Talk:Arain/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Arab imaginings

POV statements, opinions claiming a reference which the reference doesn't support, and non-credible references, 193.115.70.9:

[ 2 ] "This view is not, however, shared by the Arabs themselves[ref]".

The reference is a sweepingly racist & untrue comment by a pakistani about arabs- ""Unfortunately, Arabs view all Pakistanis as dirt — our real and imaginary claims of kinship with them notwithstanding.", There is many a slip betwixt cup and lip, Ishtiaq Ahmed, Daily Times, Pakistan, 18/04/2006." This reference provides no support for the view that arabs think anything about the arain at all, so the statement "This view is not, however, shared by the Arabs themselves" is practically made up & POV

Point taken. That sentence could be omitted, but there is a caveat. The Arabs are noted for their passion (bordering on the extreme) for genealogy (Philip K Hitti, History of the Arabs, 10th ed.). Afghans settled in South Asia for well over a thousand years are still acknowledged as "Arabs" (i.e., of Arabic descent) by both the Arabs and the Afghans (cf, Idries Shah's biographical details). What the Arabs think therefore carries some weight, hence the statement is likewise not uninformed as it might otherwise appear.
Kneeslasher 15:32, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes the arabs WERE noted for the passion of geneology, not anymore, especially since Islam became ingrained in the arab mindset which forbade exreme tribalism. I can confirm with you that Arabs do not consider Afgans as Arabs, Afghanisatn is not part of the arab league, nor do they speak arabic, the main qualification. Also Afghans do not consider themselves Arab, rather the pashtun oral traditions hold the Theory of Pashtun descent from Israelites of the Lost Ten Tribes of Isreal, who converted to Islam. There is nothing in the reference to that says anything about what the Arabs think about Arain, it is also an untrue Pakistani stereotype of Arabs, based on the poor experiences of Pakistanis in the khalij or gulf area. Pakistanis would be well informed if they acknowledged that any ill-treatment of them by Khalijis is not against Pakistanis but also of non-gulf arabs such as Egyptian, Moroccan and Yemeni arabs. Other arabs & non-Arabs are also treated similarily to Pakisanis in the gulf by rich khalijis 193.115.70.9 17:34, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You've grasped the wrong end of the stick here: the Afghan tradition that they are of Arab descent is a can of worms I don't even want to touch. My point was about one famous half-Afghan who was known to be of Arabic (the Prophet's own lineage) descent and treated accordingly by both Afghans and Arabs. However, that doesn't detract from your main point. I'll excise the POV based reference accordingly.
Kneeslasher 17:49, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The Bhutto debacle

Benazir Bhutto has stated in her autobiography that the Bhuttos are a Rajput clan.

From http://www.geocities.com/pak_history/Sindh.html:

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kneeslasher (talk • contribs) 17:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC).

Origin section -- statistical data re: religious breakdown of castes

I don't want to get into personal spat over this with everybody, I'm just trying to make sure the info reflected on this page is accurate.

As the "Origin" section currently states, "The Arain, despite being majority Muslim, do have Sikh and Hindu members[12], as do the other agricultural castes of the Punjab (the Jats, Gujjars and Rajputs)[13]. The Arab origin claim can therefore be largely viewed as a desire for claiming an unbroken practise of Islam through the ages, for current prestige rather than accurate genealogical designation[14]."

This is misleading, as it attempts to reach a conclusion ("therefore...") from a misleading premise, namely the inference that there is no significant difference between the Arain, Jats, Gujjars, and Rajputs when it comes to the proportion of Muslims in each of the castes.

As the referenced website (Joshua Project, which was originally cited in support of this mistaken premise) actually reveals if you bother to look at the data there, the Arains are 97% Muslim, the Jats are 53% Muslim, the Gujjars are 55% Muslim, and the Rajputs are 31% Muslim. If anyone disputes these numbers, please provide an alternative source.

If there is no dispute over these numbers, then it is clear that the conclusion drawn above is unsupported by these statistics, and the Arain, like it or not, are significantly distinct in their religious makeup from these other castes, a fact which can be explained in various ways, but which cannot simply be explained away by saying, "They're pretty much similar to the other agricultural castes and the Arab origin claim must be a lie."

The Arab origin claim may be circumstantial, but it is certainly not contradicted by the data cited here.

I welcome discussion about this point.

Nizamarain 20:01, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Why go from good numbers to vague information?

Before we have good information - Arain 97% Muslims - with reference. What is the basis for deleting? This should not be for petty infighting, it should be for facts and conclusions from those facts. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Hangama101 (talk • contribs) 15:50, 6 April 2007 (UTC).

Indian Arain

Why the Section about Indian Arains has been deleted. When There are More then 3 Laks Arains in Indian Uttar Pradesh Bareilly , Pilibhit, Udham Singh Nagar Distt. They Claim their Relations with pakistani Arains and have very disticnt and Unique culture like Paki Arains. Shabiha--Shabiha 10:26, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Arains are not, and were never, classified as a martial race

To the idiot who persists in peddling myths about the Arains contribution to the armed forces, you are twisting source material and presenting a ludicrous and disingenuous take on the Arains reputation vis-à-vis the military. Please consult the following:

“…Zia came from a community not heavily represented in the armed forces (the Arains from Punjab)…” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ruoBy5dqz1MJ:www.workmall.com/wfb2001/pakistan/pakistan_history_zulfiqar_ali_bhutto_and_a_new_constitutional_system.html+%22Zia+came+from+a+community+not+heavily+represented+in+the+armed+forces+(the+Arains+from+Punjab)&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk)

“Ethnically, General Zia was from a line of Arains, who do not have much presence in the army, unlike Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan who were Pathans. Pathans are well represented in Pakistan’s armed forces.” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:TBifkQ5dKv8J:yespakistan.com/people/past-presidents.asp+%22Ethnically,+General+Zia+was+from+a+line+of+Arains,+who+do+not+have+much+presence+in+the+army,&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk)

"The army was an unusual career for an Arain youngster; the British had not regarded the community as one of India's martial races..." (Pakistan under Zia, 1977-1988, Shahid Javed Burki)

