Talk:Artemis/Archive 1

Archive 1

Random nitpicks

In the story of Adonis it says that: "This version is suspect because it implies that Artemis had lain with Ares and by virtually all accounts, she remained chaste throughout time." How can a version of a story be suspect? That implies that somehow one version is "truer" than another, which doesn't make very much sense in context. (Perhaps it is meant that that the version with Ares is corrupted from an older one?) It can be noted that it conflicts with many stories which name her chaste and virginal, but I don't see how it's "suspect."

Also, there's not really a good segue into the section devoted to stories of Artemis. I renamed one section to "Tales of Artemis and Men" from simply "Men" but there should be a proper introduction to the whole section. It should include information about who told the stories, how do we know of them, etc. --Starwed 02:59, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Also, there was what seemed to be an ad placed in the neopaganism section. The IP address which added it seemed related to the one it linked to, so I took that as confirmation and deleted it. --Starwed 03:11, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

The birth section starts by just repeating the introduction, and it is rather short. I remember the myth of the twin's birth being reasonably involved, so it should be expanded some. (I'm not sure I have time to get around to it, though. :( But there should be plenty of resources on this if someone feels like it.) --Starwed 03:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Someone had added to the Birth section, but it was rather badly phrased. There are definatley multiple versions of the birth story out there: In some Leto couldn't give birth on the ground, in others she needed a place where the sun had never shone. There was also a serpant which either chased her or guarded the island... I might actually go to the library and look some of this up eventually... --Starwed 23:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Neopagans

The nasty bit about "Neopagan sects [sic]" needs some serious work, amongst the article in its entireness. → Chèvredan∫ante ^{talk · contrib} 00:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I.e. sources, etc. --→ Chèvredan∫ante ^{talk · contrib} 00:45, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Artemis and men

Am I readin this wrong or did artemis have a relationship with ares or anyone else because most of the miths state that she disliked men please let me know send a reply to sexybitch@hotmail.com

Quite right, the section begins with the assertion that Artemis sent the boar to destroy Adonis (correct), and that in another version it was Ares (also correct). The rest of the line and subsequent paragraph additions become confused: the bracketed "(who was a lover of Ares)" statement is reffering to Aphrodite, who was a lover of both Ares and Adonis, and not to Artemis.

Both versions of the story are described in Apollodorus' Bibliotheke C3rd BC. I've now altered the content of this section to match the Greek source.

Theranos 21:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Artemis in popular culture

This section has been repeatedly removed in its entirety as 'trivia'. I disagree, as I found some of the citations of the appearance of Artemis in poular culture interesting and revealing. It seems inconsistent to discuss modern-day worship of Artemis, but yet to dismiss as 'trivial' evidence of the interpretation and incorporation of the ancient myths into contemporary culture and media. Jpb1301 20:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Sometimes its better making a seperate page for this info such as "Artemis (popular culture)" and then make a heading and link on the main page. Otherwise some of the mythology entries get swamped with pop culture lists. So, perhaps that is a compromise.

EG Cerberus and Cerberus (popular culture)

The problem with removing the information without first placing it in a page entitled Artemis (popular culture) means that now it's nowhere to be found on the site. Besides, isn't deciding that references to Artemis in popular culture are trivia a bit biased? I was a little surprised not to see the section on the Artemis page to be honest. LTD2 23:06, 21 September 2011

Editing I

So many scatter-brained "associations". I've removed the following texts:

• "She didn't yet know of her future."
• "In some Ancient Cultures Artemis was believed to be the male god of the plague, but this is not very widely known and sadly little is known about this."

If you have this page on your Watchlist, let's work to bring it up to the standard shown in some other Greek deities' entries. --Wetman 15:29, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

I've cleaned it of vandalisms and deletions again. --Wetman 08:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Sources of myth

I've removed some of the comments on classical sources from the page. Its a problematic area. Writers such as Callimachus, Hyginus, Anton. Lib., Ovid and others draw heavily on a host of older, now lost, Greek sources. Dating myths is extremely difficult! Case in point, Callimachus' Hymn to Artemis: some of these stories may have been sourced from the now lost Delian or other cult hymns to the goddess. --Theranos 18:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

...a suggestion that has been made by whom? Many items of "lost" documentation might be similarly conjured; a minor edit renders the information unchallengeable: "The childhood of Artemis is not embodied in any surviving myth." It doesn't seem very discerning to delete perfectly sound information, such as that the complete story of Siproites of Crete does not survive in any mythographer's works, or that the childhood of Artemis does not appear in any surviving myth, only in Callimachus' sentimental picture— and yet retain "There is a modern idea that Artemis once loved Orion, wanted to marry him, and was tricked into killing him...". The better sort of Wikipedians don't delete information whimsically. --Wetman 16:53, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the information because it is merely someone's opinion as to which classical sources present true "myths." Callimachus' others hymns contain many stories found in older sources, so there is no reason to disregard the hymn to Artemis. Antoninus Liberalis, is a mythographer, his work Metamorphoses is a collection of myths. I agree the section "modern idea ... " should be removed. I was not reviewing the whole article, merely looking to slightly improve some statements. You don't need to be so tetchy. Its a collaborative effort, I'm quite open to discuss it. --Theranos 20:00, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

I've added some quotes from Callimachus' text to give a sense of the playful air. Even though his picture of baby Artemis charming her doting father is purely of his own poetic imagination, it is imbedded in a hymn that reveals his deeply learned grasp of mythology. The alert reader will doubtless sense the difference between what is urbanely charming in Callimachus and what is serious. Let's insert an apt quote or two from Callimachus' modern editors when we find them.-Wetman 06:38, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

