Talk:Asturian language

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Examples

It seems strange to me that there are no examples of words or phrases of Asturianu on this page.

Some examples I could suggest might be:
Hasta luedín instead of Hasta Luego for "see you later"
Una Pumarada for an apple orchard
figos instead of higos for figs
pachuchu for poorly
but I don't want to add these myself as they are just things I've picked up from my neighbours ( I live in Pola de Siero) and so I don't know if spelling is correct.Chickeninapram (talk) 23:45, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think "pachuchu" is a general Spanish term. At least it is also used in Alacant. - Francis Tyers · 10:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hasta luedín it's not written correctly, It's Hasta lluegín. I also live in Siero and can confirm Pumarada is an apple orchard, and a Pumar is an apple tree. Fueyo221 (talk) 17:47, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I´m asturian and I speak asturian. Some examples are: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.179.126.140 (talk) 10:53, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Greetings

Ta llueu -- Hasta Luego -- See you

Buenes nueches -- Buenas noches -- Good night

Bonos díes -- Buenos días -- Good morning

Months

Xineru -- Enero -- January

Febreru -- Febrero -- February

Marzu -- Marzo -- March

Abril -- Abril -- April

Mayu -- Mayo -- May

Xunu -- Junio -- June

Xunetu -- Julio -- July

Agostu -- Agosto -- August

Setiembre -- Septiembre -- September

Ochobre -- Octubre -- October

Payares -- Noviembre -- November

Avientu -- Diciembre -- December

Basic vocabulary

Home -- Hombre -- Man

Muyer -- Mujer -- Woman

Guah.e -- Niño -- Child

Alphabet

It´s the latin alphabet except two especial characters: l.l ( ché vaqueira ) and h. ( hache aspirá ).

See you the spanish or asturian version for more information.

Bye!!

Bable vs Asturian

Bable and Asturian are different names, sometimes thay have been a similar sense, sometimes not, that you can be serching for. In this sense, a 40% of Asturians believe that their are not similar ones, so it could be necessary having different entries. --Auslli (talk) 17:16, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this is an Encyclopedia and this names are used in different terms by the asturian people, fact which can be verified in the studys done about this field. So, we have to preserver this entry --Orhere (talk) 07:38, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that the information from Bable should be merged here then left as a redirect. "Asturian" is the term used by the majority of English sources and "Bable" is stated as its name here. We should stick to what English sources call the language, not what the native sources call it. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 15:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, and besides, the language, or perhaps languages, however referred to, is "of Asturias" and thereby "Asturian language" is de facto correctChickeninapram (talk) 15:39, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think both must keep --KokkaShinto (talk) 17:21, 2 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

People often used in asturias likely to ridicule the Asturian language. The correct name is Asturian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.179.126.140 (talk) 10:56, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge proposal

I'm officially proposing a merger between this article, Asturian language, and Bable because the articles are about the same subject. Even on the Asturian WP, they are the same article – ast:Bable redirects to ast:Asturianu. See the official WP policy on rationale for a merger. These pages seem to qualify. JohnnyPolo24 (talk) 15:39, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My vote: Bable article should be deleted and left as redirect to this article. Asturian language is both the filological and popular term, and it is also the English name for the language. Instead, bable is an erudite, non-traditional term that was popular during the 1970s and that has often been used as a pejorative slur since the 1980s. As I said, Bable article should be proposed for deletion and all the info about the language should be listed under Asturian language. · Ravenloft · ^talk 13:12, 20 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, i'm a member of Asturian WP . The article ast:Bable redirects to ast:Asturianu because the correct form is Asturianu. As Raveloft user said, bable is colloquial, and not the common form. It has no sense to continue calling it Bable. For example: the Asturian Language is regulated by Academy of the Asturian Language, (not Academy of the Bable Language) --Astur (talk) 15:24, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Asturianu" is not the official name

After having read the Statute of Autonomy of [the http://www.asturias.es/Asturias/DOCUMENTOS%20EN%20PDF/PDF%20DE%20SITUACIONES/Estatuto.pdf Region Asturias] on the Asturian government's website, I realized that the official name of the language is not Asturian but Bable. Therefore, although I think Asturian is the English term, we should give priority to the official denomination Bable when referring to the local language name. --Eldrewitsch (talk) 14:19, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

