Talk:Arain/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Comments on the origins of the Bhuttos

It beggars belief that there are still those who persist with the entirely false claim that the Bhuttos are Arains (and at the very least, when this is such a point of contention, trying to pass off such fanciful claims as fact, is highly problematic); the following is being re-quoted from a previous discussion dealing with this issue:

“...Benazir Bhutto herself, categorically stated in her autobiography that she is descended from Rajputs, and her biographer and close friend, Shyam Bhatia went on record to state that Benazir took pride in her Rajput ancestry. Here, I’ll even reproduce the exact quote:

"But Pinky always took pride in her Rajput ancestry and said it was only during war that India and Pakistan hated each other. But in peace, they liked each other."

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3061556,prtpage-1.cms

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc."

http://ppiusindh.org/hyderabad-sindh-district-of-sindh-pakistan.html

"Bhutto: Perhaps the most famous of the Sindh Rajputs, they are a clan of the Bhatti Rajputs, and as such are Chandravanshi. They are found in Larkana District, in a cluster of villages such as Mirpur Bhutto and Salar Bhutto north of Larkana city."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajputs

Refer also to the following article:

“The Bhutto clan is rajput, a word of Hindu origin, a hereditary warrior caste which dominates both Indian and Pakistani armies to this day.”

http://blai.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/30/1193585-shah-nawaz-the-legacy-of-the-bhuttos?groupId=84

www.globalsecurity.org also carries an article on the Bhutto tribe. The following extract, is taken from this article:

“The Bhutto family traces its migration from Jaiselmere in India to Sindh to Setho Khan Bhutto in the fifteenth century AD. The Bhutto family migrated to Sindh during the reign of Mughuls when Kalhoras were ruling in Sindh under the suzerainty of Mughul Emperors. They settled and established themselves in Taluka Ratodero, District Larkana and owned vast tracts of fertile land in the District of Larkana, Jacobabad and Shikarpur. Where rice, cotton and sugarcane was produced in plant. By some accounts the Bhutto family was the biggest and wealthiest landlord in Sindh and their style of living and conducting themselves was totally different from rest of their class in Sindh; they could face any situation any adversary and dignity, and unlike many other landlords they finally believed in pomp, pageantry, dignity and authority.”

“These Rajput converts probably became Muslims in the 18th century. Doda Khan Bhutto headed of the family during the Talpur Dynasty, and then during Charles Napier's rule of Sindh. Doda Khan Bhutto worked to acquire large tracts of land, and was responsible for the vast land ownership of the Bhutto family. By one account Doda Khan Bhutto was described by the British as "the best and most enterprising zamindar in the whole of sindh".

Finally, the renowned historian, Stanley Wolpert, also underlined the Rajput origins of the Bhutto tribe, in his biography of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, namely, Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan:

“Zulfi’s paternal ancestors had before his clan’s long trek been Hindu Rajputs...”

http://books.google.com/books?ei=EjQZTIPUMY_64AaJtJ3-Cw&ct=result&id=C-ltAAAAMAAJ&dq=zulfi+bhutto+of+pakistan&q=rajputs#search_anchor

“... and many Rajput warriors, like Zulfi’s progenitor, Sheto converted to Islam...”

http://books.google.com/books?ei=EjQZTIPUMY_64AaJtJ3-Cw&ct=result&id=C-ltAAAAMAAJ&dq=zulfi+bhutto+of+pakistan&q=rajput#search_ancho

Thus please stop regurgitating the same myths and half-truths that are continuously being peddled, and make a mockery of what is supposed to be an encyclopaedic entry. Gill Jat (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Even the Encyclopædia Britannica, opens its entry on Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, with the words:

"Born into a noble Rājpūt family that had accepted Islām, Bhutto was the son of a prominent political figure in the Indian colonial government."

See: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/64265/Zulfikar-Ali-Bhutto Gill Jat (talk) 01:24, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

CAPITAL LETTERS

Can whoever it is who is posting in CAPITALS all the time, stop. It is annoying and frustrating for all other readers, and makes them less likely to care about your message. S.G.^(GH) _ping! 19:33, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

DISCONTINUE FROM PERSISTENTLY PROMOTING THE FALLACY THAT BHUTTOS ARE ARAINS

Why donot you listen Benazir words about her forefathers she clearly says her family came with Muhammad bin Qasim in 712 AD in video 'Daughter of Power' on youtube.In Video she doesnot say she is rajpoot. AS everyone knows there was no rajpoot who came with Muhammad Bin Qasim. After listening above mention video stop quoating bookish knowledge that Bhutto family is rajpoot.

It beggars belief that there are still those who persist with the entirely false claim that the Bhuttos are Arains (and at the very least, when this is such a point of contention, trying to pass off such fanciful claims as fact, is highly problematic); the following is being re-quoted from a previous discussion dealing with this issue:

“...Benazir Bhutto herself, categorically stated in her autobiography that she is descended from Rajputs, and her biographer and close friend, Shyam Bhatia went on record to state that Benazir took pride in her Rajput ancestry. Here, I’ll even reproduce the exact quote:

"But Pinky always took pride in her Rajput ancestry and said it was only during war that India and Pakistan hated each other. But in peace, they liked each other."

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3061556,prtpage-1.cms

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: tBold texthe

Heading text

Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc."

http://ppiusindh.org/hyderabad-sindh-district-of-sindh-pakistan.html

"Bhutto: Perhaps the most famous of the Sindh Rajputs, they are a clan of the Bhatti Rajputs, and as such are Chandravanshi. They are found in Larkana District, in a cluster of villages such as Mirpur Bhutto and Salar Bhutto north of Larkana city."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajputs

Refer also to the following article:

“The Bhutto clan is rajput, a word of Hindu origin, a hereditary warrior caste which dominates both Indian and Pakistani armies to this day.”

http://blai.newsvine.com/_news/2007/12/30/1193585-shah-nawaz-the-legacy-of-the-bhuttos?groupId=84

www.globalsecurity.org also carries an article on the Bhutto tribe. The following extract, is taken from this article:

“The Bhutto family traces its migration from Jaiselmere in India to Sindh to Setho Khan Bhutto in the fifteenth century AD. The Bhutto family migrated to Sindh during the reign of Mughuls when Kalhoras were ruling in Sindh under the suzerainty of Mughul Emperors. They settled and established themselves in Taluka Ratodero, District Larkana and owned vast tracts of fertile land in the District of Larkana, Jacobabad and Shikarpur. Where rice, cotton and sugarcane was producedBig text in plant. By some accounts the Bhutto family was the biggest and wealthiest landlord in Sindh and their style of living and conducting themselves was totally different from rest of their class in Sindh; they could face any situation any adversary and dignity, and unlike many other landlords they finally believed in pomp, pageantry, dignity and authority.”

