Talk:Assassination of Sokratis Giolias

Assassination

I am unfamiliar with the policy regarding incidents like these. Would it be better to complete the bio over time, or to change the article to the story of the assassination itself? Cwill151 (talk) 18:53, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I would support moving the article to Assassination of Sokratis Giolias, as that is what he is most notable for. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

That was my thinking, plus this would qualify under WP:ONEEVENT. So, should we move it? I think consensus might come down to you, me and User:Rebecca. Cwill151 (talk) 19:40, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

MickMackMee clearly supports moving it to Assassination of Sokratis Giolias. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:42, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Moved as HJ Mitchell also agrees. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Second, All in favor?...All opposed?...Motion carried. Cwill151 (talk) 19:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Was it actually an assassination? it could have been a pissed off husband or something. 15 shots is rather personnel. A hit is usually one or two shots, or so i heard.--71.162.248.240 (talk) 17:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Age

In most of the sources I've read it lists his age as 35. Am I mistaken? Cwill151 (talk) 20:02, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes I was. I was looking at sources in Hungarian... silly me. Cwill151 (talk) 20:04, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Bombing

I re-read several of the sources, and they all agree that the attack on Alter TV was actually a bombing, though still with no casualties. Is the article relevant to more categories with that addition? Cwill151 (talk) 20:53, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't have thought so - that's only a one line addition, the WikiProjects are more for the content of the article as a whole. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Most critical part of the debate is failed to be mentioned.

All major Greek media covering the story report the (obviously true) clash between blogs such as troktiko (of which he was the founder) and athens indymedia. --Leladax (talk) 02:28, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

More details on the matter: The claim is (which is in my opinion obviously true) that athens indymedia is a far left area while blogs such as this (troktiko) are considered by it (and by themselves) less leaning towards the far left. Sources on the 'debate clash' can be easily found on Greek major channels and perhaps papers. Also, last night's news had extensive coverage (notably on MEGA channel but also ALTER if I recall correctly) that athens indymedia server is located in Athens Polytechnio University which has political asylum from prosecution due to historical reasons (as other educational institutions). This was opposed by some commentators and centrist and centrist-right politicians live on the news. --Leladax (talk) 02:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

It can be safely said that Media were hostile towards athens indymedia. --Leladax (talk) 02:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

(I adjusted your indentation above). Yes, this makes no sense to me, from my perspective as a American. It seems to imply that a left revolutionary group would have something to hide/fear from an investigative journalist investigating, presumably corruption and/or other defalcations of the existing order, which is what left revolutionaries are supposed to be trying to overthrow. Please provide some explication of this. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 02:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The claim of anonymous posters on indymedia is that he was 'part of the system' (when they are hostile towards him). The claim of many Popular Media in Greece (notably MEGA channel and ALTER) is that indymedia harbors very hostile comments that can be potentially be instigators. --Leladax (talk) 02:46, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I see that now. Apparently he was considered to be an agent of MSM for his blog and an enemy of the radicalization current in Greece. In fact a comment in the article linked from The Independent, mentioning English translations of some of the titles on his blog indicates an exceedingly reactionary perspective. Maybe someone who speaks Greek can make this clearer. The other MSM seem to completely miss and/or purposefully obfuscate this so that the only implication that can be drawn by an outsider is that these left revolutionary terrorist groups are implicated in some corruption he was about to uncover which makes no sense. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 03:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

as a person interested in indymedia's i have a note here, they are often spammed by anonymous posters , plenty of wich apparently perform the task for or through a government agency. next : revolutionairy and sect is an oxymoron, definitily also in greece, thirdly no anarchists ever went after a journalist , altho they might get behind a magnate. next the socalled smoking gun, occured a couple times before, afaik the usual terror suspect is taken in before even lighting as much as a candle, these guys roam free and kill, to get to their victims and implicate others, they use their own familiar tools, ballistic reports and saying there's been a cartheft (that will make him ome out), as an anarchist i would be interested to see a more nuanced opinion on oxymoronic deathsquad names etc. however suit it yourself, history is written by victors and not in truth. this will probs soon get deleted, so i add the deaths in the bank appear also planned from, 'some' side.80.57.43.99 (talk) 08:49, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

