Talk:Artist/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Proposed rewrite

Artist is a subjective term which describes a person creative in, innovative in, or adept at, their endeavors.

Most often, the term describes those who create in a cultural context, such as engaging in drawing, sculpting, acting, dancing, writing, filmmaking and music — people who use imagination, and talent or skill, to create works of aesthetic value. ~~, especially in the fine arts.~~ Art historians and art critics define artists as those who produce art within a recognised provenance.

Many people use the term to denote highly skilled people in non-~~fine~~"arts" activities, as well — crafts, medicine, alchemy, mechanics, mathematics, defense (martial arts) and architecture, for example. The designation often applies to people skilled at nefarious or questionable activities, too — like "scam artist" or "bullshit artist."

Billions of books, articles, essays and theses are written, acedemic courses created, and café discussions held in an effort to define "art" and "artist", and yet, there is no consensus amongst humans about what constitues "art" or who is, or is not, an "artist".

Most often, the discussions focus on the differences between "artist" and "technician" or "artisan," "fine art" and "applied art," or what constitues art and what does not.

Western culture widely accepts that anyone can call themselves an "artist", however posterity ultimately decides whether the label fits.

The Oxford English dictionary, cites ~~the~~ broader meanings of the term "artist,"

A learned person or Master of Arts.
One who persues a practical science, traditionally medicine, astrology, alchemy, chemistry.
A follower of a pursuit in which skill comes by study or practice - the opposite of a theorist.
a follower of a manual art, such as a mechanic.
one who makes their craft a fine art.
one who cultivates one of the fine arts - traditionally the arts presided over by the muses.

(referenced from: C. T. Onions (1991). The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary. Clarendon Press Oxford. ISBN 0-19-861126-9.)

In Greek the word "techně" means "art." In Latin, derived from the Greek word, "art" is "tecnicus", from which the English words technique, technology, technical are derived. So, though the words have evolved over millenia, their root is the same.

Starving Artists...

I think there is a website devoted to "starving artists"... Starving Artists. And I just found another site that relates... The Starving Artist's Gateway to the WWWeb.

It is true that there are "starving artists"... mostly because they do not know how to make a living from their work. Some artists also just do not want to market their work for personal reasons as well.

Many artists have to support themselves doing non-art jobs, like waiting tables in order to support themselves. This does not mean that their art is "bad"... it just means that they have most likely not been discovered yet.

I work on a site called Art.Net and work with artists all over the world, helping them to get exposure for themselves and their art via the Internet and WWWeb. And I have to say, there are alot of good artists out there just making ends meet (or not!).

Also, in history, there has been the case of artists dying poor and only after their deaths, being discovered and considered as great artists. And some famous artists of their day have died as paulpers... look at Mozart!

Would be happy to help write this section of the article. Just let me know where you would like it added. It would also be nice to have a section for external links so that artists could point to their sites from this page... and sites could be referenced that relate to artists.

- lile 20:59, 17 May 2006 (UTC)--

Webmaster/Artist of Art.Net

It is also true that there are or have been starving mathematicians, politicians, dieticians and even in the case of howard hughes millionaires. but there is no overwhelming desire to add a section to those pages. Why on earth is the ability to provide oneself with food a valid adjunct to the profession of 'artist' - If you think about it for a little while you will realise that it is part of the mythology created by collectors, to work up the price of the job lot of paintings they bought cheap from so&so's widow. It actually has almost no bearing on the encyclopeadic content of the artist article. before we start adding 'artists with cats' or artists with 'green front doors' lets sort out the rather scattered info that we do have. DavidP

Dumb word

The only thing that seems to connect 'artists' is the desire to be seen as 'artists' - it is more than a little sad. Art is a sad word too and better avoided.Pliny 21:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation of references

This article needs to focus effort on the citation of appropriate references for what has been written.

Should what has been written be removed if no references are forthcoming?

All references also need to be included in a references section - which I'm adding, along with an external links section. Cosmopolitancats 00:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I added more dictionary definitions. I think this is the way to go - provide verifiable views as to what an artist is rather than make it up for ourselves. Content may be fine - lack of citation when it resources exist isn't. (forgot sinature again!) Cosmopolitancats 01:19, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Artist: History of the term

I think 'seven muses' should read 'nine muses' Rene deBeauville 03:17, 19 July 2007 (UTC)Rene

Too much see also.

~~In my opinion, this article has way too much see also. Either make a template, or a category. Better yet page that has a list of all theese article. TheBlazikenMaster 11:54, 23 August 2007 (UTC)~~

Nevermind that, I misread the "see also section".