“These Rajput converts probably became Muslims in the 18th century. Doda Khan Bhutto headed of the family during the Talpur Dynasty, and then during Charles Napier's rule of Sindh. Doda Khan Bhutto worked to acquire large tracts of land, and was responsible for the vast land ownership of the Bhutto family. By one account Doda Khan Bhutto was described by the British as "the best and most enterprising zamindar in the whole of sindh".

Even the Encyclopædia Britannica, opens its entry on Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, with the words:

"Born into a noble Rājpūt family that had accepted Islām, Bhutto was the son of a prominent political figure in the Indian colonial government."

See: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/64265/Zulfikar-Ali-Bhutto —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gill Jat (talk • contribs) 00:51, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Finally, the renowned historian, Stanley Wolpert, also underlined the Rajput origins of the Bhutto tribe, in his biography of Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto, namely, Zulfi Bhutto of Pakistan:

“Zulfi’s paternal ancestors had before his clan’s long trek been Hindu Rajputs...”

http://books.google.com/books?ei=EjQZTIPUMY_64AaJtJ3-Cw&ct=result&id=C-ltAAAAMAAJ&dq=zulfi+bhutto+of+pakistan&q=rajputs#search_anchor

“... and many Rajput warriors, like Zulfi’s progenitor, Sheto converted to Islam...”

http://books.google.com/books?ei=EjQZTIPUMY_64AaJtJ3-Cw&ct=result&id=C-ltAAAAMAAJ&dq=zulfi+bhutto+of+pakistan&q=rajput#search_ancho

Thus please stop regurgitating the same myths and half-truths that are continuously being peddled, and make a mockery of what is supposed to be an encyclopaedic entry. Gill Jat (talk) 21:38, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

Watch 'Daughter of power' video on youtube and Stop saying Bhutto are not Arains

In 'daughter of power' video Benazir Bhutto herself tells that her family belong to Arab who attacked on sind with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 712 AD.Is there any Rajpoot who came with Muhammad bin Qasim.NO Not at all.There are Arain who claim that they came with Muhammad Bin Qasim in 712 AD.The most of Lahores are from Arain Caste and 100 percent of them Claim they came with Muhammad Bin Qasim. Ask Arain family of Baghbanpura there fore fathers were part of Muhammad Bin Qasim army in 712 AD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.132.97.132 (talk) 02:41, 17 July 2010 (UTC)

Re: Daughter of Power

Actually, in her autobiography, Daughter of the East, Benazir claimed that her ancestors were either soldiers who accompanied the Arabs who conquered Sindh in 712 AD, or Rajput converts to Islam – moreover, plenty of credible and scholarly sources have been cited in this discussion, that point to the Rajput origins of the Bhuttos, and plenty more exist that directly quote Benazir, and her father Zulfikar, referring to themselves as Rajputs. As for the documentary, Daughter of Power (which I have watched), exactly how does Benazir claiming Arab ancestry, prove that she is an Arain? There may well be Arains who assert that their ancestors accompanied the forces of Muhammad bin Qasim, but not a single shred of evidence exists to support such claims (and the Arain family of Baghbanpura, hardly constitutes a reliable authority). Above all, if you refer to the article, it is patently clear that during the era of the British Raj, Arains readily admitted to their Hindu origins, further proving that the claim to Arab ancestry is a relatively recent innovation, which gained ground when the social status of this community was enhanced. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.13.187.254 (talk) 01:54, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

RE: Daughter of Power

Why donot you listen Benazir words about her forefathers she clearly says her family came with Muhammad bin Qasim in 712 AD in video 'Daughter of Power' on youtube.In Video she doesnot say OR AS everyone knows therewas no rajpoot who came with Muhammad Bin Qasim.After listening above mention video stop quoating bookish knowledge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.132.97.132 (talk) 03:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

DISCONTINUE FROM PERSISTENTLY PROMOTING THE FALLACY THAT BHUTTOS ARE RAJPOOT

=Why donot you listen Benazir words about her forefathers she clearly says her family came with Muhammad bin Qasim in 712 AD in video 'Daughter of Power' on youtube.In Video she doesnot say she is rajpoot. AS everyone knows there was no rajpoot who came with Muhammad Bin Qasim. After listening above mention video stop quoating bookish knowledge that Bhutto family is rajpoot.

References

All information in this article needs to be referenced to reliable sources. Failure to do so will see the information removed. This is one of our core policies. Failure to do this and the continued insertion of unsourced material will result in a report ot the WP:ANI for outside help from admins. Heiro 01:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

Some other Claims of Arain Ancestry

I belong to arain subcaste Ghoriye. This tribe inhabited original Mozang town (now considered as central Lahore) after one of our ancestors migrated from Sahiwal. Our elders claim to have Afghan Ancestry. And claim that our forefathers came to Sahiwal with one of armies of Shahab-ul-din Ghori. Similarly my maternal Grandfather and People of his subcaste 'Mithay' claims that their forefathers migrated from Afghanistan during reign of Malik Ayaz the governer of this region during Ghaznavi's time. Both of them use Malik in their names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.185.203.116 (talk) 12:20, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 December 2012

First line under Origin where it says "their position in Punjabi society was inferior to the Jats," is basically a very racist and offensive remark for Arain community. The reference #3 given for that is incorrect and that book "History of Pakistan" does not say that anywhere. Please remove this part of the first line "and their position in Punjabi society was inferior to the Jats,". Thanks Farrukh Shakil (talk) 20:42, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

The cited source, written by a respected academic who specialises in matters relating to the Indian subcontinent, says on page 154 that "The highest caste was that of the Jats, who could be Hindus, Muslims or Sikhs. The Arains, who were exclusively Muslims, had a lower status." Consequently, I am refusing your edit request. Please note that Wikipedia is not censored - that you find the statement offensive is of no great significance when the source is reliable. - Sitush (talk) 20:53, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Recent reverts

I have yet again had to revert some IP changes to this article. The source cited is Christophe Jaffrelot, who is a respected political scientist & historian specialising in South Asian affairs. You cannot just change what he says because you feel like it, although it is perfectly ok for you to come up with some alternate source that says something different and can be juxtaposed.

