Talk:Aram Khachaturian/Archive 1

Archive 1

Status?

The article states by implication that Khachaturian was one of the major composers of the century, along with Shostakovich and Prokofiev. Is that really valid? I would guess that most authorities would place Khachaturian as at best a second-ranker in world terms, well below the other two. Jon Rob 15:21, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Khachaturian was included in the book of music literature for pupils of music schools of the Soviet Union alongside with SHostakovich and Prokofiev. It is really really valid indeed and it is not based on your opinion Jon Rob. Khachaturian with his talent stands even above the other two. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.197.242.156 (talk • contribs) . Expletive and last sentence removed under WP:NPA

Perhaps today he is not seen as a first-class composer, but in Soviet Russia his standing was more-or-less equal to that of DSCH and Prokofiev, and i think that at least should be reflected in the article. --Alex16zx 13:59, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

• Some of the IP comments were removed per WP:Talk This space is for discussing improvements to the Aram Khachaturian article and not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. VartanM (talk) 05:00, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

children

This article makes no mention of his children. I met his great grandson in Boston last fall.--24.218.8.95 (talk) 02:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Exaggerations

The article states that he didn't know a word of Russian when he arrived to Moscow aged 18. Being a Tbilisian myself I can tell that it just couldn't be true. It's like saying that the person who was born and raised in Dublin doesnt know a word in English.81.152.251.223 (talk) 18:56, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Where you born in 1903? If not, I will put forth that Tbilisi from 1903 until 1921 when he came to Moscow was likely much different as far as having a lot of Russian speakers than current Tbilisi. --RossF18 (talk) 19:04, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

And Dublin in 1903 and Tbilisi in 1903 are in very much different places as far as openess to different cultures, location, and preponderance of English versus Russian speakers. A more apt comparison would be Los Angeles in 1803 and Los Angeles now as far as English speakers. That said, the statement should be sourced. --RossF18 (talk) 19:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The claim that Khachaturian spoke no Russian when he first came to Moscow is not supported by Victor Yuzefovich's biography, written with Khachaturian's cooperation: p.18 it states 'Aram knew enough Russian not be confused [during debates and discussions about art in the house of his brother, Suren] by similar-sounding words that had entirely different meanings in Armenian.' I have therefore deleted the claim he knew no Russian given this, and the fact no one has managed to substantiate the claim. Alfietucker (talk) 11:36, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

How Armenian was Khachaturian?

While it is clear that Khachaturian was from an Armenian family, he was born in Tblisi (Georgia) in 1903 and moved to Moscow in 1921. He never visited Armenia until 1939. He received no formal music training before coming to Moscow. He is clearly a genius of his own, and a master of the Russian symphonic tradition. A few quotes from Stanley D. Krebs, Soviet Composers and the Development of Soviet Music (George Allen and Unwin, London, 1970): "Khachaturian is, musically, a Russian composer. [..] He epitomizes, in solid Russian style, the republican composer of ultimate, and imaginary, greater Soviet maturity. [..] But the essence of his importance is that all these [musical influences], including the Armenian, are handled in the same manner: in the St. Petersburg tradition. [..] Soviet ideological demands fettered Khachaturian as an 'Armenian' composer in the mid-thirties. [..] The piano concerto remains one of his best works. One wishes to lay to rest the dogmatic nonsense of this being an 'Armenian' concerto, or a concerto of any other nationality." Krebs points out that Soviet propaganda, wishing to include all nationalities in the Union, deliberately branded Khachaturian as an Armenian composer, commissioning in 1939 a ballet for the Moscow Ten-day Festival of Armenian Music. "This began his tenure as an Armenian composer and also began the long story of his ubiquitous ballet, Gaiane." I think Khachaturian's own statements about his Armenian roots must be seen in the light of his condemnation as a formalist by the Communist Party. It was necessary to emphasize his ethnic origins in that context, but do we have to keep the myth alive? Put differently, how Armenian is the Waltz from Masquerade or the Adagio from Spartacus? Zwart (talk) 20:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