That looks better. There is another online translation here as well: Callimachus Hymns. What do you think the best way is to list classical sources into these wiki articles? - as footnotes or within the body of the text of the article : and then either as content text or in the form of bracketed source notes (like the Smith Dict. of Classical Biography & Myth)? I've amended the Orion section anyway adding the source Hyginus on Istrus (a very obscure Greek poet!). --Theranos 07:28, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

The Ephesian goddess

Would it be better to create a seperate article on the Ephesian goddess instead of incorporating it with this article> Although the Greeks did identify the Ephesian with Artemis she was really an Anatolian divinity, related to the Phrygian mother-goddess. --Theranos 12:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

By all means cut and paste the relevant material here and expand it as a separate article, leaving a For main article, see... heading here. The reason we don't cannibalize articles to produce a myriad splinters, is that information is lost as context is progressively stripped away. --Wetman 18:18, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

References

I found and added a NYT reference for the sacrificial testes bit, but I've not been able to find the original academic paper where Gerard Seitele made the suggestion. Hope this is sufficient - if it's not, please leave a note on my talk page and I'll try to find it at my next visit to the library. Squeezeweasel 19:28, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

The New York Times article is in its travel section, with such blithe remarks as "Venus has long been popular with men because she so seldom bothered to dress"— which might not be suitable for noting in the Wikipedia article Venus (mythology). The article by Gerard Seitele or Seitel was published in 1979: a temporary glitch keeps me from accessing JSTOR. When I can, I'll introduce a precis of the article that offers some of Seitele's reasoning. "Gerard Seitele" and "Gerard Seitel" do not call up any hits at Google, most unusually for an academic figure, who one supposes publishes at regular intervals. The NY Times copy was inspired by the cheap heat-molded Turkish tourist mementoes of The Lady of Ephesus. --Wetman 21:07, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

There are no references to a Gerard Seitele at JSTOR The Scholarly Journal Archive, meaning that no articles by a "Gerard Seitele" are archived and that there are no mentions of a Gerard Seitele in archived articles. Can we get a source for these "bull's testicles", which are spreading around the Internet in amateur myth websites? Shouldn't we comment this out for the time being? --Wetman 22:34, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

All right. Gerard Seiterle is our source for this theory, which didn't take account of the gourd-shaped ambrer drops that had apparently decorated the archaic xoanon before the flood that destroyed the earlier "Artemision" (Anton Bammer, "A "Peripteros" of the Geometric Period in the Artemision of Ephesus" Anatolian Studies 40 (1990), pp. 137-160). I'll make a stab at reworking this material at Temple of Ephesus, with a precis here, from the peer-reviewed sources, for your emendations. --Wetman 23:42, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

The bull's testes theory is described in Mark Munn's The Mother of the Gods, Athens, and the Tyranny of Asia: A Study of Sovereignty in Ancient Religion. Although I don't believe he is the first to propound this theory. There is also a possible allusion to the representation in an Anatolian myth found in Clement of Alexandria's Exhortation to the Greeks, in which bull's testes are described being cast into the lap of the Mother goddess as a propitiatory offering. --Theranos 17:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

Ilana of Konel and related edits seem to be vandalism, google turns up nothing, not to mention the childish comments that went with it.

The part about Endymion is incorrect. Selene was the lover of Endymion.

This article seems to suffer quite a few random vandalism. I suggest making it uneditable to unregistered users. If I knew how, I'd do it myself. Those who mind don't matter, and those who matter don't mind. 22:46, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

This page really does seem to attract vandals. It seems that every time I check my watchlist, I need to revert something. I'm not sure if the volume of vandalism is high enough to get semi-protection, but I'd certainly support such an action at this point. --Starwed 07:19, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Possible vandalism

Can anyone check this edit, it might be vandalism. · AndonicO ^Talk 14:20, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure, some sources say they were 14, like this one and sites mentioned that they were only 12, check here and here. But About.com mentioned both numbers, so maybe both should be mentioned? \\Zhi\\ 18:19, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

FA and GA links

Can anyone add these links to the article? I think there are a couple of articles in other languages that are so. I can't edit anything right now, so could someone please try to add them? \\Zhi\\ 18:12, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Orion and Artemis

Okay, I'm probably going to be proved wrong but, I have read in a book that Orion was Artemis' hunting partner and they were good friends. Then Apollo summoned a scorpion and he was killed. Is that right? MTob (talk) 19:26, 27 March 2008 (UTC)MTob

See Orion and references. --Wetman (talk) 07:25, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Eternal adolescence

The primary introduction should include something about her wish to never mature, as that was a signifigent aspect of the goddess. That and her virginity should be stressed a lot more. Besides, somebody needs to clean up that introAnkhAnanku 18:57, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

she is the goddess of the hunt and the moon  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.179.89.34 (talk) 21:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC) 

Modern depiction of the Greek Gods

And especially the Goddesses.

We have to present the Olympians on wikipedia in a way which is morally-correct, so they become likable for the general public. Ain't nothing wrong with morally-correct censorship, this only contributes to the wellbeing of public morality.