With regard to the list of notables, please read User:Sitush/Common#Castelists. I note that one edit summary claims that there are loads of sources out there - so use them, please. - Sitush (talk) 04:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

So looks like this is going to hinge on how reliable this Jaffrelot is

Firstly he's the editor not author of a translated French-English book, the chapters themselves have various authors and looking at the limited google preview, it's clearly very poorly edited and there are already contradictions.

On pg154 Arain are quoted to be inferior to the Jatt but on pg154 they are apparantley "solid farming middle class" like Jatt??? So the author of this wikipedia edit was either a)was too lazy to read the next page b)has some motivation to establish inferiority of an econimically heterogenous caste like Arain.

In light of this, either a) the inferior to Jatt comment is removed as it's based on a dodgy, poorly edited source b) if we are going with the idea that is a credible source then the fact that Arain are considered middle class farmers also be included - but wait it would then contradict with fact that Arain are considered an "impure caste" - anyone else feel dizzy? Option A is best. If you want to slate Arain I could point the author to some lovely racist colonial literature.

Have a copy of this Jaffrelot book reserved at the library so I can see what the authors used as their references (if any), and also how the origins of Pakistan fitted into 300 pages... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.137.86 (talk) 23:35, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

This is why it is dangerous to form judgements when you have a very limited GBooks view. None of the chapters appear to have a named author in their heading, nor in the TOC. The list of contributors includes various professors etc, but are not assigned particular roles. There is no contradiction between A being socially inferior or whatever to B and still being capable of description as a "solid farming middle class". There is also no contradiction between being considered an impure caste and "middle-class". Your attack on me is unjustified and, believe me, I've seen plenty of racist colonial literature and dealt with even more caste pov-pushers seeking to glorify their origins etc. I would appreciate an apology at least for your clear inability to research who it was that inserted the bits to which you refer. And until you find some alternate source, the content remains because it is reliably sourced. If you do not like it, well, that is just tough: find the alternate and we'll show both. - Sitush (talk) 23:54, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

Pages 194-195 of this might provide some fruit. - Sitush (talk) 00:02, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Tareekh-e-Arain

When were Tareekh-e-Arain and the other Urdu language genealogical texts mentioned in the article actually first published? I realise that, for example, Chaudry's version is cited as 1989 but I get the impression that this was a reprint and perhaps even a commentary. Who wrote originals, which a cursory look around the web suggests are several generations behind modern times? - Sitush (talk) 10:41, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

Well Tareekh -e- Arainan's first addition was published in 1963. Fifth addition was published in 1989. If you could read Urdu and you are really intrested to know about the origin fo Arain then you should download this book from the web site of an organization "Anjuman -e- Arainan Sindh Pakistan http://www.arain.com.pk/downloads.asp — Preceding unsigned comment added by M.Albert3334 (talk • contribs) 02:54, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. We could amend the citations to include this information. However, althought I am aware of the general nature of Tareekhs, which exist for quite a few comunities, I am not sure that they constitute reliable sources. For starters, they are neither independent of the subject nor peer reviewed. It is also rare to find them cited in academic works.--2.219.218.79 (talk) 06:36, 21 February 2013 (UTC)

BHUTTOS ARE FROM ARAB CONQUEST ORIGIN TOLD BY BENAZIR

here is the documentry in which benazir herself told abt his arab (arain) origin .the name of the dacomentry is 'daughter of power ' . listen wat muterma says her self and stop barking .—Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.120.250.72 (talk • contribs)

• Bhutto is a Sindhi Rajput tribe and is a common fact in Sinh. She has never claimed Arain descent she has such respectable origin. Why would she want to be Arain? No offense!
• Arain DONT HAVE LAST NAMES THAT ARE NOT OF ARABIC ORIGIN

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.199.95.168 (talk) 13:23, 13 June 2013 (UTC) 

Disputed origins

Please see the various notes above, in the light of which the origins of the Arains is disputed. It is more likely that the 'Arain' are in fact termed from 'Arian' or 'Riyaeen' or a similar indigenous Indian term rather than any Arab term/name; however, some of the higher caste Arain families do claim to have intermarried extensively with Arabs, Turks and Afghans, as well as prominent Punjabi Rajput and Jatt families, so they are probably of a more mixed origins. Further, it is worth noting that although the Arains are all Muslims today, this certainly wasnt the case prior to the early Muslim invasions circa 8th c AD. There are early records of Hindu Arains dating to at least 650 AD or even earlier, and their numbers and strong position/name in the Punjab region is also certain, historically. I hope someone objective and responsible will kindly take a more proper look at this article and make necessary amendments. Thanks 39.54.13.232 (talk) 03:58, 13 November 2013 (UTC)Hilda Khan

Sub castes

It has been mentioned that Mian, Mehar and Chaudary are sub-castes. Howeverm at least Mian and Chaudary are title. I know a few subcastes becuase of my relation. One is Gallar/Gallariye (My father side) and another is Bugay (My mother side). I also know there are another sub-caste's like Gallan and Gill. I try to find some references to them before putting it here. f anyone else has any information in this regard then it will be useful to have a subsection on subcastes..

There is also a group called Baghpurra Arain. I am not sure if they are to be considered as subcastes or a seprate group.