People often used in asturias likely to ridicule the Asturian language. The correct name is Asturian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.179.126.140 (talk) 10:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Asturianu" IS the official name

Since 1998, Asturian is also an official name. See "Ley del Principado de Asturias 1/98 del 23 de marzo, de Uso y Promoción del Bable/Asturiano" ("Law of the Principality of Asturias 1/98, march 23th, of Use and Promotion of Bable / Asturian") [1]: Article 1: Traditional language. Bable/Asturian, as the traditional language of Asturias, shall be protected. -- · Ravenloft · ^talk 15:13, 15 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This law holds rarely by the Spanish government. There is a lot of discrimination towards the Asturian language. This is well explained in the wikipedia in Spanish and Asturian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.179.126.140 (talk) 08:30, 2 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Eldrewitsch for your contribution, but you are wrong. There are two terms that refer to the Asturian language. One ot them is "Asturian" and the other is bable, but bable is an obsolete expression. Even the Government of the Principality of Asturias in its web official site, http://www.asturias.es does not use the term bable, but Asturianu. So, the article bable would be deleted or redirected to Asturian --Astur (talk) 15:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Asturian Language

What kind of joke is that 'Asturian dialect' your Wikipedia talks about? The Asturian is a language, and here you guys have got some examples: http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Asturian/Asturian.htm / http://www.academiadelallingua.com/ / http://www.romaniaminor.net/gramatiques/gramatica_asturiana.pdf and even in the 'Asturian Bylaw' (article nº4) you have got more proofs ( http://www.asturias.es/Asturias/descargas/imagen_institucional/estatuto.pdf ). Enough of such errors, which affect all those who fight for the survival of Asturian culture. 188.78.127.115 (talk) 22:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Why ()

Why appears () in the article's name? --Sahaquiel9102 (talk) 01:36, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Just waiting for it to be moved. — kwami (talk) 01:59, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Deletion of official data

On March 4th,2013, Kwamikagami contributed with this data: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asturian_language&diff=542120363&oldid=542119870. Data are extracted from Ethnologue http://www.ethnologue.com/language/ast. On March 19th, 2013 these data were deleted: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Asturian_language&diff=prev&oldid=545470195 I don't see any reason to delete this data. As you can see, the alternate names of asturian are: Asturian-Leonese, Asturianu, Astur-Leonese.

Location: Asturias Princedom, west Cantabria and Leon, north Castilla-Leon. Montañes dialect (Spanish with Asturian influence): Cantabria and Las Peñamelleras. Also in Portugal.

Dialects: Central Asturian (Bable), Eastern Asturian, Leonese (Lleones), Montañes, Western Asturian.

I don't understand why this data are changed, when they are disscussed at Astur-Leonese languages talk page. I'm trying to work in the article to clarify all points, and is not good to do steps backwards... Let's talk before delete data. --Astur (talk) 12:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no such thing as official data on languages, there are different sources and that's all. The reason behind the deletion is explained in the next section, Astur-Leonese. Jotamar (talk) 17:36, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Astur-Leonese

This discussion is related to the one going on at Talk:Astur-Leonese languages. Basicly, if you consider that Asturian and Leonese is the same language, the consensual name for it is Astur-Leonese (or alternatively Asturian-Leonese) and not just Asturian. The fact that the present page included the Leonese linguistic varieties as Asturian and at the same time completely forgot to mention the peculiarities of those varieties, is a clear case of cheap linguistic imperialism. For any information that affects the dialects in both Asturias and León, there is already the page Astur-Leonese languages. Jotamar (talk) 15:27, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

That article covers a different topic, as it also includes Mirandese. Not the best names, I know, but they seem to be what we're stuck with. (I'd much rather have Asturian–Mirandese, but people have objected to that.) — kwami (talk) 18:06, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, kwami, can you please correct the article? I've no problem in that. --Astur (talk) 18:09, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