Best regards, Phalanxpursos 16:08, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree, I find everything wrong with censorship regardless of the motive behind it. Especially here on Wikipedia. And no one, no one, but myself has the authority to decide what's "morally correct" for me. Spartan198 (talk) 10:52, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Some tongue in cheek here? But why would anyone ever want to present the gods as likeable? Just look at the section on Niobe, where Artemis shoots and kills Niobe's seven daughters Kognos (talk) 21:17, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Goddess of the hunt

We have an editor here who insistently comes down hard on the wrong end of the empty quibble "Artemis was a goddess who hunted, not the goddess of the hunt." In point of fact, Artemis and her precursor were protectresses of the animals before they were patronesses of the hunt. Artemis always carries a bow and quiverful of arrows: in what myth is she seen to shoot down an animal? Any animal? I think none. When Artemis does shoot, and she does, her victims are Orion, the Niobids, or human sufferers of plague and sickness. Indeed, when she would destroy a human-turned-animal, other agents are always employed to do the work: Actaeon's dogs, Callisto's bear-hunting son. This point should be made clearly in the article, by someone willing to provide a footnoted reference for every statement. •yawn•--Wetman (talk) 01:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Archeological images of original Artemis of Ephesus

I hope this doesn’t repeat twice. I'd posted earlier but do not see it. I have placed a link in the “external links” section, featuring some wonderful pics of the actual archeological images of Artemis as she actually appears in her ancient home of Ephesus. Her worship was later transported to Greece, Turkey and Rome. Artemis’ temples were destroyed and re-built seven times. However, the museum managed to salvage some of the actual original images of her. Enjoy! Anagossii--74.229.102.208 (talk) 05:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The link in question: Ancient Archeological Images of Artemis of Greece and Rome: a personal website with several grainy images of the Lady of Ephesus, copyright uncertain, already well illustrated in the article. Linkcruft. Reverted--Wetman (talk) 07:45, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Artemis and the Moon

The article currently makes the claim (without citation) that the association of Artemis with the moon is "a popular idea which has little foundation". I wonder how this claim can be made? She is not just sometimes, but often represented with a crescent at her brow, and though it can be (and has been) argued convincingly that this is the result of an association with Hecate or Selene, this association was made at least as early as a fragment of Aeschylus that refers to the the shining light of the sun as contrasted with the light of the moon ("the starry eye of Leto's child"). This association, clearly established in some places as early as the mid 6th to mid 5th century BCE (the approximate period in which Aeschylus lived) is recognized in the Oxford Classical Dictionary (the one I have to hand is the 3rd Edition, and I find this association between Artemis and the moon via Aeschylus in the article on Selene). If the association between Artemis and the moon was recognized at this early date and was only reinforced over the centuries until paganism was generally supplanted, how can we say this is a popular idea with little foundation? --Picatrix (talk) 17:04, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm still gathering citations, but it is possible that mention should be made of the association between the moon, reproduction, monthly cycles and childbirth. Artemis (in one of her manifestations or another) was often associated with childbirth, or with young women up until the time that they 'became women' (presumably associated with the onset of menstruation, cf. relations between some Greek terms for moon, month and menses - existing for obvious reasons). Further, the moon is deeply associated with hunting, based upon changes in animal activity which correspond to the lunar cycle. Finally, as the sibling (or wife) of Apollo in some cults her association with the moon (as a counterpoint to his association with the sun) seem relatively early. --Picatrix (talk) 16:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

The association of Artemis, rather than Selene, with the moon is Hellenistic, like the association of Apollo with the Sun; the moon cult is much older, but there is no evidence that I know of that it bore that name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 03:41, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

That counter-intuitive association of virginal Artemis with childbirth is a consequence of conflating her with Eileithyia, venerated in a cave cult from Minoan times in Crete. There is no connection of Eileithyia with the moon. You see, Artemis, like the other Olympian goddesses, assumed several quite separate pre-Olympian roles. One can't whip them all together, though, into a syncretic Artemis smoothie of lunar cycles, menstrual blood, hunting, childbirth. At each place, at each time, on each occasion there is a quite specific local Artemis, which we have trouble enough comprehending anyway.--Wetman (talk) 05:45, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Phoebe bad link

The link to Phoebe which is supposed to be to the Phoebe of mythology actually goes to the astronomical Phoebe. I can't change this myself because I'm unregistered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.0.169.202 (talk) 10:06, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit suggestion

{{editsemiprotected}} Only a small one but maybe worth looking at. In the Iphigenia and the Taurian Artemis section it is stated that "Artemis then snatches Iphigenia from the altar and substitutes a deer". This is not actually accuracte - it is the account that Agamemnon has Talthybius give to Clytemnestra, but she doesn't believe him. In some versions of the myth Agamemnon then enters covered in Iphigenia's blood and tells Clytemnestra that Iphigenia is with Artemis, a statement that could be taken to mean she was saved by the Goddess or is actually dead. A better ending to the section might be "Agamemnon agrees to the sacrifice but it is unclear as to whether he completes it or whether Artemis rescues Iphigenia at the last moment, replacing her with a deer". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulknox (talk • contribs) 03:20, 28 January 2010

Not done: Welcome and thanks for contributing. Could you supply a reference which supports the change? Thanks, Celestra (talk) 04:22, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Hi...

In the E. P. Coleridge translation, Clytemnestra, after being told the tale of Artemis' intervention, says:

Clytemnestra [1615]: Which of the gods, my child, has stolen you? How am I to address you? How can I be sure that this is not an idle tale told to cheer me, to make me cease my piteous lamentation for you?

Agamemnon enters and says, ambiguously:

Agamemnon: Lady, we may be counted happy, as far as concerns our daughter; for in truth she has fellowship with gods. But you must take this tender child and start for home, for the army is looking now to sail. [1625] Fare you well! it is long before I shall greet you on my return from Troy.; may it be well with you!

When the stories were adapted for the RSC in the late 70s under the title "The Greeks: The War", John Barton chose to re-word Clytemnestra's above statement to a simple "I do not believe you". When Agamemnon enters, his stage directions explicitly state that Agamemnon should have "his chest smeared with Iphigenia's blood".

Hope this helps! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Paulknox (talk • contribs) 06:36, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

Something wrong

Someone seems to have been having some fun :D (if you know what i mean) with this page... check line 11 and below...