Yes I confirm that Gallan and Gill are two different 'gote' of arain family as told by my father Chaudry Rahmat Ali who was arain from Chak No. 257 G.B. Toba Tek Singh. (from Lt. Col (Retd) Javaid Iqbal Zahid). Originally Arains came from Ariha a twon near Jeruslem in Palastine where they were farming but originally settled after Muslim coquest of Syria. A group of approximately 5000 soldiers from Ariha and suuroundings were gathered together to join Mohammad Bin Qasim for expedition to India. Arains settled in Indian Punjab for farming and agriculture. (reference: book "Tarikh-e- Araian" in Urdu) There are a lot of subcasts of arains but they do not like themselves to be called by subcasts.They like themselves to be called as (arain ,saleemi,al raai or hijazi). Using subcast is considered against the unity.But it does not mean that Arains dont have subcasts. In fact there are a lot of subcasts of Arains like BHUTTO, MUDDH, SAPAL, GEHLON, RAMAY ,MOLA ,SHERPAL, DOLAY etc."Tarikh e Arain "(DAUD MUDDH) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 39.32.94.92 (talk) 13:02, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

More notable Arains

Read this latest article in yesterday largest daily the News.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/Todays-News-2-345117-Ayaz-Sadiq-Yet-another-Arain-legislator-wins-from-Lahore

Mian Aamir 13:27, 16 October 2015 (UTC)  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs)  

PROOF OF THAT BHUTTOS ARE ARAINS

whatever he says was wrong.

By Qazi Asif

KARACHI: Despite their differences, Pir Pagaro of the Pakistan Muslim League-Functional (PML-F) has agreed to form an alliance with PML-Quaid President Chaudhry Shujaat Hussain, but only to join ranks against the Pakistan People’s Party (PPP).

Prior to PPP Chairwoman Benazir Bhutto’s return, Pagaro had stood firm on not forming any sort of alliance with Shujaat’s party. However, on Saturday, the 80-year-old politician declared an alliance against the PPP.

Musharraf to decide: “A decision on a grand alliance against the PPP will be taken by President General Pervez Musharraf,” Pagaro told reporters after a meeting with Prime Minister Shaukat Aziz and Shujaat at Kingri House, also attended by Sindh Chief Minister Arbab Ghulam Rahim and Sindh Governor Dr Ishratul Ibad. “(Musharraf) should learn a lesson from the past and select better comrades to contest against the PPP,” he added.

The PML-F said Shujaat was a “rough stone”, which would be “polished into a hero”.

PM Aziz said that Pagaro’s perceptions and predictions about the country’s future remained important. “This meeting with Pir Pagaro was very useful because Chaudhry Shujaat was also present,” the prime minister said. “We will jointly contest the elections.” Shujaat told reporters that even though he was the president of the PML-Q, he was also an “ordinary” worker. “The real leader of the PML is Pir Pagaro.”

“We will give the PPP a tough time in Punjab,” Shujaat said. “We will hold free and fair elections and the PPP will be washed out of the province,” he added.

Pagaro said he did not know who was involved in the October 18 bomb blasts in Bhutto’s rally.

When Aziz, Shujaat, Rahim and Ibad reached Kingri House at 3.30pm on Saturday, Pir Pagaro turned towards reporters and said, “Ab me ek shararat kar raha hoon [I’m about to pull a trick].” He then turned the mouth of a toy cannon on his table towards Chaudhry Shujaat, whereupon Shujaat replied, “Agar ye pyar say hay tau theek hay, aur mujhe khushi hay [if it is with love, then it’s alright and I’m happy about it].” Arbab Rahim then said, “Ab ye People’s Party ki taraf hona chahiyay (now the toy cannon should be pointed towards the PPP).”

Pir Pagaro said, “Zulfikar Ali Bhutto Arain hay, aur wo Punjab say hay (ZA Bhutto was from the Arain caste and that is from Punjab).”

Arbab Rahim replied, “Haan lekin, Chaudhry Jatt hain, or Araiyon se unki banti nahi (yes, but Chaudhry Shujaat is a Jatt and they never get along with Arains). These are the words of great spirtual leader of sindh that surely carries weight whereas ur knowledge is fake.I do not know who r u but i am sure abt u that u r the biggest bulshit out here . i think that ur not a pakistani or muslims . and i think that u hav never visit pakistan . pir pagara is even biggest name in sindh even then the bhuttos in sindh and is forefathers were famous for thier struggle against britishes ,if u hav any any approch or source to contact him .u can verify from them that bhuttos are arain or not , i hav given u the names of famous politicians of bhuttos family who r also relitives of zulafqar ali bhutto , Asadullah Bhutto (ameer of jamiat islami sindh and member of arain association karachi ), Tauqeera Fatima Bhutto sahiba (mna,ppp,nawabshah), Nadeem Iqbal Bhutto (mpa,ppp,karachi ), get the ph no of these persons from web site of provincial assemble of sindh and from national assemble of pak , they will tell u the complete history of bhuttos completely ,now i hav given u proof of that bhuttos are arains i hav verified from above all and from others , i hope that now u will not bark against wrong tree ,

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.199 (talk) 10:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Sir Shah Nawaz Bhutto chaired the All India Arain Convention in early 20th century. Mian Aamir 13:30, 16 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs)

ARAIN IS A MIXED BODY OF VARIOUS LAND_OWNING/AGRICULTURAL CASTES

According to Brahmanical artificial caste system (Manusmriti), a high caste could degrade to lower status when it neglects certain prescribed codes of conducts or else it takes to the occupations of a lower classes/varnas. There are numerous ancient and comparatively recent instances in Hindu society where a Kshatriya tribe as whole became Vaishya or Sudra when it annoyed the priestly class of the Hindu society or else adopted the profession not compatible with its own prescribed status on account of the misfortune days during its existence. Thus, Manusmriti (Hindu Law book X.43-44) says that the Kshatriya tribes of the Sakas, Kambojas, Yavanas, Pahlavas, Paradas etc were originally noble Ksatriyas but became degraded due to trespassing brahmanical social/ritual codes or else due to adoptions of occupation of the Vaishyas/Sudras. That the Kamboj/Jats (Sakas) etc who are numerously attested as Kshatriyas of highest order in Panini’s Ashtadhyayi (4.1.168-75), Mahabharata, Kautiliya’s Arthashastra, Harivamsa and numerous Puranas of the Hindus culture when they combined the profession of Ksatryas with agriculture/cattle culture/trade around the time of king Chandragupta Maurya, they lost their original Ksatriya status and became degraded Ksatriyas, Vaishuyas or Sudras etc. It is remarkable that Hindu text "Harivamsa" attests the Sakas, Kambojas, Yahanas, Pahlavas, Paradas as Kshatriya-Pungava i.e the foremost among the Kshatriyas.

