Talk:Assault of DeAndre Harris

Multiple issues template

This is the list of issues to address.Oceanflynn (talk) 21:05, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

• Excessive amount of intricate detail that may only interest a specific audience. (October 2017)

• Lead section may be too long for the length of the article. (October 2017)

I have shortened the lead and will remove the template in 24 hours.Oceanflynn (talk) 16:29, 17 October 2017 (UTC) With the lead at 200 words, I am going to remove the lead-length template today.Oceanflynn (talk) 15:39, 18 October 2017 (UTC)

• May require copy editing for grammar, style, cohesion, tone, or spelling. (October 2017)

DeAndre Harris mentioned by name in UN CERD report

This content was moved to the article Unite the Right rally by Signedzzz. It's great to have it in that article too courtesy of Signedzzz but it should be in this article. Only two names were mentioned in this report which highlights its significance. I have incorporated the content into the Aftermath section. Kind regards. Oceanflynn (talk) 23:24, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

UN response

In the United Nations Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (CERD) August 18 report, experts recalled the "horrific events in Charlottesville of 11-12 August, 2017 leading to the death of Ms. Heather Heyer, and the injuries inflicted on many other protesters, as well as the terrible beating of Mr. Deandre Harris by white supremacists." The UN Committee experts condemned "the failure at the highest political level of the United States of America to unequivocally reject and condemn" racist violence.

References

The Heaphy Report

Responding to PeterTheForth's edit and comment: "I'm removing a large amount of text cited to a pr imary source; we should rely on secondary sources for this. Revert and take to talk if you disagree"

In the section related to the independent report commissioned by the city of Charlottesville, I would imagine it to be appropriate to include a quote directly from the report regarding the events that is the subject of this page. The purpose of this edit is to provide context of the analysis of events as described in the report.

As stated in the report: "At about 12:07 p.m., the group stopped in front of the Market Street garage and a fight broke out. From our review of the ample open source video footage of this confrontation, it appears that a counter-protester attempted to yank a flag away from a Unite The Right demonstrator who resisted and fought back. During that struggle, a second counter-protester named Deandre Harris rushed in and used a club—possibly a Maglite flashlight—to strike the Alt-Right demonstrator’s head or shoulder. Nearby demonstrators rushed over to fight back and deployed pepper spray. The struggle moved into the parking garage. Harris appears to have tripped or been pushed to the ground, which left him defenseless against a mob of angry Alt-Right demonstrators that descended upon him with flagsticks, shields, and pieces of wood"[39]

Policy forbids the use of primary sources to make claims about living people - we must rely on secondary-source analysis of this material. If the secondary source chooses not to discuss a particular issue or part of the primary source, neither can we. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 01:47, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Haroly Ray Crews flag spearing charges

Has HRC actually had any charges files against him for the alleged spearing attempt on someone? Assault_on_DeAndre_Harris#Charges_against_Harris mentions:

According to an October 12 Washington Post article, "online footage shows Crews trying to spear another counterprotester [one of Harris' friends] with the pole of a Confederate flag, prompting Harris to fight back. Harris swung his flashlight at Crews, appearing to hit him.

I have removed the "one of Harris friends" part because this appears to be OR, neither source listed after the sentence mentions a relationship between the counterprotester and Harris. That may well be true they are friends but I think we should list a source affirming their friendship prior to restoring that.

I have also split this from a separate quote from the BBC article, which does not describe this the same way. There is no mention of Crews attacking "another counterprotester", it only mentions Crews attacking Harris with the flagpole, and this is mentioned after the description of the flashlight swing.

If Crews did attempt to spear another counterprotester as Ian Shapira has alleged, is anyone able to find any followup sources regarding any convictions being pressed against Crews? ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:58, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

arrests v charges

Reading the article presently:

18-year-old Daniel P. Borden from Mason, Ohio, was charged.

33-year-old Alex Michael Ramos of Marietta, Georgia, was arrested on charges of malicious wounding.

22-year-old Jacob Scott Goodwin from Ward, Arkansas, was arrested on October 11, 2017.

police in Charlottesville, Virginia obtained an arrest warrant for Tyler Watkins Davis of Middleburg, Florida .. Davis was arrested by deputies from the Clay County Sheriff's Department.

The phrasing indicates that Borden and Ramos were charged, but only indicates that Goodwin and Davis were arrested. Does anyone know if any sources have mentioned whether or not criminal charges were also filed against Goodwin + Davis? ScratchMarshall (talk) 21:11, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

These 4 - Fourth man charged in Harris beating extradited to Charlottesville, 10 Feb 2018 - Tyler Watkins Davis, Daniel Borden, Alex Ramos and Jacob Goodwin - have been charged and are due for trial later this year. In the meantime it seems Harris himself has gotten into a bit more trouble - DeAndre Harris Faces New Restrictions After Bond Hearing, 25 Jan 2018 - He had been charged by law enforcement in Southampton on January 10 for speeding, transporting a loaded rifle, and possession of a concealed weapon. in addition to facing one misdemeanor count of assault from that same day, trial set - Harris will now be under OAR (Offender Aid & Restoration) supervision until his trial on March 16..Icewhiz (talk) 07:20, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 28 February 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus for any particular title here; reverting to Beating of DeAndre Harris as the reversion of an undiscussed move, per WP:RMTR and WP:RMCM. Please note that this could have been requested directly at WP:RMTR. If another move proposal is needed, please take the contents of the current discussion into consideration. Dekimasuよ! 20:13, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