WHO EVER WROTE ARTEMIS ARTICLE NEEDS TO CHECK AGAIN!!! under birth it says 20 daughters of the ocean and 60 from the river, this is wrong!!! IT'S THE OTHER WAY!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.44.149 (talk) 05:15, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Also look at the "Artimus in Art" section someone has vandalized it with adolesent info that couldn't possible be true.

Editing II

Okay, when you edit a page make sure you spell things right, like "Kyklopes" its "Cyclopes" and it's not "okeanus" its "Oceanus" and yeah, seriously, the editing, its not funny, its rather annoying, now of course if you DID want to put something funny in there, try to make it ridiculously obvious and not DELETE or mess up important parts of the article actually I stand corrected, okeanus is right, but the kyklops thing is still wrong —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.37.102.189 (talk) 21:31, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Children

4 Children of known names- Alkinsphor, calliwea, Anna, Colerolph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.225.250.27 (talk) (UTC)

What's your point or argument? Please sign yourself. ICE77 (talk) 06:59, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Etymology I

Artemis: Arta/Arda /Arte ="river" (in Luwian Language) , mis ="goddess"

see Arda (Maritsa) & Arda (Italy)

more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Luwian_language#Luwian_Gods_and_Goddesses Böri (talk) 10:36, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Artemis (pronunciation in Ancient Greek: [ártemis]) was one of the most widely venerated of the Ancient Greek deities. In the classical period of Greek mythology, Artemis (Greek: (nominative) Ἄρτεμις, (genitive) Ἀρτέμιδος) was often described as the daughter of Zeus and Leto, and the twin sister of Apollo. She was the Hellenic goddess of the hunt, wild animals, wilderness, childbirth, virginity, fertility, young girls and disease in women and often was depicted as a huntress carrying a bow and arrows.[1] The deer and the cypress were sacred to her. In later Hellenistic times, she even assumed the ancient role of Eileithyia in aiding childbirth.

Artemis later became identified with Selene,[2] a Titaness who was a Greek moon goddess, sometimes depicted with a crescent moon above her head. She was also identified with the Roman goddess Diana,[3] with the Etruscan goddess Artume, and with the Greek or Carian goddess Hecate.[4]

Semi-protected & needs cleanup

This article is semi-protected yet really needs cleanup. I can't add a cleanup tag or fix sections like this one...

Artemis often portrayed as a a young woman aged 13 - 19. Her face was pretty, as pretty or even prettier than Aphrodite. Her body was tall, slim, small hip, thin breasts and tall forehead. As a goddess of hunting, Artemis wore a knee length tunic, and carrying bow and quiver on her shoulder. Her hair perfectly tied back. Sometimes, a stag could be seen with her or a hunting dog. As a goddess of moon, Artemis wore long robe and sometimes a veil covered her head. This image almost similar to the images of Hecate and Selene who also the parts of moon goddesses triad. Both Artemis as goddess of hunting and goddess of moon often wore moon crown.

There's a lot more. Please someone unlock or clean up. Ld5000 (talk) 06:06, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Deers?

What are "Deers"? I am farmiliar with term "deer" (plural) and the term "a deer" (singular). The term "Deers" is not in the English language. Please correct this 97.126.136.189 (talk) 15:56, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that this needs to be unlocked and cleaned up for multiple reasons. :97.126.136.189 (talk) 15:58, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

There are numerous spelling mistakes, I hope someone with access can make the necessary alterations. Eó (talk) 23:03, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Affraid -> Afraid

I'm an IP and this is semi-protected, but there is a typo that needs to be altered from affraid -> afraid. --173.58.232.51 (talk) 20:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

105 Artemis

Please take note that the Celestial Object, 105 Artemis is an Asteroid, not a Minor Planet - as what is written in the "Astronomy" section at the bottom of the page. Also, please be sure to revise and clean up this article for typographical errors as soon as possible. Thank you. 114.108.192.9 (talk) 08:13, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Artamis

in Doric Greek Böri (talk) 13:07, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Questions and comments I

I read this article before. I believe somebody added extra text but didn't bother fixing errors. I made several fixes. I now make a few comments.

1. Sections Wooing the Goddess, Adonis, Orion, The Aloadae, Callisto, Niobe, Chione, Atalanta, Oeneus and the Meleagrids all lack references and sources.

2. "Artemis was born at the sixth day, the reason why it was sacred for her."

Sixth day of what? Week? This is not clear.

3. "Laphria, a festival for Artemis in Patrai."

The explanation that follows really needs to be reworked.

4. "Only in post-Classical art do we find representations of Artemis-Diana with the crown of the crescent moon, as Luna."

"We" should not be used. The text should be in the third person.

5. "Ancient statues of Artemis have been found with crescent moons, but these moons are always Renaissance-era additions."

This sounds like a contradiction. I assume this is to point that moons only appear from the Renaissance but there are instances of use in the ancient times as well. If that's the case, the sentence should be reworked.

6. "The boar is one of the favorite animals of the hunters, and also hard to tame."

I don't see the connection between the first and the last parts of the sentence. It just doesn't sound good.

7. "Only one of 121 columns still stand in Ephesus. The rest were used for making churches, roads, and forts."

Who used them? I assume it was some Turkish genius who appreciated Greek architecture.

ICE77 (talk) 07:08, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 96.238.220.129 on 10 June 2011

To whom it may concern, Apollo is Artemis's twin BROTHER, not sister. Please change it, my whole class relies on Wikipedia and they did a report on Artemis and they got the wrong information. Now the principle of the school is blaming me for giving them this information. This incident almost cost me my teaching career. Thanks for your time, Jane Crockerst

96.238.220.129 (talk) 04:10, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

That's what the article says right now. In the lead it says "Artemis ...was often described as the daughter of Zeus and Leto, and the twin sister of Apollo." In the Birth section, it says, "Various conflicting accounts are given in Classical Greek mythology of the birth of Artemis and her twin brother, Apollo. All accounts agree, however, that she was the daughter of Zeus and Leto and that she was the twin sister of Apollo." Further, I note that there have been no changes to the article since April, so it's not just that there was temporary vandalism. I don't know if you/your class just read the article wrong, or what happened, but it is currently written correctly and as you are suggesting. Qwyrxian (talk) 07:12, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Artemis and other goddesses

Artemis is not associated with Hecate, because Hecate was the cousin of both Artemis and Apolo, please do not write that again!