If after reading the above, you still claim that Arains can be classified as a martial race – which is entirely your own, biased and unfounded viewpoint – then you are not only delusional, but devoid of all shame. The Arains have never been classified as belonging to those groups recognised as “martial races”, pre or post-partition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.165.145 (talk) 23:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Using a decent language does not hurt, it actually helps. Remember Bhutto was hanged by Zia. Any such comments were natural. Certainly there were no Arain regiments in British India Army, but for that we have to understand the history better. In the war of Independence 1857 there were not many Muslim names who fought Britishers tooth and nail. we can talk of General Bakht Khan and Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi. The latter was Arain who kept the Colonial army out of Ludhiana till he died. Similarly Maulana Habibur Rahman, was one of the founders of the Majlis-e-Ahrar, a movement of anti-imperialist nationalist Muslims of India. no wonder British did not want members of this clan in their army. —Preceding mmza comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 20:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

ADINA BEG KHAN

ADINA BEG KHAN (d. 1758), governor of the Punjab for a few months in AD 1758, was, according to Ahwal-i-Dina Beg Khan, an unpublished Persian manuscript, the son of Channu, of the Arain agriculturalist caste, mostly settled in Doaba region of the Punjab. He was born at the village of Sharakpur, near LAHORE, now in Sheikhupura district of Pakistan. Adina Beg was brought up in Mughal homes, for the most part in Jalalabad, Khanpur and Bajvara in the Jalandhar Doab. Starting his career as a soldier, he rose to be collector of revenue of the village of Kang in the Lohian area, near Sultanpur Lodhi. He obtained half a dozen villages in Kang area on lease and within an year the entire Kang region. After some time Nawab Zakariya Khan, the governor of Lahore, appointed him chief (hakam) of Sultanpur Lodhi. When after Nadir Shah`s invasion (1739) SIKHS started gaining power, Zakariya Khan made Adina Beg Khan nazim (administrator) of the Jalandhar Doab to suppress them. Shrewd as he was, he tried to strengthen his own position by encouraging Sikhs instead of repressing them. Under pressure from Zakariya Khan, he however had to expel them from his dominion. For nonpayment of government dues he was taken into custody under the orders of the governor of Lahore and subjected to torture. On being set free after an year, he was appointed deputy nazim under Shah Nawaz Khan. After Zakariya Khan`s death on l July 1745, his sons, Yahiya Khan and Shah Nawaz Khan contested succession. Adina Beg maintained good relations with both. Shah Nawaz Khan having captured Lahore appointed Adina Beg chief of Jalandhar Doab. Meanwhile, Nadir Shah died on 19 June 1747 and Ahmad Shah Durrani became ruler of Kabul and Qandahar. Shah Nawaz following Adina Beg`s advice invited the Durrani king to march towards the Punjab, warning at the same time the government at Delhi about the Durrani`s invasion. As Ahmad Shah advanced into the country. Shah Nawaz fled towards Delhi. Mu`in ul-Mulk (Mir Mannu), son of Qamar udDin, the chief wazir of the Delhi king, succeeded in checking the invader at Manupur, near SIRHIND. Adina Beg joined hands with Mu`in ul-Mulk and was wounded in the battle. Mu`in ul-Mulk became governor of Lahore, with Kaura Mall as his diwan and Adina Beg as Faujdar of the Jalandhar Doab as before. Sikhs again started plundering the country. Ahmad Shah Durrani launched upon his third incursion into the Punjab (December 1751), this time forcing Mu`in ul-Mulk to surrender. Mu`in remained governor, now on the Durrani`s behalf. He and Adina Beg directed their energies towards quelling the Sikhs. On the festival of Hola Mohalla in March 1753, Adina Beg fell upon SIKH pilgrims at ANANDPUR killing a large number of them. The Sikhs retaliated by plundering villages in the Jalandhar and Bari Doabs. Adina Beg was as quick in coming to terms as he was in opening hostilities. He assigned some of the revenue of his territory to the Sikhs and admitted several of them, including Jassa SINGH Ramgarhia, into his army. Mu`in ul-Mulk died on 3 November 1753, and during the time of his widow, Murad Begam (Mughlani Begam), Adina Beg assumed independent authority in the Doab, extending his influence up to Sirhind (March 1755). The Emperor of Delhi bestowed on him the title of Zafar Jarig Khan. The ruler of Kangra accepted his over lordship. In May 1756, he was appointed governor of Lahore and Multan by the Mughal government of Delhi on payment of an annual tribute of thirty lakh of rupees. Ahmad Shah Durrani came to Mughlani Begam`s help and Adina Beg took refuge in the Sivalik hills. The Afghans reappointed him faujdar of the Jalandhar Doab. During Taimur Shah`s governorship (175758), Adina Beg began to look around for allies with a view to expelling the Afghans. The Sikhs and Adina Beg`s troops joined hands and defeated the Afghans at Mahalpur, in Hoshiarpur district. Adina Beg expressed his gratitude to the Sikhs by presenting a sum of a thousand rupees as homage to the GURU GRANTH Sahib and a lakh and a quarter as protection money for the Jalandhar Doab. Keeping up appearances with the Sikh sardars, he wished to weaken their power and invited to this end Marathas who had taken Delhi to come to the Punjab, offering them one lakh of rupees a day on march. He also persuaded Sikhs to help the Marathas against the Afghans. The Marathas led by Raghunath Rao and accompanied by the forces of the Sikhs and those of Adina Beg entered Lahore in April 1758. Adina Beg got the subahdan of the Punjab at 75 lakh of rupees a year to be paid to the Marathas. The Punjab had now three masters: the Mughals, the Afghans and the Marathas, but in reality only two: Adina Beg and the Sikhs. Adina Beg brooked no rivals, and resumed his campaign against the Sikhs, increasing his armed strength and hiring a thousand woodcutters to clear up the forests in which the Sikhs were wont to seek shelter in times of stress. He laid siege to the Sikh fort of Ram Rauni at AMRITSAR. Before the Sikhs rallied to confront him, Adina Beg succumbed to an attack of colic at BATALA on 10 September 1758. His dead body was buried, honoring his will, at Khanpur. 2 km northwest of Hoshiarpur.

1. Gupta, Hari Ram, History of the Sikhs, vol. II. Delhi, 1978 2. Gandhi, Surjit Singh, Struggle of the Sikhs for Sovereignty. Delhi, 1980 3. Bhagat Singh, Sikh Polity. Delhi, 1978 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.72.215.225 (talk) 17:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

This is a rather long account of General Adina Beg Khan Zafra Jang Bahadar, Ruler of Doaba and Punjab. It has been written from a certain perspective which is amply clear. This is a typical power game. Ascent to power is ruthless and uses all kinds of shenanigans and Machiavellian tactics. History is replete with numerous such heroes. Puritans and Utopians are hard to find. One thing is clear, however. Had he not died, there was no way to snatch power from him. A detailed account appears at http://www.lahorebazaar.com/lahore/dynasty/afghan_period.asp. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 20:22, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Blanking of "Joshua Project" links

Recently an editor going by the name Jeroenvrp has been going around WP blanking citations that reference the Joshua Project. His/her grounds for doing so appear to be that the Joshua Project is an evangelical organization. However, he/she has not questioned the actual validity of the data.