By "correct", do you mean move it to the proposed name? — kwami (talk) 06:36, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No, I meant to correct/delete "Mirandese" from this article. Jotamar didn't like the mention of Mirandese in this article. Mirandese is Western "Asturleonese group" like Leonese and Western Asturian. It's placed in the south, close to Leonese so I consider mention it there. It has sense. --Astur (talk) 17:46, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Mirandese can have its own place within Leonese article. And I'll try to focuses in this article, the fact that Leonese is a variant with its own traits (which it's true, of course), and only mention Transitional varieties like Eonavian and Montañés. I think it's a good meeting point. --Astur (talk) 18:19, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if Mirandese is treated as a dialect of Leonese, then we solve half the problem. — kwami (talk) 06:37, 21 March 2013 (UTC) .[reply]

~~P.D. I'll do it myself. --Astur (talk) 17:47, 21 March 2013 (UTC)~~ Deleted from Asturian article

. --Astur (talk) 18:35, 21 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Asturian is spoken in north of León

As you can see in http://www.ethnologue.com/map/PTES

You're confusing the terms. This article talks about the Asturian, and its 3 variants: Western, Central and Eastern. The Leonese is included in the western area variant. This variant, it's called 'Asturian' in the north, and 'Leonese' in the South, due to administrative reasons. Leonese is a endonym with distinctive features and of course, (I do not deny that) it deserves its own article, why not? No problem in that. But what can not be denied is the fact that the Asturian Central and Eastern Asturian, is spoken in northern León and Cantabria. I understand your position about the Mirandese. But I'm not Ethnologue, and I'm not smarter than they are. I am translating data from the Spanish wikipedia, that, in my opinion, it's very good meeting point. Sure you know the content of the spanish articles, because you are a user of the Spanish Wikipedia, and as you will see the articles are very acceptable. Sorry of my poor level of English, but... your references to "imperialism", are a bit offensive. I'm not going to launch a war edition, so please, stop. Let's talk. --Astur (talk) 17:50, 20 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Not neutral point of view

In this article, the Asturian Language is related as if it were a language developed of Latin, very different to the Spanish and belonging to an autonomous linguistic Dominium. It is not neutral point of view in my opinion. I encourage to read the testimony of different persons in the Talk Spanish WP, who never listened to speak anyone person in the language which is related in the article.

Anyway, I would like appoint out some statements included in it, which are not accurate:

1) The ‘Fuero de Aviles’ is not written in Asturian, this legal text was written in an occitan with a few expressions in western asturian dialect and in Galician Language too, vid. Rafael Lapesa "Asturiano y provenzal en el Fuero de Avilés” Madrid 1948.

2) The Alexander Book (libru de Alexander) is written in Spanish, vid. Juan Manuel Cacho Blecua y María Jesús Lacarra Ducay, Historia de la literatura española, I. Entre oralidad y escritura: la Edad Media, José Carlos Mainer, 2012, pp. 350-352.

3) In regarding to the legal texts in leonese, all of the versions of the “Fuero Juzgo” were made by the Royal Chancellery of the Castillian Crown located in Toledo or in Cordoba since 1230. The liber iudiciorum, previous version of Fuero Juzgo, forbids any amendment or translate of its text. The first order to translation of the Liber Iudiciorum was ruled by Fernando III in 1241 until this year only known two papers in Catalonian language. Previous versions in romance language are not known before this year in Castillian Kingdom. In addition and in regarding to the Leonese Chancellery, this chancellery depends on the Santiago de Compostela Bishop and all the documents produced by it were written in Latin. (Alfonso X el Sabio en la Historia del Español, Inés Fernández Ordoñez, Alicante, 2009).

4) The statement “In the 12th, 13th and the first half of the 14th centuries, the languages used in the official documents of the kingdom was Asturian” is false. In the 12th century and the first half of 13th all of the documents are written in Latin only we know only copies of these documents in romance language which data is very difficult to set up. The second half of the 13th century there are the first documents in romance language, this language however it is not too much different to the Royal Documents. In the 14th century the official language of the asturian notaries is the Spanish.