Imorthodox23 (talk) 2:56, 17 August, 2011 (UTC)

Wrong metal

The bow and arrows of Artemis are made of silver as is her chariot please fix this if you can — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.25.226.143 (talk) 21:48, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Gaps in the article

I found many gaps in the article. And I read that one of Artemis' sacred animals is a snake. Am I wrong? Also, Artemis' chariot is made of SILVER. Along with her bow, arrows, and everything else(basically) MEH. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.53.217.27 (talk) 02:37, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 8 April 2012

The entry for Bear at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis#Fauna reads as follows:

The sacrifice of a bear for Artemis started from the Brauron cult. Every year, a little girl age between five and ten was sent to Artemis' temple at Brauron. Arktos e Brauroniois, a text by, Suidas, a Byzantine writer, told a legend about a bear that was tamed by Artemis, and introduced to the people of Athens. They touched it and played with it, until one day a group of girls poked the bear until it attacked them. A A brother of one of the girls killed the bear, so Artemis sent a plague in revenge. The Athenians consulted an oracle to understand how to end the plague. The oracle suggested that, in payment for the bear's blood, every Athenian virgin should not be allowed to marry until she had served Artemis in her temple ('played the bear for the goddess').

There are a few bonus commas in there which made for halting reading. I recommend the following for readability:

The sacrifice of a bear for Artemis started with the Brauron cult. Every year a girl between five and ten years of age was sent to Artemis' temple at Brauron. The Byzantine writer Suidos relayed the legend in Arktos e Brauroniois. A bear was tamed by Artemis and introduced to the people of Athens. They touched it and played with it until one day a group of girls poked the bear until it attacked them. A brother of one of the girls killed the bear, so Artemis sent a plague in revenge. The Athenians consulted an oracle to understand how to end the plague. The oracle suggested that, in payment for the bear's blood, no Athenian virgin should be allowed to marry until she had served Artemis in her temple ('played the bear for the goddess'). ScottEff (talk) 16:59, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

 Done Pol430 talk to me 22:36, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

Artemis as Bethany

File:ArtemisGoddess.jpg

Modern Neo-Pagan representation of Artemis, under the name of Bethany.

This is modern Neo-Pagan art of Artemis (Bethany). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Russianamerican1 (talk • contribs) 21:00, 27 April 2012 (UTC) I like your picture very much but what makes it a good example of modern neo-pagan art? Why should we choose it over others? Jojalozzo 21:20, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

True.... I see.--Russianamerican1 (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure if my example [now deleted from Commons] was a good example of modern neo-pagan either. How can we tell? My example was more professional but that may not be a requirement. Jojalozzo 21:58, 27 April 2012 (UTC)

Words missing

"Multiple versions Actaeon myth survive", please add "of the" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noahcall (talk • contribs) 10:02, 13 October 2013 (UTC)

Etymology II

To User:Flibjib8 (and any other editor it may concern):
As far I as can tell there is no scholarly consensus on Artemis being most likely derived from arktos. I'm certainly not a linguist but I can certainly use the web-net and I also can certanly read: arktos seems to indeed be a proposed etymology (though judging e.g. by using google books as a metric, hardly a very popular one amongst scholars) but certainly not the most probable one. Moreover you (or whoever) have only included 1 single source claiming this, itself a book on Shamanism; you should, to say the least, perhaps do more and better on providing sources?!?!?
I, along with some other editors, have been fighting the last few days (and judjing from teh article's edit history the last few years) against some anonynous editors (probably from Iran) who have been long trying to force upon us a Persian origin view (see Artemisia I of Caria), probably on multiple levels (i.e. not just about the etymology); please let's not have the same thing repeated all over again this time with some other proposed etymology.
P.S.The old 19th century sources were meant to be indicative of the variety of the proposed etymologies. In the inital article use (at Artemisia) they were also meant to counterbalance the supposed certainty of Persian origin that was being pushed for based on selective use of a similar source(s). Feel free to move them to the bottom. Feel free to add more. Feel free to add more recent ones.
P.P.S.I haven't done any "inappropriate deletions" as your edit summary states; apart, as far as I can tell, from the "(variants Arktemis, Arktemisa)", that is. Could you please provide an instance inside an attested ancient text of these Arktemis and Arktemisa variant forms??? They certainly sound interesting but I can find no such thing; I could only find, through my admittedly limited means and in the admittedly limited time I've spent, arktemis being a proposed original form (ultimately perhaps coming from Hartung's gleichsam ἄρκτεμις etc??).
P.P.P.S. Btw this is what "your" source reads:
The name Artemis, as it has come down to us, does not yield a Greek etymology. However, Arktemis or Arktemisa, which, I believe, stand closer to the original, will render easily a linguistic affinity with the Hellenic tongue. Arktos means a bear" and the topographical "north" or the Arctic, in both ancient and modem Greek. Arkteia was a festival, held every five years, in honor of Artemis at her temple in Brauron, at which the young girls of Athens, garbed in saffron dresses, "danced like bears" (arktoi). They played the bear, arkteïein, it was said of them, and perhaps the saffron hue was to recall the color of bears' fur.48 Both the Greek arktos and Latin ursus stem from the same Indo-European root, as is demonstrated by their relationship to the Sanskrit rksas, which gave us the word Arctic, a region, or a habitat, of the bear. Near Cyzicus, in the Pontus ranges of Asia Minor, there was a place known as Arcton to the ancient geographers, meaning "Bear Mountain." It would hardly be disputed, today, that the arrival of Artemis into Greece took place from the north, where she could have been a totemic deity associated with the cult of the bear or even with some form of shamanism.
This is hardly enough, at least imo, to substantiate that the aforementioned etymology is the most probable, the most likely one...
Thanatos|talk|contributions 01:40, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

