Talk:Arthur Guinness

Arthur Guinness has been listed as one of the Agriculture, food and drink good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Review: March 12, 2022. (Reviewed version).

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Untitled

The following was part of the article but I think properly belongs on the talk page:

Small extra point - he died on 23 January 1803 and his gravestone says he was '78 years of age'. Therefor he was either born in early January 1725 or in 1724. Who says 24 September 1725? There is no birth certificate.

--Ryano 10:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Start classification

I have classified this article as a start due to its level of detail and organisation. Capitalistroadster 11:44, 6 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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Christian Influence

It would be great to cover, or rebut the deep Christian faith that drove Arthur to found his eponymous drink cf. [[1]] - surely ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.208.123.138 (talk) 18:36, 22 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Arthur's day" in 2009

The text (much of it verbiage) has been moved to the bottom of the page.86.44.159.233 (talk) 10:31, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Flag

Just wondering whether the Republic of Ireland's flag is appropriate under nationality. He was born in the Kingdom of Ireland and when he died, Ireland had become part of the UK. Whilst the Union Flag probably isn't appropriate, is the ROI flag?

90.196.105.181 (talk) 17:11, 24 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Republic of ireland is the best place to drink a Guinneas so yes : D Seamusalba (talk) 04:09, 22 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Republic of Ireland's flag is inappropriate as he wasn't born in the Republic of Ireland. He wasn't born when Ireland merged with Great Britain to form the United Kingdom so the Union Flag isn't appropraite either. The flag of the Kingdom of Ireland thus is the only appropriate flag. Mabuska (talk) 10:26, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:MOSFLAG - should be the Kingdom of Ireland symbol if anything.86.42.203.243 (talk) 06:05, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A rather late response, but none the less it is a good point. However the flag has since disappeared from the article altogether so there snone to correct at the moment :-) Mabuska ^(talk) 13:44, 12 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Descended from Gaelic Catholics in the 1600s

There is no need for this statement to be worded as such: The Guinness family, though Protestants, claimed descent from the Magennis Gaelic Catholic clan of County Down in the 1600s. It sounds slightly sectarian in overtone as why so blantantly declare it when there is no need? Especially when its inaccurate... Robert Bell in his book, The Book of Ulster Surnames, states: "In the sixteenth century, well before the Platation, many of the MacGuinnesses accepted the Reformation". For nitpickers; MacGuinness being of the same origin and meaning as Magennis, Maginnis and MacEnis in County Down at that time (all being interchangable). Mabuska (talk) 15:59, 2 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly Ken Maginnis was one, and a branch of the clan had the unusual name "MacEnaspick" - sons of a Magennis bishop of Dromore in the 1500s.86.46.227.159 (talk) 22:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mabuska you seem to have misunderstood the quote you yourself have provided. It indicates that some of the McGuinesses accepted Protestantism once it was brought in by foreigners, but that they themselves were originally Catholic Gaels. This is what the article itself originally stated and what you tried to change. Try to read your sources more thoroughly and critically next time

The article now just says that Guinness's parents were the children of Catholics. I can find no other mention of religion in the article. But I understand that Guinness was an Anglican (how else could he be the godson of an Anglican archbishop otherwise?). I find the article is now misleading and feel this needs some clarification.

Marchino61 (talk) 05:04, 14 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Was his beer baptised Catholic or Protestant?84.203.56.95 (talk) 13:05, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Politics

Is Indymedia.ie a suitable wikipedia source? It comes across as left-wing-pov and biased against business.86.46.212.174 (talk) 09:14, 4 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see nothing wrong with the source. The information it sources has nothing to do with business and is hardly bcking up left-wing or anti-right-wing agenda (talk) 10:34, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I've put his politics in context as it was a bit ragged. Unsurprisingly Grattan's Irish Patriot Party plus Edmund Burke.PatrickGuinness (talk) 18:11, 13 October 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Mabuska, you've asked for this to be discussed here, but you reverted my correction without the same courtesy. It should be clear that Independent Media Center is far from a neutral source; anyone can write on it, it is against "neo-Liberal" values, and has offended prosecutors in Italy, the USA and Britain. The essay was plain wrong to say that AG was against home rule, as he supported Grattan, whose Irish Patriot Party was the template for Irish home rule until 1918. I don't mind people coming up with new theories, but AG was a brewer, so his politics only need 3 lines. Instead of arguing that someone wasn't this label, or disliked that, it's surely far better to say what he liked and did.

Some of Grattan's supporters went on to join the United Irish movement, but Grattan and AG did not. The United Irish had 300,000 paid-up members by 1798, but this was less than 10% of the population of 5 million. I don't mind mentioning AG's non-membership; there is now a general assumption that the United Irish had near-universal support, but this is not supported by the numbers, nor by the results.PatrickGuinness (talk) 16:03, 10 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Circular Reporting

I have removed the longstanding quote:

with Arthur "directly opposed to any movement toward Irish independence" and wanting "Ireland to remain under British control"

This seems to have given rise to an unfortunate example of circular reporting. A quick Google search will show that all references to these "quotes" link back to Wikipedia, and the original source on Wikipedia is a blog post. It was inaccurately portrayed to make it look like this was a direct or contemporary quote by or about Guinness, but it is not. Also the original blog post states English control, not British control - so it wasn't even copied correctly. Jacobfrid (talk) 15:16, 7 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

Reviewer: Xx78900 (talk · contribs) 11:00, 11 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
When it comes to the prose, I have several notes:
Under the Early life section, you first mention his father, then later name the father. I think it would be clearer if he was named at first mention.
Done.