COMMENT: We are informed by numerous ancient Sanskrit texts like Ashtadhyayi of Panini (Ashtadhyayi IV.1.168-175); Manusmriti( X.43-44);, Mahabharata (02.5.18-19; Mahabharata 13.33.20-21. Cf also: Mahabharata 13.35.17-18); Kautiliya’s Arthashastra (11.1.1-4); Harivamsa (Harivamsa, 14.17.); Vayu Purana (88.127-43); Brahmanda Purana (3.41.36) and several other ancient authorites that the ancestors of the modern Kambojs/Kambohs, Jats in ancient times, were established in the Kshatriya-Dharama as a warriors and a rulers (See: Foreign Elements in Ancient Indian Society, 2nd Century BC to 7th Century AD, 1978, p 125, Uma Prasad Thapliyal - India Civilization; See also: Sabha Parava, Udyoga Parva, Bhishma Parva, Drona Parva, Karna Parva, Shalya Parva sections of the Mahabharata). Their rulers have been styled Rajaniyas as well as Kshatriyas in the ancient texts. While the term Rajput is only a recent phenomenon and became popular only after 9th century AD, the Kshatriya designation on the other hand goes deep into remote antiquity and the ancestors of the Kambojs/Kambohs and Jats were undoubtedly included in the privileged Kshatriya list as attested by afore-said ancient references. And notably as A. A. Macdonnel and A. B. Keith have also observed: "the (ancient) term Kshatriya retains a shade of superiority over Rajput" (Vedic Index, II, p 218, Arthur Anthony Macdonell, Arthur Berriedale Keith; Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province‎, Vol III, 1882, p 272, fn 2, H. A. Rose, Denzil Ibbestson, Sir Edward Maclagan).

The process of degradation still continues impartibly. i will add to it that the fact physical features of arains dont match wid locals of subcontinent it is pertinent that arain can be anyone but not the locals of subcontinent

I've tried to search Hindu and Sikh and Parsi Arain but in vain. Only partial reference is made in Joshua project. Overwhelming majority say 99% however remains Muslims. They've no features habits or character relating them to either Dravidians or Aryans. Mian Aamir 13:34, 16 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs)

To the anonymous authors

I have to thank the anonymous authors who keep reverting the articles back to the referenced version despite persistent vandalisms by certain other authors. For the latter, the following applies as much now as it did when it was originally posted:

It seems that the administration has a disregard to the references about so many great Arains who actually contributed a lot to the community and history besides being at plum positions. There were army and navel Chiefs heads of country's top court warriors in history but you don't place them here. Who can deny the roles of Jafar Thanesari and Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi? Without former the reshmi Romal movement in India is incomplete. And the latter was the only Muslim freedom fighter worth the name besides Bakht khan in 1857 war of independence. Actually British banned the entry of Arains in their army due to his rebellions. Wiki has attained the status of an authentic source. Kindly don't let it attain the status of distorting the history. Mian Aamir 13:41, 16 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs)

Sana Nawaz (Lollywood Actress)

I added Sana Nawaz (Lollywood Actress) in famous people category. I have mentioned the published reference for that. In that article, her father’s full name includes the word Arain, which obviously stands for his cast. Her father full name is Malik Mohammad Nawaz Arain. Malik is also a caste but here it is used as title e.g. like Chaudhry. Arain is not used as a title by anyone other than an arain. If anyone has a reference that rejects the referenced article's claim about Sana being an Arain then write the new reference here in the discussion, before removing the entry.

I personally know that she's Arain but the bias works again. Mian Aamir 13:43, 16 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs)

And another thing

[18] Bhutta (Bhutto) clan of the Arains of Jalandhar Tehsil stated that they were descendants of Raja Bhutta, fifth in descent from Raja Karan, and were settled originally in Uch (Refs: North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64; ˜The tribes and castes of the north-western provinces and Oudh in four..., 1999, p 206, William Crooke; North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64, Mythology, Hindu; Jalandhar Settlement Report, p 82, sqq ; Cf: ˜The œtribes and castes of the north-western provinces and Oudh…, 1999 edition, p 206, William Crooke; See also: North Indian Notes and Queries, 1896, p 64, Hindu Mythology; A Glossary of the Tribes & Castes of the Punjab & North-west Frontier Province, 1911, Vol II, p 15, H. A. Rose etc). The Buttas, along with Harrals, Punwars, Laks, as seen above are also the sections of Kharrals (Multan Gazetteer, 1902, p 138)

At one time lahore had three Bhutas one was Arain second Rajput and third jat. All were prominent position holders in lahore in 2008. Mian Aamir 13:45, 16 October 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs)

Arain

This is my request to whole Wikipedia team that please read the actual history of Arains. There are several blogs, Facebook pages where complete history of Arains has been posted. Arain are the descendants of Bu dish and hindu rajputs. Arains never said that they are converted Muslim or connected to Rajputs. One who removes this information must think before doing so. Roberto 879 (talk) 07:49, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 September 2016

Noteable people Javed Chaudhry famous newspaper columnist. Zia Shahid chief editor of Khabrain newspaper. Ikramulhassan (talk) 16:31, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Write the articles first EvergreenFir (talk) 18:44, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 30 May 2017

Arian came from bu-dish religion as their females married with rajputs in sub continent and they become arain of Pakistan. 94.200.27.106 (talk) 10:20, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Also you must provide a reliable source for any edit you wish to make on this article. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 14:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2017

202.61.51.99 (talk) 12:27, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Izno (talk) 13:45, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2017

he origin of the Arain community is uncertain, with some members of the community claiming a connection with the Mir sadiq and Mir jaffer. 202.61.51.99 (talk) 12:31, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Izno (talk) 13:46, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Arain. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20140715223745/http://archives.dailytimes.com.pk/editorial/18-Apr-2006/comment-there-is-many-a-slip-betwixt-cup-and-lip-ishtiaq-ahmed to http://archives.dailytimes.com.pk/editorial/18-Apr-2006/comment-there-is-many-a-slip-betwixt-cup-and-lip-ishtiaq-ahmed