5) The literature of the clergyman Anton Gonzalez Reguera, has nothing to do with the language which was spoken in the middle age in Asturias. About the character of this literature the Swedish philologist Åke W:son Munthe on 1868 notes the following: "it seems to subsist in this literature an arbitrary mixture of Castilian language elements. It cannot be considered as a literary language, because have not got any unified body, at least from a linguistic point of view...". Ake W:son Munthe, Anotaciones sobre el habla popular del occidente de Asturias, Upsala 1887, reedition, Publisher Service of the Oviedo University, 1987, p. 3. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bablista (talk • contribs) 23:49, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

6) Examples of asturian language by Hernan Nuñez de Toledo: 'Mayo tiene la lomada y junio le saca el alma', 'Marido en el lecho si quiera de folecho', 'Moza ventanera o puta o pedera', 'No asolejes tu mijo a la puerta de enemigo', 'Primero día de mayo corre el lobo y el verano', 'La madera de Ginero (enero in Spanish) no la pongas al humero', 'Salmón de Ginero al emperador primero, y después contando de grado en grado', 'Castigue pedera, y no castiga parandonera' 'El asno que está hecho de Albarda muerde el atafarra', 'El asturiano llama al atabarre, atafarra', 'En el mes de Henero (Ginero in Asturian) el sol entra en cada reguero', 'Dios que me fezo, ne es muerto ne es preso', 'La madera de tu casa en Ginero sea cortada', 'Si estuvieres al foguero, no hagas el rabo pedero','si fueres a concejo, no quiera el hablar primero', 'Si mucho trabaja higuero tanto mete en el pajero', 'Siema en culpa fiel nunca', in all cases folows "El Asturiano". If you understand something of Spanish, I guess that you will be begining to understand what thing is the Asturian Language. No comments.

7) Another interesting statement "However, it is of note that by the second half of the 16th century documents were clearly coming to be written in the Castilian language, backed deliberately by the Trastámara Dynasty making the civil and ecclesiastical service of the Principality of Castilian origin", ¿Trastamara Dinasty ruled in Asturias in 16th century, did it?,

8) More Fantastic statements "However, it is of note that by the second half of the 16th century documents were clearly coming to be written in the Castilian language" ¿Could someone quote me just a deed made by notaries in Spain written only in Asturian in the 14th or 15th century?, and in the 16th century?? --Bablista (talk) 00:33, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Asturian (Asturleonese in Asturias)

I believe the title "Asturian (Asturleonese in Asturias)" might be better than "Asturian language", as even though those dialects have been recognised as a language, they are practically similar to Leonese dialects, and all have developed from Asturleonese. Also, this is how the Spanish articles have been named. And let us not forget that the line between a language and a dialect is fine, and trying to make a distinction is rather unnecessary. What do you think? Any solid arguments to keep the existing one? Julio César Fernández Llamera (talk) 15:54, 13 November 2018 (UTC)Jcfll44[reply]

In fact your proposed title is the same now in the Spanish-language WP, where, surprisingly, it has met no opposition. Notice anyway that being part of Astur-Leonese is controversial for the Cantabrian dialects, and even more for the Extremaduran dialects. --Jotamar (talk) 18:02, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

New information to add to the article

I believe the article would benefit from some of this information:

The Asturian language is an example of one that has been ignored or “subjected to repeated challenges to its status as a language variety” due to its lack of official status. It has been recognized by the Spanish government, but no evident efforts have been made for preservation. There is no policy readily available for this language.

Although the government of Spain has allowed Asturian to be taught as an optional course in some schools, they have not perceived it as important enough to receive official status. Official status would be vital for revitalization and preservation efforts. As of now, there are 110,000 speakers worldwide, which is considered to be "at risk."

In terms of documentation of grammar in Asturian, there are manuals available online that contain extensive information on how to conjugate verbs, use adjectives and form sentences. It is a complex manual that can be used in schools to facilitate learning.

The Asturian language is mainly spoken in the city of Asturias, or Principáu d'Asturies, a region of northwest Spain.