do we have to keep the myth alive -- so long as most sources say so, yes. Since you've done some research, a small bit consolidating the above in an appropriate section, with full sourcing, may be ok. As for how Armenian he is, well he certainly DID use a lot of Armenian folk music styles and probably actual folk music (I forget right this second) in his music -- his waltzes may not be Armenian, but the Lezginkas sure are, and even music of very similar style to the Saber Dance shows up in other Armenian symphonic-style pieces I've heard. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 21:56, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for reacting. This is a very touchy issue, so I'll wait for some more reactions. The Lezghinka is a Georgian dance, according to my sources (actually, from the Lezgian people Zwart (talk) 22:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)). Gaiane probably has more Armenian elements, because it is set in Armenia, or grew out of an earlier ballet set in Armenia. But that doesn't make him an 'Armenian' composer, any more than Dvorak is an American composer etc. Zwart (talk) 14:13, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If you're using his place of birth and his extensive travel before setting foot in Armenia as the thing that makes him not Armenian, that's hardly a valid reason. His entire family is Armenian and his heritage is Armenian and place of birth, unless you belong to the majority group, hardly makes you that ethnicity. Remember, it is important to not judge the place of birth by American or Western European standards. In US, many people strive to be an American, so whatever ethnicity your family is, when you're born in US, you become a US citizen, and you can actually be an American unless you really try not to be. In Eastern Europe and Middle East, place of birth has little bearing on your ethnicity and who you are. If you come from an Armenian family, are of Armenian dissent, you can be born on the Moon for all they care, you're still an Armenian. And living in a country that belonged to Soviet Union or travel or living in Russia, doesn't make a person Russian. While is is gradually changing, at the time of his birth, just because he was born somewhere else, he was most definitely an Armenian.--RossF18 (talk) 17:47, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not questioning his being from an Armenian family (although they settled in Georgia as early as 1870), and people are free to value ethnicity as highly as they like. The question is, does that make his music Armenian or deeply influenced by Armenian folk music, as one reads so often. For that one would have to see a consistent appearance of Armenian elements in his music, and that hasn't been demonstrated, as far as I know. So I'm questioning the validity of the ethnic label in this particular domain. Zwart (talk) 22:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If you have sources that specifically note that his music is not Armenian or influenced by Armenian music, please feel free to add that information with the sources. Perhaps create a section titled Controversy about Khachaturian's Musical Inspiration or just create a subsection in the general music section highlighting how your sources say that his music really is not influenced by Armenian folk music. Depending on the sources, that would be a valuable contribution to the article. However, even if his music is not influenced by Armenian folk music, that doesn't make him any less Armenian. There are plenty of composers born in various nations who are influenced by foreign music and their compositions change as a result. Those changes, even it's the majority of their composed pieces, doesn't make them the ethnicity of that country whose music style they were influenced by. I don't think saying that Khachaturian was an Armenian composer has to mean that his music always has Armenian melodies as a base or undertones. He is Armenian because of his heritage, not because of the kind of music he composed-it's in his blood, so to speak. Musically, he can be a Russian composer or Chinese. Just like an American composer can be African or German musically, even if he is a white Southerner with roots from Italy. That composer would still be American. Same with Khachaturian: being influenced by Russian music, even if entirely, doesn't change the fact that he's Armenian and that makes him an Armenian composer. No composer is called a ethnic or national of any nation that merely influences his music.--RossF18 (talk) 22:41, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

On another point that's closer to what you were saying, NO - just because he is Armenian, that doesn't necessarily make his music Armenian. So, you're right to question the validity of the ehtnic label of his music, but not the ethnic label of him. So, again, if your sources say that his music is not Armenian, feel free to add that into the article. But, to belabor the point, not composing Armenian music doesn't make him any less of an Armenian composer. It's not the kind of music he composes, but his ethnicity. Some of the greatest composers from a nation may compose in the style that's entirely foreign to that country.--RossF18 (talk) 22:47, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