"Provocateurs did it" doesn't apply here. MEGA channel and others talked about "hostile" messages that the administrators of the site actively allowed to exist. In fact it's pretty obvious and nothing abnormal. Simply Athens Indymedia being comprised primarily by the far left it is normal for it to not be very loving of "established" journalists. i.e. It's nothing they would deny and there isn't much that the popular Media call as source that seems fake. The main disagreement between the two is clearly ideological. i.e. Popular Media think that it's dangerous to say "negatives" about victims and Athens Indymedia culture calls that 'establishment bs'. It's not really unclear there and no "provocateurs" are needed in either side to have it. --Leladax (talk) 09:23, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Well it appears the objective facts will have to await a distant historical perspective, which is ultimately, I believe, because there can only be one victor in the common historical perspective of mankind, in fact objective. Since the English wiki content appears to be currently far larger than the Greek, no resolution seems forthcoming here at this time, some degree of English-Greek bilingualism apparently being insufficient in and of itself without the proper analytical skills and perspective. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 11:58, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

• Gentlemen, you both make some very interesting points here. When we were creating this article yesterday, there was only the barest minimum of objective fact that had been published in reliable press. The media coverage of the event was truly global, I found hits for the story in Vietnamese and even one in Argentina, but they all published roughly the same story: Sokratis Giolias... partisan politics... Troktiko...assassinated. There were of course thousands of blogs that covered the story, some of which covered it in substantial depth. However, because of WP policy, we can't cite blogs as sources of objective fact, and several of the better-written blogs on the subject translated poorly from Greek to English. Now, as you can see what we have currently written is a fair coverage of the facts of the case itself, namely what has been published about the assassination; but If either of you are literate in both Greek and English, or have a more in depth knowledge of the substantial background of the case (which we are noticeably missing), please add it here if you can find a non-blog source. If all that exists are blogs, then please post a list of them here and we can take a look to see if any of them could be considered credible. When we wrote this yesterday, we were painfully aware that we had no information about Giolias the man; that's why we switched the article to be about the assassination. If either of you can produce relevant information about his life or substantial information about the political and social background of the case then we can add it and possibly transform this article into a reputable biography. Cwill151 (talk) 18:42, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I have only proceeded from the sources I listed and my understanding of what constitutes the true facts about the referent of a term like "far left revolutionary terrorist" or "investigation of corruption" and in particular the English translation of the titles of some entries from the deceased's blog as reported by a comment to the The Independent article that is or was listed in the sources. I can make out a very little Greek from classic studies but I'm essentially a English monoglot. The matter or fact would seem to hinge on the motivation of the assassins, whether or not the deceased provoked them, thier character as a group, and the possibility that the entire affair could be some kind of conspiratorial provocation as one of the Greek(Bulgarian?) commentators above seems to think. It's unthinkable that there aren't Greek/American or other bilinguals (such (presumably) as 'motherofone' in the The Independent article's comments list) capable of ascertaining and reporting these facts so should be resolvable. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 19:16, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Transliteration quibble - should he be "Socrates"?

According to the article, the victim's name in Greek is Σωκράτης. This is a name with a familiar established English form, "Socrates". Shouldn't the article call him "Socrates" rather than "Sokratis"? - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 14:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Some Greeks write their name - when they write it in English - in funny ways to distinguish it from (a particular) ancient philosopher(s) but also to denote they like to hear greek pronunciation. e.g. Sokratis could be closer to greek pronounciation (it'd still be wrong) than Socrates which has an english pronunciation --194.219.163.170 (talk) 15:16, 21 July 2010 (UTC).

Modern Greek names are usually translated phonetically, not with their latinized forms, and that quasi-rule is also the norm in Wikipedia. THat is why we have Eleftherios Venizelos instead of Eleutherios Venizelos, etc Constantine ✍ 17:14, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I understand. I can see some problems generally here. It's a one way process; someone not recognizing the root seeing the name "Eleftherios" might imagine that the original contained -φθ-, and I know just enough Greek to make renditions like Megali Idea look "wrong". This isn't the place to rehash all this, but I will probably go add all of the people whose name is "Sokratis" to the Socrates (disambiguation) page. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 22:08, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I added some info to that disambig page and also created a redirect page at Sokratis. Esn (talk) 05:34, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Relevance?