Silver and golden bow and arrows

So, under one part of Artemis's wikipage, it incorrectly states that she uses "golden bow and arrows". Artemis actually uses silver bow and arrows. It's her twin brother, Apollo, who uses golden ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cshepard887 (talk • contribs) 15:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 May 2014

I am sorry to inform you, that on your greek paper about artemis, her real roman equivalant is zoe, nit diana Zenowlzoe (talk) 15:04, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article, and which could be difficult as there doesn't appear to be a Roman God called Zoe, although there was a saint. - Arjayay (talk) 15:17, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 September 2014

Artemis today is worshipped by Greeks and as Diane to Romans. 71.38.111.76 (talk) 00:08, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 00:29, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Crescent Moon as Attribute - Unsupported Assertion

The article currently states:

"Only in post-Classical art do we find representations of Artemis-Diana with the crown of the crescent moon, as Luna. In the ancient world, although she was occasionally associated with the moon, she was never portrayed as the moon itself. Ancient statues of Artemis have been found with crescent moons, but these moons are always Renaissance-era additions."

The first sentence is a flat assertion and should be supported with a citation from published (preferably scholarly sources.) The second sentence is confusing inits meaning, but appears to be another flat assertion requiring citation. Both assertions may be true, (for all I know,) but they need to be supported.

I also notice that this issue has been raised before on this page. Three years have past without anyone producing a supporting citation. I would suggest that if one cannot be found soon, this paragraph should be removed as it fails to meet wiki standards.TheCormac (talk) 16:32, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what to do at this point. While reading on a separate topic, I have come across an ancient relief from Lydia currently in the Louve, in which the Goddess, identified in an inscription as Artemis, is shown with a crescent moon on her brow. It is reproduced in Maarten J. Vermaseren"s Cybele and Attis: The Myth and the Cult, English translation A.M.H. Lemmers, published by Thames and Hudson in London in 1977. (See p. 30 and plate 16.) This would be a published scholarly work which falsifies these flat, unsupported statements. Yet, I am no art historian. It seems to me that, unless these sentences can be improved WITH CITATIONS, they really need to be removed from this article.TheCormac (talk) 22:22, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, wait a minute - Here is a statue from the 2nd century CE, based on a 4th century BCE original and now in the Vatican museum in which Artemis clearly has a crescent moon on her brow: http://www.ancient.eu/image/1202/

What gives? Is the paragraph in the article whole cloth fiction?TheCormac (talk) 22:32, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

The assertions in question were added 12 August 2006 by user "Theranos" who is no longer registered. I have looked at a number of standard art history references and can find no published statement to support these statements. I have found artifacts from major museums that contradict it. I am therefore deleting. I will be working on getting a fair-use photo of one of the artifacts for addition to this article. If anybody objects and has a citation supporting the assertion that Artemis was not represented in the Classical period with a crescent moon on her brow or head, please DO change and add the citation.TheCormac (talk) 02:58, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Edit request - Lede

The lede claims:"Some scholars[2] believe that the name, and indeed the goddess herself, was originally pre-Greek.[3]" Implied is that the scholars' expertise is relevant to the mythology, but reference [2] is a dead link to Wharton Business School, Univ.Penn., business leadership program (apparently last active in 2013 administered by AZ State U, Glendale for Afghani women.) My major problem with this statement, however, is not the dead or weak (citation [3] is to 50 and 60 year old books!) citations. Nor is it about the utterly trivial claim that "some scholars believe" X, which is meaningless (and misleading) unless the scholarship is RELEVANT. My problem is that I have no idea what it means for "the name, and the goddess herself.." to be "pre-Greek". I have no idea what "pre-Greek" means! (Nor do I understand how a mythological (immortal) deity has nationality). Belief in, worship of, narrative about, representations of? Sure. Greece (Hellas) was populated in the paleolithic, so it might be possible to trace the worship of Artemis back before Hellenic Greece, it certainly hasn't been demonstrated that she wasn't known 15,000 years ago in that geographical area. As far as pre-dating proto-greek speakers in the region (~4000 yr BP), IDK. Remove "some scholars", remove "the name", and remove "herself" (she is not/was not a physical object), and change "pre-Greek" to whatever that was intended to mean in terms of people or dates.Abitslow (talk) 19:41, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

"[P]re-Greek" in this context is a commonplace for pre-Indo-European, "the name" seems to refer to linguistic analysis and "herself" obviously is a short form for "everything related to her". "Some scholars believe" is indeed *not* misleading, provided the relevance of the cited source, and that is -- especially in this field -- not so much a matter of age. I see no need for an edit, except for the bad reference number two (see below). 91.6.136.22 (talk) 00:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

The choice of phrasing in "the goddess herself" is quite jarring... 192.159.160.213 (talk) 02:37, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

Bad reference

Could someone please remove reference number two, as it has (as found on archive.org[1]) completely nothing to do with the topic of this article? 91.6.136.22 (talk) 23:55, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2015

I want to edit where how Delos allowed Leto to give birth on her. From what I read in books, Delos allowed because she was neither connected to the mainland nor an island, but a rock drifting in the sea, so Leto was able to give birth. later on, Leto (or Apollo) granted Delos's wish of becoming an island (because she was tired of drifting) in thanks for her help in giving birth to the twins. thank you Kanamiranda (talk) 13:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