I have undone Jeroenvrp's edits for the reason that reliable data is reliable data, regardless of the source. I have no affiliation with the Joshua Project and am opposed to fundamentalism and evangelical zealotry of all sorts. However, here we have a source for data that cannot be found elsewhere, and so we should use it, while noting the source. Blanking of links, especially without any discussion or consensus, is contrary to the spirit of WP. Nizamarain 00:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

On further consideration, based on information provided here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Ethnic_groups#Blanking_of_links, I concur that Joshua Project links should be left out of the article. Nizamarain 17:12, 28 January 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nizamarain (talk • contribs)

I understand that Joshua project has fairly authentic information but it has erred at some places. It shows Bhuttas to be 100% Muslims, whereas in the discussion here and from common knowledge Bhutta is a sub caste of Rajput, Jatt or Arain. If we consider the claim of Jatt and Rajput that Bhutta are their sub-caste then there should be Hindu Bhutt also. On the other hand if we accept the Arain claim of Bhutta being a sub-caste of Arain and then dovetail it with their other claim of being a 100% Muslim caste, then perhaps Joshua is right in showing them so. My point is that we don't have to blindly accept what this project says, though it generally says authentic things. —Preceding mmza comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 19:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Why Arains are not martial race

Arains have been traditionally sunnis and Deobandis. Everybody knows how much love there is between Deobandis and British. It was natural that Arains be not classified as a "martial race". Otherwise , Arains have characteristics of martial race like discipline , courage , guts , physical strength , etc.... but the British actively discriminated against Deobandis , which is why Arains could not get into military service. Also , being very religious Muslims , the Arains too would not have wanted to serve under the British "infidels" whom they regarded as oppressors and usurpers. Also , at that time , there were many practices in the Army which were regarded as un-Islamic , like drinking , dancing , keeping long moustaches , eating non-halal meat , etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.242.9 (talk) 21:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Not only is there not a single, reliable historical source that supports the above contention, the allegation itself is complete and utter nonsense. Pathans are noted for the adherence to strict, orthodox Islamic practices - why were they then so heavily recruited for the British Indian Army? The Sikhs fought two bitter and bloody wars against the British, before having to relinquish their kingdom in the Punjab - did they, or the Arains, then have more reason to view the British as "oppressors" and "usurpers"? If Arains were so reluctant to serve under the British "infidels" what accounts for Zia-ul-Haq enlisting? And to claim that the British Indian Army was plagued by un-Islamic practices such as "drinking," dancing," "keeping long moustaches," and "eating non-halal meat," is not just silly, but a distortion of the truth. For starters, the keeping of moustaches was a firmly established practice amongst Punjabi Muslims as it is. More importantly, the British actively encouraged its recruits to retain their religious practices, which they viewed as being integral to fostering qualities they recognised as forging their identities as "martial races" - hence, Sikh recruits for example, were instructed to observe kesh, and during the First World War, British officers commanding Muslim troops, actually made a point of eating halal meat when dining with their charges. Finally, anyone who is even familiar with the workings of the Pakistani army is aware of the strong drinking culture amongst the officer classes, so to single out the British Indian Army in this respect is just disingenuous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.27.77.75 (talk) 18:19, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

ARAINS ARE THE REAL MARTIAN RACE

here r some examples that shows how fit and what guds arains hav as martial race , mian salim ullah known as adina beg who was governer of punjab and he butchered sikhs was a arain from sheikhupura , captan aibak arain , zia-ul-haq was miltry dectaitor who ruled pak 11 years with iron although he hanged z a bhutto who made him cheif of staff only because bhutto and zia was from same arain caste , here is the story of another arain freedom fighter who made serious demage to british rulers .

The News : Saturday, December 15, 2007 However, one great freedom fighter from Punjab whose heroic struggle has not been given proper recognition is Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi. His direct descendant, Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani, who is currently the chief imam of the main Friday Mosque in Ludhiana, in east Punjab, provided me detailed information on him in an interview recorded on Jan 4, 2005, in the courtyard of the mosque.

Maulana Sani's grandfather, Maulana Habibur Rahman, was one of the founders of the Majlis-e-Ahrar, a movement of anti-imperialist nationalist Muslims, who returned to India after spending one day in Lahore in August 1947, arguing that thousands of Muslims remained in east Punjab and they should not be abandoned. That is how that family remained in Ludhiana.

My attention to Maulana Sani was drawn by Baldev Raj Verma, owner of Naseem Hosiery in Ludhiana, whose father, Hansraj, was on the famous Japanese ship, Komagata Maru, in 1914 chartered by Punjabis, mainly Sikhs, to get to Canada. They were refused entry. It resulted in the emergence of the Ghadar Party and the first anti-colonial struggle in early 20th century in Punjab.

Mr Verma informed me that a famous Muslim family of freedom fighters from Ludhiana still lived in the town centre and were in charge of the main mosque, where thousands of Muslims congregated every Friday to pray. Ludhiana is the major industrial city of east Punjab. Indeed workers from all over India come and work there, among them a very large numbers of Muslims from UP and Bihar.

Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani informed me that his family belonged to the Arain biradari (patrilineage). His great, great grandfather, Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi, was the first in Punjab to take up arms against the English East India Company in 1857. He collected a large fighting force, which included Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs, that drove the English out of not only Ludhiana but also Panipat. He then headed to Delhi with his men to support Bahadur Shah Zafar. He fell fighting along with thousands of others at Chandni Chowk in 1857.

In British records Ludhianvi is described as a fiery speaker who exercised considerable influence on the people in that region. Some reports incorrectly describe him as a Gujjar. In any event, the British deprived his family of their property and subjected them to other forms of persecution. The Arains in general were branded as a dangerous group, their lands were confiscated and they were excluded from recruitment in the army; hence their classification as a non-martial group.

However, his descendants continued to support revolutionary struggles and both the Ghadar Party and later Bhagat Singh's associates were aided by them. They also helped Subhash Chandra Bose cross Punjab safely into the North-West Frontier Province. The Tribune, Chandigarh, of Jan 7, 2001, carried a story on the anti-imperialist services of that family.

