Talk:Asp (snake)

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WikiProject Ancient Egypt to-do list:

Needed articles.

We should have an article on every pyramid and every nome in Ancient Egypt. I'm sure the rest of us can think of other articles we should have.

Cleanup.

To start with, most of the general history articles badly need attention. And I'm told that at least some of the dynasty articles need work. Any other candidates?

Standardize the Chronology.

A boring task, but the benefit of doing it is that you can set the dates !(e.g., why say Khufu lived 2589-2566? As long as you keep the length of his reign correct, or cite a respected source, you can date it 2590-2567 or 2585-2563)

Stub sorting

Anyone? I consider this probably the most unimportant of tasks on Wikipedia, but if you believe it needs to be done . . .

Data sorting.

This is a project I'd like to take on some day, & could be applied to more of Wikipedia than just Ancient Egypt. Take one of the standard authorities of history or culture -- Herotodus, the Elder Pliny, the writings of Breasted or Kenneth Kitchen, & see if you can't smoothly merge quotations or information into relevant articles. Probably a good exercise for someone who owns one of those impressive texts, yet can't get access to a research library.

On 30 July 2021, it was proposed that this article be moved from Asp (reptile) to Asp (snake). The result of the discussion was moved.

What is the basic problem?

The word 'asp' is indeed archaic and has been used for various things by various peoples in various eras uncomprehendingly. You have found a source that says "aspis is greek for viper". Wrong! In chronological order: - Aspís was originally Greek for SHIELD. Then it became the Greek for the Egyptian snake that looked like a shield (cobra, obviously). Then it became the Latin word for the same animal (the Romans met it in north Africa). Then Plutarch wrote in Greek of the Aspís being the cause of Cleopatra's death. Her actual death and her literary death are two separate things that should not be confused (Plutarch basically invented the metaphor of "taking a viper to your bosom"). Then, taken from the Latin, it became an English word for an animal no-one had ever seen, but sounded thrilling (see Caxton's definition in the OED - "a beest unable to be caught except by charming"). Then it started to get used in English for European creatures that bore no resemblence to the Egyptian cobra (if Shakespeare used the word asp, it was probably from an English translation of Plutarch). and so on. You have a mess to sort out over many pages. FangoFuficius (talk) 09:12, 19 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Move

Shouldn't this page be Asp (snake) rather than Asp (reptile), since the archaic term is used solely in reference to snakes? --64.85.223.85 (talk) 04:34, 16 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge

And shouldn't this merge with the Vipera aspis page? This article isn't making much of a case for considering the asp separately from the, erm, asp... 128.135.181.127 (talk) 16:34, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think so. Global perspective. Outside the geographic range of the European asp, the most common use of the word is probably to refer to the snake used by Cleopatra in her suicide, which apparently was not Vipera aspis. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 18:50, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 July 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Clear consensus to move the article as proposed. No consensus for making it the primary topic. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 11:02, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Asp (reptile) → Asp (snake) – Clearer and more specific. Asp only refers to specifically snakes, no other reptiles. It's currently confusing that Asp (snake) redirects to a disambiguation page instead of this one. This is an article that discusses the meaning of asp in relation to snakes and can cover the snake entries on that disambiguation page. MClay1 (talk) 14:43, 30 July 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Jack Frost (talk) 03:45, 8 August 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 18:24, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nomination. When referenced at all, it would be solely or primarily in relation to the snake putatively used in the suicide of Cleopatra. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 09:43, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Other. Moving it to Asp (snake) would certainly be an improvement over leaving it here at Asp (reptile). But I think it would be best to have the article at Asp and the disambiguation page at Asp (disambiguation), with a hatnote on the article linking both to the disambig and to the acronym page ASP. According to WP:QUALIFIER, If the article is about the primary topic to which the ambiguous name refers, then that name can be its title without modification, provided it follows all other applicable policies. Also worth considering are the guidelines at WP:D. I haven't looked at actual page-view statistics, but I would expect that this article and Vipera aspis would get a lot more traffic than the fish or the small town in Spain. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 18:39, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support Asp (historic snake). All the snakes on the list are by definition reptiles. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:55, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom as usefully more precise. Oppose making the snake PTOPIC - PTOPICs invariably collect bad links, and in this case the risk is serious confusion for readers interested in protein structure or the genetic code. Narky Blert (talk) 12:52, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nominator. No danger of confusion or misinformation as all asps are snakes. JIP | Talk 15:38, 8 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Note that four other entries on the Asp disambiguation page are also snakes (and therefore also reptiles), so renaming this article to Asp (snake) would be incomplete disambiguation, as is the current title! In particular, the Vipera aspis is often known as the asp. This article is about the historic use of the term; it is not clear which particular snake it referred to in antiquity. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:05, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Different target: the proposal would be incomplete disambiguation. "Asp" basically seems to simply mean "venomous snake", so the title would also be redundant. There are also various snakes that are called "asp". Use something different such as "Asp in historic literature". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:46, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- I would support Asp in historic literature too. -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:22, 18 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

--Relisted to gather more discussion on the various destination options.--Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 18:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

--Advertised at WikiProject Amphibians and Reptiles.--Shibbolethink ^(♔ ^♕) 18:25, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nominator. Replying to above comment, it doesn't matter if asps are snakes. That's how these titles work. For example, Roundup is a herbicide, but it sits at Roundup (herbicide) because "round-up' may refer to other topics as well. LK (talk) 08:26, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- To me, the proposed title seems a bit like Herbicide (weedkiller) or Glyphosate-based herbicide (Roundup). We wouldn't do that. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:46, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support, it's a snake. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:51, 16 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Move the dab page over and make this primary. Srnec (talk) 02:18, 17 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Support making this page primary and moving the dab page to Asp (disambiguation). Primary topic for "asp". Natg 19 (talk) 00:29, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

But what are they?

When someone comes to a page called "Asp (snake)", it's very likely that they're trying to find out which snakes are called asps. Are there several species within the genus Vipera, with the common name "asp"? Are there several species in different genera within the viperidae? Is it a common name for the entire viperidae? Is it still used for some cobras? I don't know, because the article doesn't tell, and I haven't found it in a reliable source to add. --Dan Wylie-Sears 2 (talk) 18:19, 31 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]