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:27, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Addition categories

Hello, I'm currently expanding on categories for Pakistani names. If possible kindly add Category:Pakistani names and Category:Punjabi-language surnames. Thank you.--PAKHIGHWAY (talk) 23:07, 17 July 2017 (UTC)

Source? Are they Sindhis who migrated to Punjab, for example? We've discussed this on your own talk page but you don't seem to be understanding the potential problem. - Sitush (talk) 05:46, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Gotras Sullah104 (talk) 14:24, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

I would like to add lost gotras/subcasts. What is the process for doing it. This page is locked down. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sullah104 (talk • contribs) 14:26, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Market gardening - Academic reference

"Arains, traditionally agrarians and Agriculture Experts group with a reputation for hard work and entrepreneurship..." (Taken from Knowing Me, Knowing You: Social Networks in the surgical instrument cluster of Sialkot, Pakistan by Khalid Nadvi. See: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:RBP6xJvtF8UJ:www.ids.ac.uk/ids/bookshop/dp/Dp364.pdf+arains+market+gardening&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=uk)

This is biased and rubbish information.Arain are related to agriculture the same way as others.

Relating small time farming and market farming with them is biased. Correct it Saud Chaudhry (talk) 03:32, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

In agreement with saud chaudhry i agree that the market farming association is largely due to the confusion between the types of arian that H.A rose mentions. Namely hissar arain, sutlej arain and ghaggar arain. He points to sutlej arain to only be a true caste while in other provinces the term becomes an occupational appropriation. -flyingsimurgh

Arains in Kpk province

Arains are also living in TANK district of Khyber Pakhtunkhawan ,pakistan ...they also speak pashto language.....and the more important thing is that the NAZIM (SARDAR) of this district is also Arain......

Here is the the proof .....read the PEOPLE part... I refer the author to update the article ... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_District Choudhary Ahmad (talk) 07:21, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Even in Dera Ismail Khan there is significant population of Arains. Atlas Khan is one such popular deraywal as the refer to him. Mian Aamir 12:23, 10 February 2018 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs)

Some non sense has uttered and wrote wrong information about Arains as being small time farmers. Someone has deleted a line saying that there are landlords in arain caste as well. We know people having big agricultural land as well. Yes some own small. It is true to agricultural caste of our region . Change it Saud Chaudhry (talk) 03:36, 17 March 2019 (UTC)

Origins Arab vs Rajput

So it seems to me that while most native historians ascribe an arab origin to the arain, other non-natives tend to side with a rajput theory. The british point to a possible relation with rajput which perhaps is influenced by the fact that jalandhar was one of the first districts with a large amount of arain to come under their control and arain of those districts tend to claim a rajput origin.

However all tend to agree that Arain migrated from the lower indus region -> Multan -> Punjab. In his book called "The Roots" noor arain (although arain himself) gives the explanation that the Arain caste represent those who were present in the army of Muhammad bin Qasim, both arab and non-arab. I personally tend to view this as the most likely of explanations, he gives a ration of 5000 arabs:45000 rajputs. Nonetheless when i edited the page i included both the "arab gotras" and "rajput" gotras, especially as these arab gotras like jatalay were indeed found in sources as old as the jalandhar gazetteer. In the infobox I also included both rajput and arabs to be completely fair and objective. So it seems odd to me that other users would delete any mention of arab origins all together when there are credible sources like thareek-e-arain, the roots as well as early sufi penmanship. The fact that arain have a 100% muslim population definitely indicates foreign origins in the very least, if not arab then prehaps persian, turk or afghan and like several other castes it probably had a large influx of native converts who appropriated that caste its especially difficult as the name arain is so often confused with other distinct castes. Even by the brits who often had to correct errors in census records. But what bothers me is that other users have a complete anthema against any origin arab origin story. I think in the least that both should be presented evenly. After all there isn't any conclusive evidence going either way and both arab and rajput origin stories are the oldest theories. -fyingsimurgh

yeh it seems that some people think they need to educate the arains about their origins which is absurd as no one but the arains know best about their origins and though there are several theories regarding the arains, some claiming that all arains descend from the ancestor Saleem al raee of the Quraysh and other theories stating from Iran, but by consensus arains agree that they belong to various Arab clans that arrived to the subcontinent with Mohammed bin qasim in 711AD and are the offspring of these Arab soldiers who were not able to return back to there home land due to the governor of Iraq Hajjaj Yusuf being killed and replaced and threatening these Arab soldiers in the subcontinent not to come back or else there fate would be the same as Mohammad bin qasim there commander who had went back and was executed, hence these Arab settlers struggled really hard in the subcontinent for there living and over time the word al raee (Arabic meaning=the shepherd) changed to Arain by the locals living and the arains were also known as Mohammedans by the locals as they were recognised as the followers of the prophet Muhammad (s) this is the theory that arains agree on amongst themselves according to ‘tareekh e arain’ which makes sense, but for some reason ‘rajputs’ and other ‘non Arab’ castes tend to envy this and make statements that this is a claim by the arains to be proven as original conquers which again is absurd. If arains and rajputs have any relation at all then arains would be known as rajputs and not arains!!!.

Also when non Muslim historians, right about the people of the subcontinent they tend to have an objection with these Muslims claiming Arab ancestry but when it comes to ashkenazi Jews who have no connection what so ever as being Israelis, as Israelis are a brown race and not a white race and Ashkenazi are European white and are known as khizri (scyathian) people but historians support all the millions of European who say they descend from Israel, isn’t this strange!!!!!

The bit where it says that arains were Hindu and converted to Islam is a completely wrong statement and should be removed Janejo59 (talk) 21:45, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Reliable source

Can anyone explain why the cited The Arain Diaspora in the Rohilkhand region of India: A historical perspective: General History of Arain tribe of Punjab & Sindh with socio cultural background ... is a reliable source? It is available on Amazon as an e-book but I can find no hard copy nor any academic citing or review of it. We do not cite it fully anyway (no publisher, year, oage numbers etc) and I am beginning to think it may fall foul of WP:SPS. - Sitush (talk) 06:25, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: can you spot a hard copy edition? - Sitush (talk) 13:49, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

No, I don't think a hard copy version exists even.