It is worth remembering that the British adopted similar harsh measures against the Bengalis and Biharis, and some tribes and castes from UP that took part in the Uprising of 1857. They were also declared unfit for military service. Therefore, excluding Arains from the army was consistent with British policy on rebellious tribes and castes.

However, in the ancient, Mughal and Sikh periods, Arains had held prominent positions, such as governors and army generals. Many gotras, or sub-clans, of the Arains bear names that indicate soldiering as an occupation. For example: Ghalar, Gahgeer and Goheer (ferocious horse of armoured corps), Gatku (fencer), Kavali (soldier patrolling while others rest), Basroo (observation post), Bahman (brave, uncontrollable or insurmountable), Bhaila (alms-keeper who walks with the commander when he is giving away alms after a victory), Daulay (those who got land in return for military services), Khatora (spy), Ramay (archers), Rattay (bloody, red, ferocious fighters), Ramday (red -eyed soldiers), Labanay (an army column equipped with batons), Jatalay (victors), Qutub Shahi: (soldiers or their offspring who accompanied Qutubuddin Aibak), Sappal (marksmen), Bahalwan (driver of a chariot), Mudh (logisticians supplying logistics and reinforcement to the army), Teerandaz (archers), Katarband (users of katar, a weapon used by ancient armies) and Bhutto (dwellers of high places).

It would be interesting if some filmmaker in Pakistan could depict the saga of Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi on the silver screen. It would be important to contact his family in Ludhiana for more details, but more importantly the script should remain faithful to the true legacy of that great man. He was by no means a religious fanatic, although he described his struggle against the British as jihad. He was a patriot who joined hands with all communities in the first major struggle against the colonial takeover of the subcontinent.

The writer is a visiting senior research fellow at the Institute of South Asian Studies (ISAS), —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.8 (talk) 11:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

ARAINS ARE THE REAL MARTIAL RACE

here is one of the example of that ludhyanvi was a arain freedom fighter that these bloody british historiyans also made gujjar only due to their dirty nature , arains are brave that always been in army in huge numbers like mian salim ullah known as adina beg , shah abdul qadir ludhyanvi , and the chief of army staff of pak that rule pak for 11 years with iron hand ,all this shows that wat guds arains hav , here is the story of ludhyanvi .However, one great freedom fighter from Punjab whose heroic struggle has not been given proper recognition is Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi. His direct descendant, Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani, who is currently the chief imam of the main Friday Mosque in Ludhiana, in east Punjab, provided me detailed information on him in an interview recorded on Jan 4, 2005, in the courtyard of the mosque.

Maulana Sani's grandfather, Maulana Habibur Rahman, was one of the founders of the Majlis-e-Ahrar, a movement of anti-imperialist nationalist Muslims, who returned to India after spending one day in Lahore in August 1947, arguing that thousands of Muslims remained in east Punjab and they should not be abandoned. That is how that family remained in Ludhiana.

My attention to Maulana Sani was drawn by Baldev Raj Verma, owner of Naseem Hosiery in Ludhiana, whose father, Hansraj, was on the famous Japanese ship, Komagata Maru, in 1914 chartered by Punjabis, mainly Sikhs, to get to Canada. They were refused entry. It resulted in the emergence of the Ghadar Party and the first anti-colonial struggle in early 20th century in Punjab.

Mr Verma informed me that a famous Muslim family of freedom fighters from Ludhiana still lived in the town centre and were in charge of the main mosque, where thousands of Muslims congregated every Friday to pray. Ludhiana is the major industrial city of east Punjab. Indeed workers from all over India come and work there, among them a very large numbers of Muslims from UP and Bihar.

Maulana Habibur Rahman Sani informed me that his family belonged to the Arain biradari (patrilineage). His great, great grandfather, Shah Abdul Qadir Ludhianvi, was the first in Punjab to take up arms against the English East India Company in 1857. He collected a large fighting force, which included Muslims, Hindus and Sikhs, that drove the English out of not only Ludhiana but also Panipat. He then headed to Delhi with his men to support Bahadur Shah Zafar. He fell fighting along with thousands of others at Chandni Chowk in 1857.

In British records Ludhianvi is described as a fiery speaker who exercised considerable influence on the people in that region. Some reports incorrectly describe him as a Gujjar. In any event, the British deprived his family of their property and subjected them to other forms of persecution. The Arains in general were branded as a dangerous group, their lands were confiscated and they were excluded from recruitment in the army; hence their classification as a non-martial group.

However, his descendants continued to support revolutionary struggles and both the Ghadar Party and later Bhagat Singh's associates were aided by them. They also helped Subhash Chandra Bose cross Punjab safely into the North-West Frontier Province. The Tribune, Chandigarh, of Jan 7, 2001, carried a story on the anti-imperialist services of that family.

It is worth remembering that the British adopted similar harsh measures against the Bengalis and Biharis, and some tribes and castes from UP that took part in the Uprising of 1857. They were also declared unfit for military service. Therefore, excluding Arains from the army was consistent with British policy on rebellious tribes and castes.

However, in the ancient, Mughal and Sikh periods, Arains had held prominent positions, such as governors and army generals. Many gotras, or sub-clans, of the Arains bear names that indicate soldiering as an occupation. For example: Ghalar, Gahgeer and Goheer (ferocious horse of armoured corps), Gatku (fencer), Kavali (soldier patrolling while others rest), Basroo (observation post), Bahman (brave, uncontrollable or insurmountable), Bhaila (alms-keeper who walks with the commander when he is giving away alms after a victory), Daulay (those who got land in return for military services), Khatora (spy), Ramay (archers), Rattay (bloody, red, ferocious fighters), Ramday (red -eyed soldiers), Labanay (an army column equipped with batons), Jatalay (victors), Qutub Shahi: (soldiers or their offspring who accompanied Qutubuddin Aibak), Sappal (marksmen), Bahalwan (driver of a chariot), Mudh (logisticians supplying logistics and reinforcement to the army), Teerandaz (archers), Katarband (users of katar, a weapon used by ancient armies) and Bhutto (dwellers of high places). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.8 (talk) 11:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

RE: ARAINS BEING A SO-CALLED "MARTIAL RACE"