A translator that can translate English, French, Portuguese and Italian, among a few other languages, into Asturian and vice versa is offered online. This software is funded and maintained by members of the University of Oviedo.

Asturians show cultural expression with instruments and artistry. Its culture can be compared to that of Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Cornwall as they showcase traditional supernatural being, such as dragons, fairies and leprechauns in popular mythology (Wacks, 2017). Richardmartinez1 (talk) 01:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

One observation: in Spain, policies related to local languages are managed by the government of each autonomous community; in the case of Asturias, by the Council of Government of the Principality of Asturias. --Jotamar (talk) 16:08, 12 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Asturian to be granted official status

Due to the vote of the Foro Asturias MP, Adrián Pumares, Asturian has now reached the 60% threshold (27/45) required for official status to be granted, but the terms of the legislation and a final date have yet to be agreed. ^[1] Culloty82 (talk) 14:23, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.lavozdeasturias.es/noticia/asturias/2021/10/26/hora-cero-oficialidad-foro-impone-lineas-rojas-izquierda-acoge-cautela/00031635264143646455442.htm

Number of Speakers

As of right now in the sidebar there are two very different estimates of how many people speak Asturian. González-Quevedo states that around 1/3 of Asturias' population speaks Asturian, that gives a figure of more than 300K, but the sidebar only says 10-20k, citing that source. The other numbers given are around 350K native speakers and like 640K passive speakers, I'll have to check what the encuesta sociolingüistica actually says, or someone else could check. Erinius (talk) 16:48, 17 February 2022 (UTC) The Encuesta states 62% of Asturians can speak Asturian. The number of Asturians claiming to speak Asturian has increased massively over the past few decades as well. Also from the Encuesta, 34% grew up speaking just Asturian at home, while 20% grew up with both Asturian and Spanish at home. I guess I'll just state between 33-62% of Asturians speak it? Erinius (talk) 18:35, 18 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I guess many of the Asturian speakers in those surveys could be better described as semi-speakers, and for that reason I think that more important than any percent figures would be having some kind of assessment of the real proficiency of speakers and the frequency of use of the language, including whether it is perhaps sometimes spoken rather like a hybrid of Spanish and Asturian. --Jotamar (talk) 11:28, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't think of anything to replace the figures in the infobox atm so I'll leave them there for now. More detail could go in the "Status and legislation" section or the "Historical, social and cultural aspects" one. Erinius (talk) 09:52, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It is a complex manual that can be used in schools to facilitate learning.

I think this sentence was written by a Spanish linguist who by "complex" probably meant something like comprehensive, thorough-going, consistent. As is, native speakers of English cannot help but laugh when they read this: complex is often used in descriptions of this nature as a euphemism for incomprehensible. 2A01:CB0C:CD:D800:98D2:65CA:1142:73EE (talk) 07:59, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I rephrased that. Erinius (talk) 09:29, 29 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mutual intelligibility with Spanish

As far as I can see, the article is lacking information about mutual intelligibility with (Castilian) Spanish. It says e.g. "In 1994 there were 100,000 native speakers and 450,000 second-language speakers able to speak (or understand) Asturian", but I read somewhere else that mutual intelligibility is high enough that just about any Spanish speaker from Spain can understand Asturian, with only minor issues of accent and a few dialect usages, just like would be the case with dialects of English, say, that are not termed separate languages. Anyway, if the article could give accurate and authoritative information on this point I think it would be helpful. 2A00:23C8:7B0C:9A01:2D10:E993:2F3B:CE6C (talk) 18:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There cannot be an easy way to assess that: Most current speakers of Asturian are immersed in a Spanish-speaking milieu, through the media and in many other ways, so what they speak can probably be better described as a hybrid of Asturian and Spanish. This should be easily understood by Spanish speakers, however the situation was in all likelihood very different in the past, for instance 70-80 years ago. --Jotamar (talk) 20:51, 29 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.lavozdeasturias.es/noticia/asturias/2021/10/26/hora-cero-oficialidad-foro-impone-lineas-rojas-izquierda-acoge-cautela/00031635264143646455442.htm

[1]