, I feel the same way, but that's because we're content editors. But there's no reason you shouldn't get credit for your hard work. You need to go read these chapters from Wikipedia @ 20: [3] and [4]. They will help you develop your editing philosophy, which is something I've been thinking about for the last few months and which I think is important for us who are writing about neglected topics like figure skating. It sounds like you're well on your way, anyway. Christine (Figureskatingfan) (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2023 (UTC)