Okay, this is beginning to get ridiculous now. The information above that has been provided, in support of the contention that Arains are a "martial race" amounts to nothing of any substance whatsoever. Firstly, there are members of other communities that the British did not recognise as a martial race, who have attained the highest ranks in both the Indian and Pakistani armed forces. Secondly, the information presented above, is not only an entirely questionable and subjective take on this issue (that furthermore, is not supported by a range of credible and more importnatly, neutral, sources) it is highly flawed. For example, it has been proven that Bhuttos are not a sub-clan of the Arains, and one of the most glaring errors, is to categorise Qutubshahis as an Arain sub-clan; this is complete and utter nonsense, as the Qutubshahis are in fact, Awans (a fact recognised by all authorities on this subject), this particular clan being considered to be the most pre-eminent amonst that particular tribe - the name of this clan is also derived from the name of the putative ancestor that Awans claim patrilineal descent from, i.e. an individual who was actually called Qutub Shah (thus, the name of this clan is an eponym). Therefore, to try and link the name of this clan, to an individual named Qutub-ud-Din Aibak, is patently ridiculous and makes no sense whatsoever, but just demonstrates the desperate lengths to which members of the Arain tribe will go, in an attempt to justify the myth of an Arab origin (a claim that has been discredited on the basis of undenaible historical facts, and social factors, that have been discussed at length, and demonstrated through the use of a number of sources). It should also be noted that the claim that the Arains were never classified as a "martial race" by the British, due to a rebellion insitigated by members of this community, does not, in any way, stand up to intellectual scrutiny, simply because the British also fought TWO WARS against the Sikhs (which according to accounts, were very bloody affairs as well), due to which the Sikhs were forced to relinquish their kingdom in the Punjab - yet not only did the British permit and encourage Sikhs to enlist in their droves in the British Indian Army, and not only were the Sikhs classified as a "martial race", but the British also looked upon this community as being amongst the most prized recruits of all those it had categorised as "martial races." Anyway, why is there such desperation to try and even prove that the Arains deserved to be labelled a "martial race," when the whole notion of "martial races" is something that has come in for criticism by contemporary historians? As has been said before, please get rid of that chip on your shoulder, and just accept that for whatever reason (right or wrong), the British did not look upon the Arains as a martial race - period. Deal with it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.20.50 (talk) 22:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

WHO GIVES BRITISHES LICENCE TO MAKE OTHERS MARTIAL

i am not trying to change the minds of these britishes or u but i am telling u that arains hav all the guds of wat a martial tribe has , yadav tribe of india is also mentioned as non-martial ,yadavs are brave people and hav all guds of fighting ,do u know about yadavs and not tell me that they are rajputs because if it is in ur control u will make all the famous persons of the world rajput(rangars) , who gives the permission to these bloody britishes to make others martial or non-martial when they dont knows abt thier fathers , so stop making shit out here and dont opppse ur foolish ideas or thinkings to others on this fake site , sit amoung any islamic historiyan and ask from them the history of arains , i will accept thier single word wheather it support or not to arains ,i hav giv u the name of bhutto family leaders ,why r u avioding from this to verify from them —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.147 (talk) 19:56, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

ASADULLAH BHUTTO (ameer of jamiat islami sindh and member os arain associ)

i u hav guds then verify from asadullah bhutto sahib (ameer of jamiat islami sindh and member of arain asociation karachi —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.147 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

TAUQEERA FATIMA BHUTTO SAHIBA (MNA,PPP)

u can also verfy from her that bhuttos are arain .she is also from bhutto family and a close relitive of benazir bhutto she will tell u and dont make arguments with ur fake knowledge , wat kind of proof is constracted then this , i hav paste two paragharaphs one abt pir pagara sahib that he said that bhutto arain hai, and other is about shah abdul qadir ludhyanvi these two paragharaphs r from famous internation news pappers and u r joking that it is not a constractive , than i think that wat all bulshit u r telling is only constractve while rest of the world is fraud —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.147 (talk) 20:21, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

NADEEM IQBAL BHUTTO (MPA,PPP,KARACHI)

u can also verfy from nadeem bhutto sahib ,if these proof are not enough then contact me i will giv u more , and if u hav a little bit of sense then u will know that wat bhuttos are , otherwise i can that (kay tera kaan chita hi way (ur crow is white),think like a man not donkey ,here is my ph no u can contact me 0345-6502001 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.147 (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2010 (UTC)

RE: USER 59.103.90.147

Where on earth do you get the nerve to hurl accusations of the sort you have, against me? Let me begin by re-iterating that what you present as “evidence” is of no substance whatsoever. The newspaper you mention, isn’t “world famous” as you would like to believe, and the article you quoted, contains (as I have pointed out before) a debatable and subjective take on the pertinent issues being discussed, that are solely the views of one particular individual, whose academic qualifications are open to question, and who does not present a single credible and neutral source in support of his contention. Moreover, if you are capable of reading and comprehending the English language (which you clearly struggle with, given your woeful spelling and grammar, though your idiocy of greater concern), you will have seen that what this particular author has to say, is entirely negated by the example of the Sikhs I presented (and what I have to say, is a well-documented, historical fact, i.e. if the Arains were discounted as a “martial race” because members of this community organised rebellions against the British at the time of the Indian Mutiny, then the Sikhs should have been precluded from military service and not categorised as a “martial race” on the basis that the British fought two wars against this community. However, the reality is, the British prized Sikh recruits, and looked upon them as being amongst the finest of what they termed the “martial races” Read this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Sikh_War and this, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Anglo-Sikh_War and you shall hopefully be enlightened). Furthermore, I also demonstrated that the author of the article you quoted, is sorely mistaken, when he names Bhuttos and in particular, Qutubshahis, as being sub-clans of the Arain tribe – anyone with even a passing knowledge of the tribes and castes of the Punjab, would be incapable of making the mistake of claiming that the second of these groups is anything but an Awan clan (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1QmrSwFYe60C&printsec=frontcover&dq=castes+and+tribes+of+the+punjab&cd=1#v=onepage&q=qutbshahi&f=false ), and this just reinforces the point I made about the so-called evidence you presented, as being highly flawed and unreliable (and as stated earlier, it also underlines the desperate lengths members of the Arain community will go to, in order to propagate the myth of an Arab origin, to the extent that a so-called scholar, would refer to the most pre-eminent Awan clan of all, as being a sub-clan of the Arains, and then defying all logic, link the name of this clan – which is an eponym – with the name of Qutubuddin Aibak, and that too in connection to a laughable myth that Arains were originally soldiers who accompanied the Arab forces that invaded the Subcontinent). As for what you have you say about Pir Pagara, is it really so difficult for you to understand that this semi-literate individual is not an authority or specialist on this subject, and more importantly, what he has to say on this topic, has been disproven, and to be a mistake on his part? (Which isn’t surprising either, considering the hearsay the likes of you have created, that those like the aforementioned individual, readily believe). And exactly how old are you? Are really so immature, that you plead in the style of a child that I should get in touch with so-and-so who is known to you (allegedly), and who will support your ludicrous viewpoints? Why do I have to gain confirmation from any of the individuals you named, that the Bhuttos are anything but Rajputs, when Benazir Bhutto herself, categorically stated in her autobiography that she is descended from Rajputs, and her biographer and close friend, Shyam Bhatia went on record to state that Benazir took pride in her Rajput ancestry. Here, I’ll even reproduce the exact quote:

"But Pinky always took pride in her Rajput ancestry and said it was only during war that India and Pakistan hated each other. But in peace, they liked each other."