 Not done This is not the right page to request additional user rights.
If you want to suggest a change, please request this in the form "Please replace XXX with YYY" or "Please add ZZZ between PPP and QQQ".
Please also cite reliable sources to back up your request. - Arjayay (talk) 13:48, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 October 2015

Today , Artemis is worshiped by many neo-pagans around the world , worshiping her just like in Ancient Greek times but with a modern twist , and celebrating her festivals. 94.8.61.233 (talk) 21:09, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

 Not done as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to any article. Also, you have not indicated where this information should be placed in the article. Inomyabcs (talk) 11:53, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Artemis/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Some reference to her history before the Indo-European conquest of Greece is probably called for. See Karl Kerényi's books for some details. Badbilltucker 20:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 20:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 08:19, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Frequent spelling mistakes

Possibly made by non-native English speaker.. i.e. quoted: "inner" - probably should be 'in her'. Also, "worshiped" and "worshipped" are used. Please allow access to permit minor edits such as these. Eó (talk) 22:57, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Demeter as mother of Artemis

As the article currently stands, it says in the first paragraph:

"The Arcadians believed she was the daughter of Demeter.[6]"

In the second paragraph:

"In the classical period of Greek mythology, Artemis was often described as the daughter of Zeus and Leto, and the twin sister of Apollo."

But in the Birth section, it opens by saying:

"Various conflicting accounts are given in Classical Greek mythology of the birth of Artemis and her twin brother, Apollo. All accounts agree, however, that she was the daughter of Zeus and Leto and that she was the twin sister of Apollo." -Pigkeeper (talk) 09:29, 14 September 2017

Now what is the problem? Artemis was a goddess as well as Apollo was a god. That here is mythology and not a course of logic. Artemis was worshipped all over the mediterranean world under different identities. Religion or mythology is crazy. -Tri-l (talk) 21:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Questions and comments II

This is not one of the best articles I have read on Wikipedia. It could be improved. I improved article and talk pages. The talk section is rather messy and not completely in chronological order. Here's a second set of comments and questions.

1. "In ancient Cretan history Leto was worshipped at Phaistos and in Cretan mythology, Leto gave birth to Apollo and Artemis on the islands known today as Paximadia."

What is the source for the above?

2. "The Iliad reduced the figure of the dread goddess to that of a girl, who, having been thrashed by Hera, climbs weeping into the lap of Zeus".

The text seems to imply Artemis had dreadlocks. If dread is what it suggests, I think it would be proper to rewrite the sentence in a more explicit manner.

3. The last three paragraphs in the "Intimacy" section should be rewritten in the past tense.

4a. The "Atalanta, Oeneus and the Meleagrids" section has this sentence: "This is in some stories". Aside from the fact the sentence is really a fragment because it's not in the SVO form, it really doesn't convey a proper encyclopedic style.

4b. The last sentence in the "Atalanta, Oeneus and the Meleagrids" section should be rewritten.

5. The last sentence of the "Epithets" section ends with "hanged goddess". What is that supposed to mean? It's unclear.

6. The "Festivals" section says "A festival for Artemis Diktynna (of the net) was held in Hypsous". It's not clear what's the meaning of "of the net".

7. The "Bow and arrow" subsection says "The arrows of Artemis could also bring sudden death and disease to girls and women". Did this only apply to females in the sense that Artemis could have used one of her arrows to target a man with no avail?

8. The "Buzzard hawk" subsection starts with "Hawks". Should it start with "Buzzard hawks" instead?

9. The "Flora" subsection says "Palm and Cypress were issued to be her birthplace. Other plants sacred to Artemis are Amaranth and Asphodel."

The first sentence is not clear as already indicated by the tag. Both sentences use capital letters which I don not consider necessary, except for "Palm" which is at the beginning of the first sentence.

ICE77 (talk) 06:30, 24 September 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 April 2018

Pregnant women used to pray to Artemis to relieve their pain. Today, midwives use the herb Artemisia, named after the goddess, to relieve the pain during childbirth and pregnancy.

Modern day depictions of Artemis include characters within film and media, such as Katniss Everdeen in the Hunger Games, who wields a bow and arrow and presents a lot of the personality traits often associated with the ancient Greek goddess. Pagans and Wiccans continue to worship Artemis today, and her presence is still seen within many modern day, unorthodox religions. Francescawilkin (talk) 03:04, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. - FlightTime (open channel) 03:07, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2018

187.206.43.59 (talk) 20:53, 6 July 2018 (UTC)==Not-Greek or Roman Myths== 

In Ukrainian Mythology She have another enemy named Mavka who is an female sprit.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 06:10, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 October 2018

please alter: her cult image depicted the "Lady of Ephesus" adorned with multiple pendulous, breast-like protuberances on her torso, variously interpreted as multiple accessory breasts(polumastos),[70] as eggs, grapes, acorns,[71] or even bull testes.[72][73]

to her cult image depicted the "Lady of Ephesus" adorned with multiple pendulous, breast-like protuberances on her torso, variously interpreted as multiple accessory breasts(polumastos),[70] as eggs, grapes, acorns,[71] ,bull testes[72][73] or fruits of the tree-of-life [ref1] [ref2]

The Visual Imagery, Artemis & Life, Volume 1 in the Series Life, Death and Artemis, 2018, ISBN 9781370749201, (ebook) https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/785040 124.191.44.0 (talk) 04:48, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

References

 Not done. A self-published ebook is not a reliable source. Fish+Karate 13:16, 19 November 2018 (UTC)

Lead image

I've been working on improving the page for Diana (mythology) and noticed that both that article and this one use photos of the exact same statue in the lead info box. Seeing how carefully the editors here so far have separated and distinguished the two articles and done a fairly good job of providing just short summaries with crosslinks when discussing shared information, it seems odd that they'd still be using the same primary image. I'm not necessarily suggesting that this article should use a pre-Roman image of Artemis (though that might be ideal), but maybe one or both should have a different image at the top of the article. Thoughts? Dinoguy2 (talk) 20:24, 20 November 2018 (UTC)

Trying to clearly distinguish between "Artemis" and "Diana" is virtually impossible, since, after around 50 BC, they are basically indistinguishable from each other and the name Diana is normally just used as a Latin translation of Artemis. After that point, they are basically just two names for the same goddess. Frankly, I do not see any good reason why we have two separate articles at all, but they have both existed for so long separately that it would be a clear case of WP:SNOWBALL trying to merge them.