But while searching for it, Google somehow thought I was looking for this paper: http://dx.doi.org/10.1080/19472498.2016.1260348. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:39, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks, Kautilya3. I think we should remove the source given the dubious nature of it. I can't see the content of the paper you link but may be able to get it using WP:RX. There are a few other ongoing threads here if you have the time/inclination to weigh in. - Sitush (talk) 15:09, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

The author of the book appears to be a medical researcher. This is probably just a hobby. Not a WP:RS.--regentspark (comment) 15:15, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. I have removed it. - Sitush (talk) 15:29, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

New Edits

Thank you User:Sitush for your editing and inputs. I found several good articles of history written with British era sources. Should I go and delete on those pages ? Are British era english administrators so untrustworthy that for making a neutral point of view their experienced opinions cant be written ?

• You also removed Chaudhry, Asghar A. (1963) which is post partition India source ? Did you read what he has written in his book ?
• You removed a complete point here what was actual problem with this point and source?

• This [1] needs to be rewritten as it violate copyright.

Rest I will rewrite if it is copyvio. I hope you also want to see it as good article. ScholarM (talk) 12:03, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Hi, we avoid tarikhs/tareeks in the same manner that we avoid using caste associations as sources for statements about history. Plenty of reasons, including often poor editorial oversight and amateur writers, and often pursuing an inappropriate/non-academic agenda, such as political manouevrings and self-glorification.

There are exceptional circumstances where citing a Raj era source might be of use. Those circumstances do not usually include the uses given in this article unless, for example, they have been subsequently discussed in some more recent work (in which case we would usually cite that work). I forget where I put it but somewhere there is an (incomplete) summary of the problems with relying on Raj material, a summary based on discussions over many years involving many Wikipedians and thus WP:CONSENSUS. - Sitush (talk) 21:14, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

*You also removed Chaudhry, Asghar A. (1963) which is post partition India source? Why at all his book and content is removed? ScholarM (talk) 20:37, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

UK info

Does anyone know roughly what the UK Arain population may be? We are going back and forth on the article, in part due to copyright issues, but I suspect that it is so small a number that it doesn't merit more than a one-line mention along with any other European/American etc diaspora. Purely anecdotal but I haven't seen a mention of Arains in Manchester in the 50+ years I have lived there, so I doubt they amount to much. - Sitush (talk) 13:23, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I have done some digging around myself & can't find anything. The cited Werbner has written a study specifically of the Mancunian Arain community but their position/role/population etc in the country seems to be minimal and Manchester chosen simply because the Asian diasporic populations of, say, Bradford and Leicester have been well documented for years. The Arain Council UK website that we mention doesn't seem to have any content more recent than 2011.

I have also done a general search for the worldwide Arain diaspora and am not getting much in the way of results, eg an interview with one person living in South Africa.

I think we may be making a mountain out of a molehill here. - Sitush (talk) 06:52, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Total seven lac Punjabis are present in the United Kingdom which are divided among Jats, Gujjars, Awans, Arains and Rajputs. What is problem of mentioning even if they are not in millions? I have seen lot of articles here which mentions about diaspora community even in thousands. Does not it gives a more clear picture of present presence of this caste ? ScholarM (talk) 20:23, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Not if the numbers are insignificant to the adopted country & the tribe itself. There is also a bit of a perceived "crisis" among British South Asians whereby the second and subsequent generations of those living in the UK are increasingly unwilling to adopt the norms of their parents' homeland, meaning that the caste/tribe ties are less strong than once they were. Whether the Arains of the UK buck that trend is, as far as I can tell, not known. Basically, we know little about them except through the one-city, one-tribe study of one academic who has, for want of a better phrase, chosen them as a hobbyhorse. At best, it might merit a single sentence in a section about the diaspora generally. - Sitush (talk) 03:46, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Literacy

In comparison to other caste, a study submitted to LSE, UK suggested that Arain, caste appear to have a statistically significant higher probability of being literate and of attending school than members of low castes[2]. For ex- in Toba Tek Singh, also in central Punjab, found that among the dominant Arain caste which constituted around half the population 85 per cent of the households owned agricultural land, there were no illiterates.Page 5 ScholarM (talk) 20:42, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

We already touch on this in the article - their superior education has led to jobs in the law etc. I don't think we gain much by flooding the article with stats but perhaps consensus is otherwise. - Sitush (talk) 03:24, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't want to flood it but editing to make it a good article. If education is kept as separate point then there seems to be no problem. I don't want any non neutral or biased portrayal of this caste. As there is nothing in the present form showing any clear picture of the this caste. The origin para is now totally one side view because there are several authors who wrote various other theories, which were deleted without just cause. There is nothing about modern history and contemporary politics/society and culture. My suggestions is that let a separate education and profession heading is created to write specifically about it. ScholarM (talk) 20:15, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Then draft such a section and propose it here. - Sitush (talk) 03:47, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Ok. I will draft and propose sections. ScholarM (talk) 17:46, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

South Asian Studies

We cite South Asian Studies. Centre for South Asian Studies, University of the Punjab. 1993., which is an incomplete reference. It needs the paper title, author, volume, issue etc. I think Taylor & Francis host it online behind a paywall but the url we give only shows me a Google Books snippet view. Searching for arain using that limited view suggests that we may in fact be misrepresenting it.

It seems odd that we cite Jaffrelot as saying the Arain moved into Sindh & Punjab at the time of the Arab invasions yet in the lead we imply that they have always been there. The journal snippet contradicts the statement in the lead (hence apparent misrepresentation) & may lend support to Jaffrelot - it says they ended up in Sindh etc after migration from "Arabia".