RE: Split

I think it is a possibility that this article could be split into a few different articles. What do you guys think? Eric Wester 16:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

History of the term artist could probably make an article by itself? Eric Wester 16:10, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

We need an article called artist; there isn't enough here to split frankly. Creation of sub- or specialized articles doesn't need debate, so I will boldly remove the tag - now 2 1/2 months old. Johnbod 14:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Pejorative

Notation of use of the word 'artist' in a derogatory vein is beyond trivial; nearly any and every noun describing a profession, career, or interest can take on a negative spin (he's just a 'mechanic'; they are 'politicians'; she is a 'feminist'), and such usage is anomalous. To note this does nothing to add to our understanding of the word or its deeper meanings. That is why I deleted the satement. However, it has been reinstated, and I have no interest in an editing skirmish.

JNW 18:08, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. That statement seems out of place at the end of an article. If it must be included, it could belong under a section addressing the public's conceptions of artist and artist stereotypes, which would also include other conceptions of artists.

removed Johnbod 14:30, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

External links

Site about Artists: famous and not-so-famous.

The above link was added to the page. I've removed it for now. I don't feel it's appropriate, as it's basically a wiki for artists to post info about themselves. This is ripe for abuse and self-promotion. I'd like to get some consensus on this. freshacconcispeaktome 16:23, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Agree with your rationale. It does not add something indispensable, and is open for self-promotion. Not a keeper. JNW (talk) 16:26, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

There is good concise information on the site. Very basic stuff but all in one place and ideal for the college student. See [[1]] or [[2]]. It's also - as far as I can see - properly and regularly maintained and it's directly pertinent to this article which, so far, has no external linking. I assume anyone commenting here has taken the time to look at the site? Setwisohi (talk) 16:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I have looked at it. As scholarship, it's exceedingly thin, and is, as already noted, vulnerable to self-promotion. The artists' biographies are too short to be of practical scholarly use for students; they don't offer even a minimal amount of information, and the alphabetized page [3] underscores the drawbacks of its wiki-ness: contemporary non-notables are mixed in with old masters. JNW (talk) 17:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

I dont think it's supposed to be for scholarship. It's just an interesting site where people who know very little about Art can spend a bit of time. I'm certainly no art scholar but I found it useful. That's the nub of it surely? Setwisohi (talk) 17:42, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

note: Just to add, looking at some other external links - for galleries and the like - they almost all allow for advertising to be added. (Whether by companies or individuals). Isn't that self-promotion? And also ripe for abuse? I dont much fancy deleting all links which have advertising on... Or is there a difference which I'm not getting? Setwisohi (talk) 17:58, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

My interpretation is that links are expected to meet a certain standard of scholarship, and either elaborate on the content or add something of substance to the article. There are qualitative decisions re:links, as well as to the content of the article itself. As for the second point, Wikipedia guidelines do note that the presence of inappropriate links (and there are many) do not justify the addition of further questionable links. JNW (talk) 18:01, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I see what you are driving at and I'm not sure I necessarily disagree with you. Although I think we have to bear in mind that most people are not scholars nor are they looking for scholarly links. On the second point I also agree with you - 'crap' exists is not a reason for more of it to exist. (Of course I disagree that this link is such 'crap'). But now, by accident, we have 'discovered' a fault here in a different area of Wiki policy: namely, if links should not be to sites which allow for self-promotion, then links which allow for advertising of any kind should also be banned. Of course that's just not practicable. Nor is it desirable. So, by default, a site which allows for self-promotion should not be barred - it's just a form of advertising is it not? Setwisohi (talk) 18:09, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, all advertising or self-promotional links are strongly discouraged by Wikipedia policy, and one can spend the better part of a lifetime chasing spam and battling its proponents. And there is a history of spam linking to articles on the arts. I don't think the link you propose is crap, and your intentions are constructive, but it has weaknesses as discussed above. Here's another rationale specific to this article: For a link to be included, it would have to be of very high quality, or expansive in its application. The article encompasses a wide spectrum of art forms, and it is logical to anticipate that it could easily be overrun by external links to dozens of branches of the arts (painting, film, dance, etc), as well as thousands of individual artists, each one valid. In this case, a lack of links seems to work nicely. JNW (talk) 18:20, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I can see your rationale on this last point and I think I agree with you. So long as this article maintains no external links or only very very top quality ones, I think that you are right and this particular article is improved. Setwisohi (talk) 18:38, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Definitely not. See WP:ELNO#2. Ty 23:30, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Possibly so. The section WP:ELNO#2 states 'normally to be avoided'. If this or any other open-source Wiki is properly maintained there is no reason to exclude it. Likewise, there is no reference to sites being barred on grounds of 'self-promotion'; not sure where or why this has been considered an issue here. All advertising is promotion and, within limits, it is acceptable. JaneVannin (talk) 09:43, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

In this case, it isn't a rigid application of the rules, but an assessment of how valuable this link is to an article on the vast subject of "Artist". Ty 10:42, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Under WP:ELNO#13: Similarly, a website on a specific subject should usually not be linked from an article about a general subject. The site in question does have a bit of advertising--it is trying to sell products, which is addressed by WP:ELNO#5. The definition of 'objectionable amounts of advertising' is left for us to decide. As to self-promotion, while that may not be obviously applicable here, it is a possibility inherent in the construction of the particular site under discussion; some of the contemporary artists' pages link to their websites, so it can be construed as a vehicle for sales as much as an informative link. The fact that they share equal space with biographies of old masters ought to raise a question. This is covered under WP:EL#ADV. JNW (talk) 14:29, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

See this follow up discussion which includes artists.wikidot.com:

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Spam#France-related wikis on wikidot.com

--A. B. ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:25, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Pejorative Term

The word “artists” is often used as a pejorative term especially by more conservative people or people who do not value either art or the artists who make art. Usually the arguments against artists are that they are lazy or egotistical. The main opposition to them seems to be from individuals who do not share the same values as artistic people.