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Assault on DeAndre Harris → beating of DeAndre Harris – as can be seen here on December 29 Marek unilaterally chose to change "beating of" to "assault on" while ignoring the consensus which was already established on the talk page. The prior title was supported by coffman, icewhiz, WWGB and Andrewa. I believe these 4 made the right choice and I would also like to see this restored to "beating of". This is a more neutral title because "assault on" is a violation of WP:BLPCRIME against the 4 accused men, Borden/Ramos/Goodwin/Davis all of whom are named here. It would be like if I made an article called assault on Harold Ray Crews based on DeAndre's having been charged with that crime. The more neutral title in that case would be beating of Harold Ray Crews because like here, whether or not the beating is an assault has not been verified by a court of law and we must protect the accused according to BLP policy. ScratchMarshall (talk) 04:53, 28 February 2018 (UTC)--Relisting. —usernamekiran(talk) 19:27, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Whether or not any particular person was responsible, DeAndre Harris was, indeed, assaulted by someone. We have an article on the O.J. Simpson murder case despite the fact that O.J. Simpson was acquitted of murder. The article is just fine right here. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 05:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

That is called a "murder case" because it is a murder CHARGE. The equivalents here would be Borden assault case / Ramos assault case / Goodwin assault case / Davis assault case / Harris assault case because it would describe the case of exploring assault charges against these men. ScratchMarshall (talk) 22:04, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

• Should be moved to Unite the Right parking garage fight - per on-going coverage of the event in the subsequent months - Charlottesville Judge Sets Trial Dates for DeAndre Harris and Corey Long, 10 Jan 2018, DeAndre Harris Faces New Restrictions After Bond Hearing, 25 Jan 2018 - it is becoming clearer this was a multi-sided affair and not a one-sided assault, and our title is in contradictions of NPOV. Icewhiz (talk) 06:41, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

  That's certainly preferable to the present format. Do we need "parking" though" Were there any other garage fights? ScratchMarshall (talk) 22:04, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose "Beating of..." is infantile and inaccurate. A black man was set upon by a mob of white nationalists, an act characterized as assault by the cited sources. TheValeyard (talk) 04:14, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Page title moved to assault

One person has, indeed, been convicted of a crime in this case; the above objection is now mooted, so I have moved the page to the appropriate title. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 03:41, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Title is "Assault", but subtitle is "Beating"

I agree with a previous Editor that use of the word "Beating" was suboptimal. There was substantive discussion which resulted in retitling the Article to "Assault", particularly after the conviction for Assault, a legal term. Seems to me that the subsection's title should also be changed to Assault, for all the previously mentioned reasons, as well as internal consistency of the Article. The word "beating" inside the subsection should also be changed to "assault" for all the same reasons.2605:6000:6947:AB00:6596:2527:8AC0:2D86 (talk) 06:20, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

Challenge Merritt Quote

The subsection titled "Independent review of city of Charlottesville's response" of the Article quotes Harris's Attorney S. Lee Merrit as saying:

"Merritt said, "In an atmosphere where it is now clear law enforcement was instructed to stand down and allow violent supremacists to attack civilians, it seems only appropriate the city of Charlottesville reduce the demonstratively unjust charges against Mr. Harris, and we encourage the city to go even further with a total dismissal."[47]"

I have several problems with this.

1) Merritt is Harris's attorney and cannot be considered part of an "Independent Review". Merritt is the Defendant's ADVOCATE and not is not "independent" of that. 2) The fact that he is Harris's attorney means that his version and perceptions of the event cannot be taken as fact. He is Harris's paid professional advocate, and by definition too biased to be included in the Article which purports his biased advocacy as fact. 3) The idea that the two sides of the conflict are described as "protestors" and "civilians" is ridiculous. The other side of the dichotomy that includes "civilians" is not "protestors", it is "military". Protesters are not military. Use of the word "civilians" is also ridiculous because it carries the connotations that the Antifascist and unpermitted "Counter-protestors" were just native Charlottesville citizens who just happened to be in the area peacefully minding their own business doing routine things like shopping, etc... They were there to deliberately engage with the White Nationalists, and it was their only reason for being there. They weren't "civilians", they were violent "Counter-protestors". Go watch some Youtube videos so see the truth of this. 4) The White Nationalists present were not "protesting", they were demonstrating. They were permitted by the City to be there (meaning they had a City Permit), and the Anti-fascist protestors were not, because they did not (have a Permit). 5) In contradiction to the Article, when the Police forced the two groups together, they allowed the violent "Anti-fascists" to attack (sometimes violent) White Nationalists, since the White Nationalists were outnumbered 10 to 1, at least. 6) Most of the violence was fomented by the "Anti-Fascists". There dozens, if not hundreds of Youtube videos that support this. The White Nationalists had shields, because the Anti-fascist protests were throwing rocks, bricks, bottles of urine, spraying pepper spray, etc... The Anti-fascist protests did not have shields, because they did not need them. When considering where most of the violence came from, think about who had the shields and who did not. 7) The spelling of Merritt's name is inconsistent within the Article. 8) Merritt was Harris's Defense Attorney for the crime that he was charged with, and as such as no role in the crime (Assault) where Harris was the victim. IMO the mention of his name, or anything he had to say serves no purpose in this Article.

I mention all of this, not to advocate that these opinions of the Charlottesville Demonstration be implemented in the Article, but instead to illustrate the level of bias and "cherry-picking" that has resulted in the Article as it now stands. Also, all of these issues are secondary to an Article titled (The) "Assault on DeAndre Harris", which should be the Article's main focus. It should be short and too the point, with a minimum of information on what happened both before and after, particularly since the Article does such a bad of job of providing an unbiased report on those details, and not be used to further a larger and biased narrative about the "larger" events that took place that day. It's about an assault. The majority of the Article should focus on the Assault and nothing else.2605:6000:6947:AB00:6596:2527:8AC0:2D86 (talk) 06:54, 12 October 2018 (UTC)