See: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/rssarticleshow/msid-3061556,prtpage-1.cms

So forgive me, but you know what, I’d rather give more credence to what Benazir stated herself in two autobiographies, as well as the remarks of someone with the credentials of Shyam Bhatia (whose friendship with Benazir covered a period of more than thirty years, stretching back to their time at Oxford) rather than the individuals you name, and the fairytales you’ve concocted. Further proof of the Bhuttos being Rajputs can be found here:

"Two main Rajput tribes of Sind are: the Samma, a branch of the Yadav Rajputs who inhabit the eastern and lower Sind and Bahawalpur; and the Sumra who, according to the 1907 edition of the Gazetteer are a branch of the Parwar Rajputs. Among others are the Bhuttos, Bhattis, Lakha, Sahetas, Lohanas, Mohano, Dahars, Indhar, Chachar, Dhareja, Rathors, Dakhan, Langah etc."

http://ppiusindh.org/hyderabad-sindh-district-of-sindh-pakistan.html

And the Wikipedia article on Sindhi Rajputs, not only includes mention of the Bhuttos, but also a short outline of their origins:

"Bhutto

Perhaps the most famous of the Sindh Rajputs, they are a clan of the Bhatti Rajputs, and as such are Chandravanshi. They are found in Larkana District, in a cluster of villages such as Mirpur Bhutto and Salar Bhutto north of Larkana city."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajputs

As for the issue of the “martial races” why do you have such a massive chip on your shoulder about this issue? Who cares whether or not the British considered Arains to be a “martial race,” when the theory itself has been discredited? And I am beginning to doubt your sanity as well now, when you ask inane questions such as who gave the British the right to classify particular castes and tribes as being “martial races.” Seriously, what planet do you live on? Regardless of whether or not the “martial race” theory was right or wrong, do you think the British needed to seek permission from others, in order to classify which groups should and shouldn’t be included in the “martial race” category? (And why did you feel the need to mention the Yadavs, when I previously stated that individuals belonging to communities not recognised as “martial races” by the British, have attained the highest ranks in the Indian and Pakistani armed forces?) Are you even more stupid than you have already proved, that you believe permission needs to be sought from others when formulating a theory, regardless of whether or not it carries weight? The British didn’t look upon the Arains as a “martial race” – get over it; it was their theory (so it is irrelevant if you believe the Arains deserve to be considered a “martial race”), and it is a theory that many contemporary historians consider to be untenable, so why are you getting so worked up over this matter? And since when did a theory, constitute fact?

The really interesting thing though, is that as much as you plead that the Arains meet all the credentials of a “martial race” and should have thus been recognised as such by the British, your tribe still doesn’t command any sort of significant presence in the Pakistani army:

“…Zia came from a community not heavily represented in the armed forces (the Arains from Punjab)…” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:ruoBy5dqz1MJ:www.workmall.com/wfb2001/pakistan/pakistan_history_zulfiqar_ali_bhutto_and_a_new_constitutional_system.html+%22Zia+came+from+a+community+not+heavily+represented+in+the+armed+forces+(the+Arains+from+Punjab)&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk)

“Ethnically, General Zia was from a line of Arains, who do not have much presence in the army, unlike Ayub Khan and Yahya Khan who were Pathans. Pathans are well represented in Pakistan’s armed forces.” (See http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:TBifkQ5dKv8J:yespakistan.com/people/past-presidents.asp+%22Ethnically,+General+Zia+was+from+a+line+of+Arains,+who+do+not+have+much+presence+in+the+army,&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=uk

And the following words are those of a Pakistani academic (not someone of Anglo-Saxon origin, a race you clearly despise):

"The army was an unusual career for an Arain youngster; the British had not regarded the community as one of India's martial races..." (Pakistan under Zia, 1977-1988, Shahid Javed Burki)

And how dare you accuse of anyone indulging in fraud or spreading misinformation! It is bad enough that the so-called evidence you produce is not only flimsy (to say the least), and does not stand up to scrutiny either, but you have also demonstrated that you are incapable of engaging in discussion and debate like a grown adult – so contrary to what you say, it is not me making a joke out of you, you have done a good enough job of that yourself – honestly, I ask you again, how old are you, and what is your level of education, that using the medium of this website to discuss the matter presently being debated, you've challenged me to phone you, and in the process, provided me with your number, in a public forum – do you realise the stupidity and potential consequences of your actions?

Who are you to speak of sense, when you quote Punjabi phrases that when translated into English, lose all meaning (not that your English makes much sense anyway. You can’t even prevent yourself from employing foul, abusive language in order to make your ridiculous assertions either, so you’ve proven you lack class as well). Who are you to speak to me about what constitutes academic scholarship or proper history, when you are so narrow-minded, you claim to only value the writings of Muslim historians? And when I have already stressed that there are historians belonging to Muslim backgrounds, who reject the relatively recent innovation of the Arain tribe ascribing Arab origins to itself – a phenomenon that incidentally occurred around the time the Arains came to wield influence amongst the Punjabi Muslim community as a result of consolidating its position in the legal profession during the latter stages of British rule in India (also coinciding with the formation of various Arain associations), something that has been remarked upon by expert commentators – your notions amount to nothing. How on earth can you say I am spreading “shit” on this discussion page, or that my ideas are foolish, when you take into account your rants and ramblings? Have you no shame? At least I have studied the history of the region I am discussing, at university, and have presented evidence that is credible, and made points that are cogent. You on the other hand, have indulged us all in myths, fairytales, half-truths, and have not presented even a shred of evidence that deserves to be considered seriously (thus, what you term as the “rest of the world” actually, in the main, considers what I have to say on this matter, to be consistent with the truth, or as close to the truth it is possible to get). You talk about fake knowledge, the same person who twice insisted Waqar Younis is an Arain on the basis that the area he hails from in South Punjab, is an Arain stronghold (which in itself is open to question), and then was shown up to be the idiot that he is, when I proved beyond doubt that Waqar is in fact, a Maitla Jat. You find it surprising that your contributions have been branded non-constructive? Are you serious? Consider the following: your paranoia regarding British historians and anthropologists being so comical, that you bring into question their parentage, the irony being as I pointed out, it was members of the Arain community itself that alluded to their Hindu origins, with the British simply, and accordingly, recording this when census records for the Punjab were compiled. Or did the following on the main page vis-a-vis this article, escape your attention?