For the image of the church at Celbridge, it's written in away that implies that Guinness was raised in the church building.
Picture changed to the Magennis coat of arms.

The first time you use the '£' icon, I think you should have IR£ included. Also I think it would be helpful to include modern equivalents of the sums for help in comprehension, though this isn't a GA requirement.
Added with a link. I could not find a reliable inflation calculator, however, considering the Irish pound has not existed for 20 years.

When you say that Brewing was in the family of most Irish people at the time, what do you mean by that? People home-brewing poitín or most people brewing large quantities of beer? Also this seems like an unusual area of the section to include that bit, I'd put it either closer to the description of his ancestry (first paragraph) or closer to where he starts brewing (final paragraph).
The source says We should understand that brewing at this time in Ireland was very much a cottage industry—almost literally. Housewives did it, estate managers did it, brewhouse owners did it and, of course, breweries did it, mostly along the winding waterways of Dublin. I've tried my best to clarify that sentence. As for the location, I've switched the last two paragraphs in the Early life section for proper flow, as what used to be the last sentence mentions "one of the places" where Arthur likely learned how to brew, so it does flow to then include the role of beer in everyday life.

Under the Guinness Brewery section, you say 4 acres site, where I think you mean 4 acre site.
The conversion template automatically does "acres" plural so I redid the sentence for the flow

"Was meant to terminate" would read better as "Was intended to terminate" imo, but again, what you have is fine for GA.
Changed

"he placed £100 down" -> "he made a downpayment of £100".
Changed

"the Corporation became angry" -> "the Corporation had become angry".
Changed

I would prefer the term "prominent figure" to "prominent party", but tbh that's just personal and whichever you prefer is grand.
Changed

In the Family section, I would change "socio-politically important relatives" to "socio-politically prominent relatives".
Done

You say that "Hosea... instead chose to enter the clergy", but without clarifying that as firstborn son he would've been expected to inherit the brewery.
Added/clarified

Arthur Guinness II is described as third son, when it seems that he is in fact the second son, but the third child.
You're right, good catch

You say that Guinness II's son is "also named Benjamin". I would say "named for his uncle Benjamin" or something, I think it would be clearer.
Changed

In the Politics and religion section, Dublin City Council is mentioned. Unless there existed another City Council in the past, this is almsot certainly supposed to read Dublin Corporation.
The source said City Council but that felt off to me. Changed to Corporation

The Kildare Knot is described as being "made of wealthy Protestants and Catholics". This should say "made up of" or "comprised of". Also, is there a reason to specify Protestants and Catholics, isntead of just people?
I believe the specification in the source was because most of these dining clubs were Protestant only. Changed to "people regardless of religion".

It says "he was opposed, however, to the Irish Rebellion of 1798". I think a one sentence descriptor of the goals of the Rebellion would be useful here.
Added.

Was it described as the "black Protestant porter", or just as "black Protestant porter"?
The full quote is "Guinness's black Protestant porter", but I removed "Guinness's" to reduce repetition. Changed to "his "black Protestant porter""

Governor of Meath Hospital or "the Meath Hospital"?
Source just said "Meath Hospital", so removed "the"

In the Later life and death section, the word "which" is misspelled as "whihch".
Fixed.

In the Legacy section, I would change "with" in the opening sentence to "having generated".
Done.

I think it is worth noting when the Guiness Storehouse was converted/opened, but whether or not it is included will not stop me passing the article.
Added the opening date, as I could not find conversion dates.
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars, etc.:
It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Photo in the infobox is missing a caption - A quick google search reveals it was made in 1759, so perhaps mention that as the caption.
Added.
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

Hi GhostRiver. I'm going to be reviewing this page. At first glance this seems like it'll pass pretty easily, the only thing I'm hesitant about from the outset is that the lede section seems to talk a lot about his early life, and I'm not sure if that's relevant there, as opposed to just a summary of his accomplishments. Anyway, I'll do a full review now and provide feedback below.

Okay just done. Great article! I had a few issues with the prose, but it was generally very well written, and very informative. I never knew Guinness was such a socially progressive man! You did well to focus on the man, without getting sidelined by the by the company. Let me know your thoughts on my comments about the prose, a lot of what I said was personal preference over something I'd insist on, so I'm likely going to be passing this imminently, I'd just like to hear your thoughts.

Xx78900 Thank you for the review! Putting together this article was both informative and entertaining, and a great improvement over the previous iteration of this article. I've responded to all comments above! — Ghost River 15:25, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

A prompt and thorough response. I’ll pass this now. Great work! Xx78900 (talk) 15:41, 12 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ale vs Porter

There’s mention of a couple of times about Guiness switching production at the Dublin brewery from “Ale” to ”Porter”. To my understanding Porter is a subset of Ale. I can’t access the original sources but hopefully someone has insight to explain what type of Ale was originally brewed. 14.201.87.62 (talk) 12:55, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Usually Ale and Porter (beer) are considered sub-sets of Beer, rather than one being a sub-set of another. DeCausa (talk) 13:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]