I know there has been discussion about Arabian origins here recently but this definitely needs to be sorted. We need to precisely identify the source we cite and we need to ensure that we are not twisting what it says. - Sitush (talk) 08:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

The Taylor & Francis journal is the journal of the British Association for South Asian Studies. It is unrelated to this one. But Punjab University too has its volumes online. The volume 10 is here. The page 87 has a paper on Mian Muhammad Shafi, which has no more than the one-liner we see on the Google snippet view. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:07, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Excellent sleuthing, Kautilya3. Given the throwaway nature of the author's remark, in an article focussed on something else entirely & with the vague "it is said" proviso, it strikes me that not only does the thing not support our statement but it is also not much use for construction of any other statement here. I will remove it from the article unless someone has an objection. - Sitush (talk) 06:12, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

What you actually want to remove dear, which source or which point? The article is focused on a person of this caste and the author has described little background of this caste. How does it is less significant? Then I should say any other thing mentioned by him in that chapter other than about Shafi, will also be unreliable? Then why the author is reliable at all then ? Let assume everything from his as unreliable. ScholarM (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Removal of the citation is what I am suggesting. It does not support the claim we make and what it does say is vague. Our own style guidance suggests we should not useit is said because it is vague, and that is exactly what the source's writer is doing in a throwaway remark. The writer is not considering the community but rather the person. - Sitush (talk) 03:52, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Removing will not serve purpose, it will show that something we are selecting or removing on the basis of our own choice. ScholarM (talk) 17:58, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

Utter nonsense. We do not misrepresent what sources say just to fix some pov issue - in fact, doing so would be an extreme example of pov editing. - Sitush (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Origin theory different claims

Political scientist, Ishtiyaq Ahmad in this same source said that the Arain group, to which I belong, claims Arab extraction. The strongest argument in favour of this claim is that Arains are always Muslims and almost entirely Sunnis as were the early Arabs who came with Muhammad bin Qasim. This page has Suryavanshi Rajput claims written by author so then NPOV demands that this Arab claim should also be there in the heading. ScholarM (talk) 17:57, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

I actually think you should stop editing the article because your association with the subject may be clouding your view. This would not stop you commenting on this talk page, provided you are following our norms.

I have said before that the Arab stuff should go in but I think we need to back away from using Ahmad as much as possible except perhaps for any relevant peer reviewed academic papers. His stuff in newspapers is not great to use given his own affiliation to the community, nor should we be linking to the apna.org website because it is full of copyright problems. Sitush (talk) 14:34, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Apna.org is purely a third party source and neutral in nature. Ishtiyaq Ahmad is researcher and put what is the view of this caste about themselves and what some sources says about it. For example- If Awan trace their origins back to Imam Ali through his son Al-Abbas ibn Ali then this view is necessary for encyclopedia as their view about their origin. Though, there may be some more facts relating to their origin.

Beside, this Awan page notable list also needed to be deleted as per your standards. The peer reviewed papers are not just criteria as RS. ScholarM (talk) 14:53, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

No, apna is not merely a third-party source and neutral. It is the website of a North American pressure group but, more importantly, you have completely missed my point. They (a bunch of amateurs) are transcribing and scanning copyrighted content and we do not link to web pages hosting such material. See WP:YT for an example of this.

I couldn't care less here about what is happening at the Awan article. This article has to stand on its own merits. For example, see WP:OSE. - Sitush (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Politics and law

I have just removed a preening section that was titled Politics and law. The source was so poorly written that many of the statistics it contains are open to interpretation and, in any case, being ranked fourth in whatever the author was referring to is not really significant, whereas if they had been highest-ranked then it might have been

The section also listed four notable politicians/lawyers but we already have a dedicated section for notable people and thus it amounts to repetition.

I am not opposed to having a section discussing the role of the community in society but it needs to be a well-rounded section that puts their role in context and uses quality sources that actually make sense. Academics and publishers with a poor grasp of the nuances and potential ambiguities of the English language that they choose to use are by definition not reliable sources. This issue goes way beyond minor regional variations in the language. - Sitush (talk) 04:59, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I am changing the language and whatever the substantial or unsubstantial position the source says, after all it reflects the political position of the Arain tribe. More can be written about its position and significance which is only possible once you don't delete entire headings. If it is improved it will make sense also. Hope you will coperate.

The Arain caste holds significant positions in Pakistan's politics and from 1985 to 2013, it holds 14% of seats in National Assembly.

You removed Mian Aminuddin and Mian Abdul Rashid which were not in notable list. I am rewriting this paragraph and removing the repetition also. ScholarM (talk) 11:37, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

References

The author may be talking of the Arains of Faisalabad because that is what the entire paper is about. You have just proven my point. Add name with sources to the Notables list by all means but not to a crappy glorification section. - Sitush (talk) 13:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I ask again: why does being fourth in anything matter? How does it compare to the relative community populations, for example? The cited paper is a mess. - Sitush (talk) 13:26, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

We need to show political position/domination of the tribe in Punjab. The source as you say is not upto the mark. Then I found this,

The domination of few biraderis in Punjab, such as the Jat, Rajput, Arain, Gujar, Sayed, and Baloch is reflected in their disproportionate share of seats in the national and provincial assemblies as compared to members of other biraderis. In addition, the heads of district government in Punjab, which are mostly considered highly important positions, are from these few major biraderis[3] and this, The largest group consisted of Muslim cultivator castes including Jat, Rajput, and Arain.[4] ScholarM (talk) 20:03, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

It looks like you are starting from the premise of wanting to highlight something about the community. That is never a good way to build a neutral article because it leads to cherry-picking of sources. - Sitush (talk) 03:27, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

This is wrong to say I am cherry-picking the sources. I tried to found the political representation and found above sources which mentions that this caste is one of the dominant biradaries in politics. The sources are reliable and neutral. I want all the points from the source i provide in very neutral language. I dont want any point in non neutral style. Just write what is fact. Let the article have information about this caste. ScholarM (talk) 20:35, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Find a reliable source that isn't vague and you are good to go. A source that names a big range of biradari (who in all probability are also the most populous, and vote along tribal lines) doesn't seem particularly useful to me. It would be odd in such a highly tribalised system if those with the greatest population did not "dominate" but how six or more can dominate is beyond me - it almost makes a mockery of the word itself: usually, one person or entity dominates. The papers you mention look professional etc but I worry about how we word it. - Sitush (talk) 14:52, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps say that, along with x, y & z, they are considered to be one of the disproportionately influential biradaris in both national and regional assemblies? - Sitush (talk) 15:17, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

That can be done User:Sitush. Allow me to do it or you can do it. ScholarM (talk) 10:38, 27 May 2020 (UTC)