“...the Arains of the Ghaggar valley say they were Rajputs living on the Panjnad near Multan...”

“The Sutlej Arains in Sirsa say they are, like the Arains of Lahore and Montgomery, connected by orign with the Hindu Kambohs.”

“... in Jullundur the Arains say they came from Sirsa, Rania, and Delhi and claim descent from Rai Jaj (grandson of Lau, founder of Lahore), who ruled Sirsa: that they were converted in the 12th century and migrated to the Jullundar Doab about 300 years ago. But the Bhuttas claim descent from Raja Bhutta, fifth in descent from Raja Karn and say they were forcibly converted even earlier - by Mahmud of Ghazni – and driven from Uch.”

The above is the most damming evidence of all, against any claims currently made by the Arain community to Arab descent. And in case I need to point it out to you again, the above highlights that your ancestors during the nineteenth century, were readily admitting to their Hindu origins – again, read the above.

Knowing what a paranoid and disingenuous fool you are, you’re going to claim that this is all in keeping with a conspiracy against your community, cooked up by the British – so, please do tell me what the reasons for this were, considering that other more rebellious communities (because this is going to be your first line of your cock-eyed argument) did not suffer a similar fate?

Unless you are truly are medically a moron (which I am beginning to believe is the case), how can you fail to see that your edits are non-constructive? Firstly, you accuse me of having an agenda that revolves around the promotion of Rajput tribes, when all I did was counter the disgusting filth you came out with regarding this community, and cited some facts regarding the code of chivalry it has traditionally adhered to, that also revolves around ancient martial traditions (as it is, I am not a Rajput anyway). And did it escape your attention that I also mentioned Pathans, Sikhs and Awans when exposing your stupidity in falsely asserting that the Rajputs only came to be classified as a “martial race” because, according to you, they “pimped” out their womenfolk to the Mughals, and later, the British? I asked you what about the three aforementioned groups, all of which were also categorised as “martial races” by the British? Did they also pimp their women? (You are beyond immature and stupid, aren’t you?). And you are such a hypocrite, that you complain about perceived slights against your community, yet indulge in the most offensive tirades against other communities (particularly those that are non-Muslim). Your line of reasoning is so skewered that you claim because my viewpoint differs from yours (as well as the fact I have exposed you for the ill-educated, paranoid, xenophobic fantasist you are), I must be of non-Pakistani origin, and have never visited Pakistan (both points being patently false). And above all, you are so deluded, you actually believe that there are communities residing in the Subcontinent, that are of “pure” Muslim blood (such a notion in itself being nonsensical), when I have proven that this is not only a fallacy, but impossible, even if one can locate communities that have been resident in the Subcontinent for a number of centuries and genuinely are able to trace their bloodlines to the Middle East, as the process of inter-marriage with the indigenous population is inevitable. More than this, when expressing your delusions, you have also exposed yourself as a bigot, by referring to Hindus and Sikhs as having “bad blood” (ironic considering your ancestors were Hindus, and this also applies to those claiming to be Sayyids etc, for reasons I have just mentioned), therefore, you simply are not an individual who can be taken seriously, and should desist from making anymore preposterous contributions as you are an embarrassment to your community as well. But knowing you, I would not be surprised if you are shameless enough to attempt to offer a retort to what I have to say, regurgitating the same claptrap you’ve forced others to endure. In short, you are certifiably an idiot.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.176.138 (talk) 05:39, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

BHUTTOS ARE 100% ARAINS

write complete sentence that benazir in bio graphy that " bhuttos are proberly from hindu rajput or from arab(arain) soldiers that conquer the sub-continent with Mohammad bin qasim ". here r some famous politicians of bhutto family u can verify from that bhuttos are arains . Asadullah Bhutto (ameer of jamiat islami sindh and member of arain association karachi ) , Tauqeera Fatima Bhutto sahiba(mna,ppp,nawabshah),Nadeem Iqbal Bhutto (mpa,ppp,karachi). i hav verify from them that bhuttos are arains. so dont bark here with ur fake knowledge , one more thing that i am arain from gujranwala punjab and i dont met with single arain in my whole life who claims to b rajput decent , alin shah and other english historiyan are the biggest mother fuckers who r reliating arains with rajputs pimps , these elglish histotiyans might dont know thier real fathers and making bulshit out here , arains are not clasified as martial race because they are not pimps like rajput(ranghars ), who lay down thiergirls firt under britishes and then under mughals , i think u people have listen abt rajputani joda bha who lay down under akber moughal by rajput pimps only to gain lands and to survive , thats the way rajputs beacam martial race and thanks god arains are not, i can say abt these rajputs that they are matial pimps , all muslims historiyan has verified that syeds,arains,awans,balochs,abbasis,alvis hav arab roots ,do u hav doubt abt famous arain , i bet u that bhutttos and wasim akram are 100% arains but i dont know abt fazil moh , wasim akram,waqar younus,and buttos are 100% arains , u r right in one thing that shoaib akhter is gujjar from rawalpinpindi while wasim akram is arain from lahore and waqar is also arain from burewala , i want to clerify that arains hav nothing to do with rajputs , juts,gujjars, kambohs . do try to mix bad blood of hindu rajputs and sikh jutts in pur muslim arains , —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.34 (talk) 21:20, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