As for the statue, the statue that is used as the main image in both articles is a Roman copy of an earlier Greek original, which is not unusual, since most major classical Greek sculptures only survive in later Roman copies. Most other articles about major Greek deities have Roman copies of Greek sculptures as main images also. I do not believe we have any images of Roman representations of Diana from before she was syncretized with Artemis. If you really want to distinguish between "Artemis" and "Diana," my suggestion would be to keep the same image for this article and replace the image for the "Diana (mythology)" article with a post-Roman western European representation. There are plenty of post-classical western European paintings of classical deities that use Roman names in their titles. --Katolophyromai (talk) 01:07, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

That's a good idea, thanks. I'll bring it up over there. As for merging, it does seem like the two topics are basically synonyms with slightly variant origin points at best (and even Artemis has variant origins delt with in this article, i.e. Ephesian Artemis). There is also minimal overlap between the two articles as it stands (Artemis covers mainly mythology, Diana has almost nothing about mythology; Diana covers mostly forms of worship and sacred sites, Artemis has barely any of this). Both articles would probably be improved by a merger, but I suspect a lot of people would bristle at that idea... Dinoguy2 (talk) 12:31, 21 November 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2019

In first paragraph, "worship" should be "worshipped". 69.112.127.21 (talk) 15:04, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Done. Paul August ☎ 16:23, 7 January 2019 (UTC)

Merge with Diana (mythology)? - request for comment

Working on the section at Diana (mythology) about late antique philosophy, has re-ignited my frustration at the fact that the vast majority of sources, both ancient and modern, use Diana and Artemis, if not interchangeable, then to refer to the same goddess. for example, many sources dealing with Proclus variously translate Artemis as Diana (because roman names were, for a long time, the de-facto translations used for classical deities in English language literature and culture). Should these whole sections be repeated on both pages? It would be silly to split a topic between two pages just because different sources use different names to refer to the same topic. The only other option I can see is a merge. User Katolophyromai mentioned this idea last year (see "Lead image" discussion above). This option seems drastic to I wanted to open it up for comment to feel out people's opinions. Off the top of my head, the result would be basically to retain the mythology section and the (pretty brief) worship section from Artemis. Diana currently has more material on history, attributes, etc. The only difference would be the addition of another origin point (in addition to the current section "As the Lady of Ephesus"), basically all the info from Diana pre-"Conflation with Artemis" (another relatively short section). Dinoguy2 (talk) 17:53, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Typo

Under "worship" in the second or third line there is "worship" where it should be "worshiped".

Me

can I be a huntress. I will respect thou throughout my whole life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Loveisweak (talk • contribs) 18:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

A "Modern" representation of the goddess

Artemis plays a role in the modern Rogue-like computer game Hades. Her character is voiced by Jamie Landrum (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9459718/fullcredits). Her representation captures her sensual yet aloof nature as huntress who may not be snared by the central character, Zagreus.

[I have a screen shot of her that would, I think, add interest, but the rights are with the publisher, Supergiant Games, who might be glad of this exposure.] Anan Isapta (talk) 14:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. IMDB is not considered reliable. Screenshots are only allowed for identification purposes if absolutely necessary, which is not here. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 16:08, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 November 2020

This epithet means "willow-bound" from the Gr. lygos (λυγός, willow) and desmos (δεσμός, bond). change "willow-bound" to "wicker-bound" change (λυγός, willow) to (λυγός, Chaste Tree, Vitex agnus-castus) Matthew Sleigh (talk) 18:47, 13 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: @Matthew Sleigh: I'm confused. Your sources support that willow should be changes to chaste tree. But why would this mean that "willow bound" should be changed to "wicker bound"?
SSSB (talk) 10:37, 18 December 2020 (UTC)

Willow specifically refers to the genera Salix, which is in a different plant family (Salicaceae) from Vitex (Lamiaceae). Wicker is nonspecific, and can include Vitex, which willow does not. (The name Vitex is a reference to the use of Vitex agnus-castus in basketry.) Matthew Sleigh (talk) 17:47, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

@Matthew Sleigh: It appears to me that you're combining information from multiple sources to reach a conclusion not really supported by any source. That's considered synthesis, a form of original research, which is not permitted on Wikipedia. We have a published source that explicitly defines this as "willow-bound". In addition, Wikipedia cannot be used as a source for itself (see WP:CIRC). If that information is incorrect, that needs to be published in a reliable source first, at which point Wikipedia could report that information. If I'm misunderstanding what you're saying (entirely possible), please feel free to reopen the request. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 18:14, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2021 (Orion and Artemis)

ScorpioSpaghetti (talk) 02:50, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Artemis did not fall for Orion. This is false in most myths. Artemis stuck to her maidenhood and never fell for Orion, however, he did try to seduce her which is why he was killed.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. 54nd60x (talk) 05:37, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2021

she kills people who see her naked. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.199.101.2 (talk) 16:27, 15 November 2021 (UTC)