And to reiterate, you NEED to state some sources, it really doesn't matter what you as an unpublished random person think, as far as what you're allowed to put into WP. Nor is this really the place to get into the issue beyond how it relates to what will be in the article. Personally, I listen to his music and a lot of it has that certain something that sets it quite apart from most Russian music. But that's just me as a music lover. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 23:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's calm down. There is really no reason for all caps to hammer fellow editors (my NO was to voice agreement). Sources would be nice, especially for what seems like controversial points, but this article is without any sources to begin with, so if we begin demanding sources blindly, this entire article will be just his birth and death dates. Speaking of getting into the issue beyond how it relates to what will be in the article, how is discussing your listening to his music and being a music lover different. And I don't think the discussion will progress on the right foot when we start saying things like "it really doesn't matter what you as an unpublished random person think" and then in the next sentence start giving our own unpublished random opinion as to how "his music . . . has that certain something that sets it quite apart from most Russian music." Let's keep it corgial.--RossF18 (talk) 03:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well the point is, that since most sources (even if they aren't noted here) say that he's an Armenian composer, and his music has a lot of Armenian influence, then anything that goes against this needs to be properly sourced much more than most of what's on the page. My point was, one random person bringing up objections against decades of published info stating otherwise isn't going to have any weight. My other comment at the end was merly to point out that I for one DO hear his music as not the same as other Russians...I'm sorry you didn't get the implications of that statement. But maybe I'm just a dumn yutz and all my opinions are worth nothing (like the guy at talk:The Nutcracker seems to think) ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ (talk) 03:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

If I misconstrued, I appologize. Trying to keep the peace, that's all. I agree with you however. --RossF18 (talk) 04:51, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for all this input. I think we agree on the added need for sources if contentious points are made in a WP article. And to reiterate, my question was not about ethnicity but about culture (which is not ethnically constrained). Incidentally, if you look at the Armenian K. site (under 'biography'), you see that K's cultural identity is very carefully circumscribed. Zwart (talk) 13:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

What part of the following quote from the website you reference leaves any ambiguity of Khachaturian having Armenian culture? "Aram Khachaturian is a great Armenian composer, an outstanding representative of 20th century’s music, one of the most original contemporary composers. His works are part of the world music’s “gold portfolio”." Serouj (talk) 23:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Khatchaturian's being born in Tbilisi should be taken in its historical context of the Armenian Diaspora. Tbilisi was the cultural center of Eastern Armenian culture from the 18th to early twentieth centuries. Serouj (talk) 22:47, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Culture and ethnicity do not trump political geography. Khachaturian's passport did not describe him as 'Armenian', therefore neither should we. Pfistermeister (talk) 22:53, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

He is Armenian first. He just happened to be born in Georgia. (Tbilisi, as I mentioned before, was the cultural center of the Eastern Armenian culture. On the other hand, Constantinople was the cultural center of Western Armenians. That doesn't make Krikor Zohrab TURKISH just because he was born in Constantinople! Similarly, Khatchaturian's being born in Tblisia does NOT make him Georgian!) Serouj (talk) 23:08, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Lastly, it is WIDELY accepted that Khachaturian is Armenian, so let's not argue about minor technical points that he was born in Georgia and therefore is Georgian! That is plain ridiculous. Armenians had their cultural CENTER in Tiflis; that doesn't make them Georgians!! Serouj (talk) 23:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Kindly produce his passport. I will abide by what it says. Pfistermeister (talk) 23:15, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, technically when he was born in 1903, Tiflis was a part of the Russian Empire. After the creation of the Armenian state, many Tbilisi Armenians moved to Armenia. Serouj (talk) 23:24, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Proposal of a compromise

Do we really need to emphasize him being "Soviet-Georgian" composer? There is nothing Georgian in his life and work except for the birthplace, which was of quite little importance for every Soviet artist. Would the following be a compromising description of him:

".... was a Soviet composer, born in the family of Armenian descent in Tiflis (now Tbilisi, Georgia), whose works were often influenced by Armenian folk music."