Other than being assassinated, is this guy notable in any way? Has anyone even heard of him before now? I always find Wikipedia's choice in headlines interesting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.23.74.83 (talk) 22:34, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Not in Hollywood, no. --195.74.255.109 (talk) 01:23, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Giolias was not well known in terms of the U.S. or U.K. but he was quite famous in Greece. His section of the blog Troktiko was viewed 5 million times a day on average up until his assassination. So you are correct in thinking that only his murder is notable as far as WP is concerned, but it would be incorrect to say he wasn't notable in terms of his own sphere of influence. Cwill151 (talk) 15:56, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

(Adjusted list item to indentation markup). Presume this thread is about notability. That is far and away established and you will note that the article is about an event, one which has made the top level of news everywhere in the world, not an individual. Yesterday I listened to a five minute report on it on Deutsche Welle. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Troktiko shuts down today

Troktiko no longer exists actively. This is major news for this person's wikipedia article (they later admitted he was the founder and leader). PS. For all the trash troktiko may had had, "congratulations" far left extemists, fascism of the gun prevails. Now the society of the psychopath with the gun is one step closer. --195.74.250.140 (talk) 22:11, 24 July 2010 (UTC)

It's Official

In response to the assassination of Sokratis Giolias, Troktiko has gone offline indefinitely[1]. A sad day for the free world...

Cwill151 (talk) 05:48, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Giolias' Lawyer Statements about the murder

On the aftermath of the assasination Sokratis Giolias' lawyer Giannis Marakakis made some curious statements that has since been blacked out by the media, or edited in such a way that the meaning would be lost,

He said that: "Someone wanted mr Giolias dead tonight and not tomorrow" and that if someone wants to find out who killed my client all he has to do is to search his computer files for clues about his next publications.

On the exact day before he was murdered Giolias' blog troktiko published a post which read: "Tomorrow: Big story about major league corruption between politicians and businessmen"

Also it has been revealed that Giolias' had on the way the publication of a new Newspaper also called Troktiko (which by the way means rodent) in fact the week after his murder he had plans to file for the creation of a company whose charter was published by Mega Channel and can be seen here: http://kozanitika.gr/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/troktiko.jpg

Another strange fact is that the balistic report for the bullets that killed him was completed in about 4 hours, i am no criminolgist and dont know if it is possible to examine 20 bullets in 4 hours and to match them with a gun (perhaps an expert could enlight me) however what i know that such reports usually take far longer to come out in Greece, at least a few days or as in the case of Alexis Grigoropoulos aboutt a month.

All this transmit a certain odour in my opinion —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.128.28.220 (talk) 07:33, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

For the ballistics report to have been prepared in 4 hours does not, in and of itself, raise any suspicion in my mind. Even a visual match of rifling with no automation should be able to do that and from what I understand the suspected group was already front and center as a result of prior action(s). This line of speculation needs to start with evidence tampering where ballistics evidence from the Sekte Epanaston are planted. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 18:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

Bolding

I have emboldened the quote from the Troktiko site announcing their shut-down. I simply feel that the situation merits something of a requiem... flags at half mast, etc. This edit is made in my name only, not in consensus and I accept that. If any other editor wishes to revert, that's totally fine. I am planning to revert/undo it tomorrow at this time anyway. I merely wanted to highlight the fact that in this case, and indeed in all of Greece, terrorism has won. This probably shouldn't affect me personally in such a way, but I can't seem to get over it... terrorists won and there is nothing the world can do about it. Goddamn. Cwill151 (talk) 21:59, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

If its gone in 24 hours that's fine by me. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 22:03, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with it, it's in a reaction section, but there are other perspectives and someone might object to your pushing a POV. One would be that a blow, though I'm not familiar enough to say for sure, had been struck for the health of the public and free discourse and a warning issued to petty poisoners and defilers of public discourse everywhere who degrade the people for their personal gain, which as noted above there is some evidence might be the case. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 22:23, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

[Responding to post on my talk page by User:Cwill151] I reverted the bolding the first time to conform with the MOS and to not give undue weight to that particular quote. The second revert done by an IP was not me. Having now read the talk page, I understand and respect your reasoning, although I do not agree for the following two reasons. Firstly; To me it is a question of principle, If we bold this quote someone might wan't to bold a positive quote about a more controversial person, like George Bush when he dies. And secondly, although the murder of a journalist, in a western democracy in modern time, is tragic and rare, it is not unprecedented. Despite having any sources to support this, I simply don't think the murder of Giolias equals the death of our freedom of expression. I will, however, not revert your changes. Cheers —P. S. Burton (talk) 10:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

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