Not sure who made the above comment. Saying that conservative people, be they conservative politically or otherwise, are not interested in art or artists who make art is total bunk. Some of the largest collections of art were founded by people associated as being 'conservative'. Many wealthy art collectors would be considered 'conservative' by definition of the word. I don't think anyone is 100% fiscal or social conservative or that anyone is 100% fiscal or social liberal. Just thought I would point that out. The myth that all conservatives are against art comes from the NEA mess during the 90s. Which a Democrat controlled congress could have stopped I might add. Artblogs (talk) 07:29, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

WHY are ALL the "examples" of artists MEN?

Sexism leads to both irrationalism and boredom.

Plus it's just plain boring

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.141.231.74 (talk • contribs)

Actually, they're not. Ty 10:47, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Examples

It is fine to have examples of arts and artists. Of course they are only examples, not statistically representative (what kind of statistical approach would be adequate?). Many encyclopedias have such lists, for instance, lists of types of insects with one of each type. They illustrate the extention of the word and add interest to the article. 80.225.9.154 19:15, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

I changed john keats with pablo nerud at the voice "poet".. it gives more a glance of internationalism IMHO... --Sailko 16:48, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

More to the point - the Arts area has extensive lists of artists already - shouldn't this article be referring to those rather than trying to create a new list of a somewhat arbitrary nature. I'd suggest this section needs a structure and headings and links to the places where rather better lists can be found. (sorry forgot to include signature!) Cosmopolitancats 00:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Does anybody actually think that this list holds any value? By whose criteria were the examples chosen? I vote to keep a list of types of artist and delete references to individuals - those exist in the lists of artists which exist anyway

I suggest we make more links to the existing categories of artists and in so doing connect this article up to the rest of the arts articles and make it a more coherent with the rest of wikipedia. Cosmopolitancats 00:13, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

eerm - the guidance says 'be bold' so I was and removed all the names of individuals. This article is about the nature of an artist not individual artists as exemplars - particularly when could think of much better examples for some of those listed.Cosmopolitancats 01:16, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Just a quick note...Walt Disney produced some great animation, but he wasn't an artist; he was an entrepreneur who sponsored work by artists (animators). I've gone ahead and replaced him with his contemporary Chuck Jones, who is about equally iconic and was much more involved in animation itself. Of course, if we want to give the list a more international scope, there are plenty of great non-American animators--I'd suggest Lotte Reiniger or Jiří Trnka.--Lemuellio (talk) 01:15, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as stub, and the rating on other projects was brought up to Stub class. BetacommandBot 03:47, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Is it suitable for C-class now, or are there any major aspects that are still missing? The one noticeable problem is an almost complete lack of inline citations. Sionk (talk) 14:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

А жизнь пенсионера уже вообще .. какой-то идиотский ..

"Ништо не ново на Луне!" - сказал поэт. Но ништо не вечно и на Солнце !! ..

У артистов много эмоций и пониманий..

А у учёных - много знаний. И непониманий ..

Следовательно можно сложить и получить што-нибудь среднестатистическое и постаратьця увидеть тренда типа и сорвать на аукционе биржи куш .. ведь што день грядущий нам готовит если не то кто же ?? Если не ты !!

А "Да пропади всё пропадом !" - это уже - "клиника". Или "выражение чуфсфт". Как-то в общем .. так ..

176.59.192.28 (talk) 04:51, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

"Мартышка и очки" ..

Мартышка не знает што такое "Биология". Но очень ловко вертит - да хоть хвостом!

Артисту надо бы хоть раз пройти курсом "Технарей".

Так написал Михайло Великоломоносов !! ;)

Стоит здание "МГУ" горой. Внизу студенты. Как мартышки. )))

..

176.59.204.57 (talk) 10:11, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Musician

Ernest 'Kulani' Mahungele known by his stage name Superior RSA, is a South African young Hip-Hop/Rap musician (Born 28/03/2003) from Mpumalanga, Bushbuckridge. He started writing music back in 2016 while he was still doing grade 8 in high school, he was inspired by South African artists like Emtee, Nasty C and many more. his passion is to become one of the best in the country, get to work with the greatest artists and also inspire the youth not to give up on their dreams. Superior RSA (talk) 00:02, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Superior RSA is my favorite South African Artist! Superior RSA (talk) 18:36, 7 April 2022 (UTC)