Regards, Alaudo (talk) 23:16, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

@Alaudo: in that case, e.g. instead of calling a "German" any prominent German, who happened to be born and create what he's famous for during the Nazi regime, we would call "Nazi", That would be rather insulting, wouldn't it? Then why should an Armenian composer be called "Soviet" composer, just because he composed during soviet occupation? I would remove the "Soviet" part completely and leave only "Armenian". koz that's what Khachaturyan is. He is born Armenian, his both parents are Armenian, and his music is with Armenian folk music touch.92.229.178.52 (talk) 10:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)Lilit92.229.178.52 (talk) 10:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for mediating Alaudo. I think it should be emphasized that he is "Soviet-Armenian" and that he was born in Tiflis, Georgia, as such:

"Aram Khachaturian (Armenian: Արամ Խաչատրյան, Aram Xačaturyan; Russian: Арам Ильич Хачатурян, Aram Il'ič Hačaturjan) (born in Tiflis, Georgia) June 6, 1903 – May 1, 1978) was a Soviet-Armenian composer whose works were often influenced by Armenian folk music."

It is unmistakable that he is Armenian, a completely irrefutable point. There is not much more to emphasize in the first sentence that he was born in Tiflis. There is no other Georgian attribute to him. Serouj (talk) 23:20, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Difficult! What would "Soviet-Armenian" bring compared to just "Soviet"? My proposal would probably end the edit war in this particular article and would do no harm to the concerned person or the quality of the article in general, for it describes his life and works from rather neutral point of view. In the big multi-national world people tend to identify you by your birthplace (or, if that's different, by your citizenship) and not by your etnicity and there are thousands of examples of such articles in English Wikipedia (look for example at Zamenhof, the complete explanation of his etnicity is taken off from the opening of the article!). So, why not to do the same with this article to keep its NPOV? Alaudo (talk) 23:35, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

In this situation, Khachaturian was an Armenian who was born in Tiflis, which at the time was the Russian Empire. This neither makes him Russian nor Georgian. We can cite that he is Soviet-Armenian and born in Tiflis. That is as Non-POV as it gets. Serouj (talk) 00:10, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

For my part, I am most fascinated at having now been threatened by a user: told that I will be 'blocked' because I refuse to kow-tow to his ethnic-nationalist fantasies. The fact remains that calling Khatchaturian 'Armenian' obscures the politico-geographical facts in the interests of an ethnic-nationalist agenda *to which neither I nor wikipedia should bend the knee*. Pfistermeister (talk) 23:29, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Dear Pfistermeister, before your edits, it had already been established that Khachaturian is Armenian (read the above section). If you are going against what is widely accepted to be true, then you must prove your point before making such a bold edit and statement that Khachaturian is Georgian! Serouj (talk) 23:30, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Not content with threatening me on my talk page, you now high-handedly delete the reference I provided! You are a [unacceptable personal attack redacted. Stephan Schulz (talk)]. You bring wikipedia into disrepute. Pfistermeister (talk) 23:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I find it strange discussion. This would be quite an off-topic, but can the fact that George Harrison was influenced by music of India cause a though that he is in fact an Indian musician? Abba's songs were all in English and they contain no elements of Swedish national folklore or so, but they are still considered an Swedish band! Don't forget that family plays a big role in development of a child. He for sure had listened to Armenian music when he was a child, he spoke Armenian - and there's no doubt - he was not a Russian composer. Khachaturian was Armenian by his ethnicity and can be called a Soviet composer, but no Russian or GeorgianForeverChild (talk) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.161.213.55 (talk) 17:01, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

"Georgia" in intro

At the time, Tiflis (as it was called then) was a part of the Russian Empire. It was not considered Georgia at the time. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to say "Tiflis, Georgia" as Tiflis was part of the Tbilisi Governorate and not an independent state known as Georgia! Sorry, but this is the historical record at the time, and we follow it. Later on in the article, we can mention that Tbilisi is now in Georgia, but that is too minor of a point to make it into the introductory sentence of this person's article! Serouj (talk) 01:08, 12 July 2009 (UTC)