BHUTTOS ARE NOT ARAINS

Firstly, the user above has proved his/her ignorance beyond all doubt, through the use of such disgusting language. Secondly, there is not a single line in either of Benazir Bhutto’s autobiographies, where she makes any reference whatsoever to her ancestors being descended from Arains – however, plenty of sources have been furnished through this discussion page, that not only directly quote her making reference to her Rajput roots, but also others close to her, who underline the pride she took in her Rajput lineage (and your assertion that any reference made to soldiers accompanying the forces of Muhammad bin Qasim, is an oblique reference to the Arain tribe, is beyond foolish). Thirdly, the Bhuttos are widely recognised as a well-established Sindhi Rajput tribe, which traces its origins to the Bhatti Rajputs; thus for you to claim that others are spreading lies vis-a-vis this topic, is quite frankly, farcical. Fourthly, before launching your foul-mouthed tirade against what you term as “English historians,” consider the fact that it wasn’t those British historians, anthropologists etc (who have earned your ire, and whose parentage you idiotically question) that concocted some grand fraud regarding the Arains not being of Arab origin, but the Arain community itself, during the nineteenth century for example, that claimed to be descended from a variety of Hindu groups, and as such, note was made of this (a fact borne out by census records compiled during the era of the British Raj. In fact, these census records also point to Hindu and Sikh sections of the Arain tribe, further exposing the folly of attempting to assign an Arab origin to this community). Fifthly, your claims regarding why the Arains were not classified as a “martial race” are not only extremely immature and stupid (not to mention, comically paranoid), but highly offensive to those of Rajput origin, a community that even before the advent of Mughal or British rule in the Subcontinent, was famed for its martial traditions, and proudly adhering to a code that (amongst other virtues) stressed chivalry and courage. And what about non-Rajput communities such as the Pathans, Sikhs, and Awans, who were also recognised as “martial races” by the British? Did they too “pimp” out their womenfolk to the British, in order to be categorised as such? (I trust I have exposed your idiocy in this regard). Sixthly, how on earth can you make blanket statements about the communities you mention, being recognised by all Muslim historians as being of Arab origin? If you have actually read extensively on the history of the Sayyids, Awans etc, you will discover that there are a number of historians of Muslim origin, who question the claim of these groups to Arab descent. Not only this, but the same historians also highlight that the claim of the Arain community to Arab origins, is a relatively recent innovation, that came about when a significant number of those belonging to this community, made great strides in areas such the legal profession during the latter stages of British rule in India (i.e. the twentieth century), and thus started to gain some influence amongst the Punjabi Muslim community – however for the reasons already mentioned, these claims have never been taken seriously. Moreover, though there has always been debate surrounding the claim to Arab origin by tribes such as the Sayyids, Awans etc, these groups, stretching back to the time census records were first compiled in the regions they predominate, have always been recognised as being exclusively Muslim, something that does not apply to the Arain community (and hence is the major stumbling block to overcome for members of this community, when attempting to claim an Arab origin). Seventhly, you say you don’t know about the origins of Fazal Mahmood – well, for your information, he was a Punjabi Pathan. As for Wasim Akram, his origins have long been debated on the Net. However, you are sorely mistaken regarding Waqar Younis – he actually happens to be a Maitla Jat from Burewala (this further underlines you have no clue what you’re talking about). Lastly, that you have made some absurd claims is one thing, but when you talk about Hindus and Sikhs having bad blood, you also expose yourself as a bigot, which is why it is all the more difficult to take you seriously. And I hate to burst your bubble, but even those whose belong to Muslim families that have long been settled in the Subcontinent, and can genuinely trace their origins to the Middle East, have a dose of Hindu blood coursing through their veins, because the process of inter-marriage with indigenous communities is an inevitable and natural process that takes place over a period of centuries, amongst settler communities.

I suggest you get rid of the chip on your shoulder, and in future, desist, from producing such a non-constructive, nonsensical and childish rant that is littered with lies.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.237.251 (talk) 04:04, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

ARAINS ARE THE REAL MARTIAL RACE

there is list of arains which shows that what guds arain hav for miltry purposes like adina beg , captan aibak arain ,gernal zia-ul-haq which ruled pak the most for 11 years with iron hansds ,that shows the braveness and couagre of arains , one thing which is not in arains is that they are not pimps like rajputs or sikh jutts , joda bhai a rajputni was laid down under moughals by rajputs only to gain lands and for thier lifes , thats real rajput the pimps —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.8 (talk) 11:23, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

RE: PROOF THAT BHUTTOS ARE ARAINS

Listen, if you don't learn to conduct yourself, with class, grace, and some semblance of dignity, I will have no hesitation in reporting you for abuse (your previous foul-mouted tirade is for all to see, above). Your approach is not only non-constructive, but also flouts Wiki regulations. For your information, not only am I of Pakistani origin, and not only have I visited Pakistan, I have also studied the history and politics of the region on an in-depth basis, at university. Your mode of expression on the other hand, along with your woeful grammar, speaks volumes about your level of education. And whereas I have presented credible sources, and undeniable facts to back up each of the points I've made, you continue to peddle the same childish nonsense. I am not going to regurgitate all that I have covered previously, save to say that Pir Pagaro's words have been disporoved before. Moreover, I am also going to expose you for the idiot you truly are, while in the process highlighting just how ironic it is that you accuse others of spreading misinformation, when I deal with the topic of Waqar Younis (below), an individual I already proved is not an Arain, yet you persist with this ludicrous claim (in keeping with your approach to this subject). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.20.50 (talk) 23:09, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

WASIM AND WAQAR ARE ALSO ARAINS

i add to ur pover knowledge that wasim is arain from lahore ,his brother mian naeem akram is a famous businessman of lah and member of arain association lah, wasim akram also hav attend many arain convensions while waqar is arain from burewala the whole chak of waqar is of arains including waqar —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.103.90.8 (talk) 10:45, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

RE: WASIM AND WAQAR

It has already been pointed out that Wasim Akram's tribal affiliations are a matter of much debate on the Net, but when it comes to Waqar Younis, this individual is irrefutably a JatT (something I have already pointed out), i.e. he is an Arain, as you persist in claiming. Firstly, please refer to his profile on Cricinfo: ARAIN IS ALSO CALLED AS JATTS.....

http://www.cricinfo.com/pakistan/content/player/43543.html

Do you notice that his surname is "Maitla?" Now refer to the Wiki article about Maitlas:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maitla

Please note that the article categorically states that the Maitlas are a sub-clan of Jats. So quite frankly, it makes no difference if Burewala is or isn't a stronghold of the Arains, the fact is, Waqar Younis is not a member of your tribe. Now give it up, because you already have very little credibility left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.20.50 (talk) 23:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)

Arain page dispute April 2010

First Paragrah

Caste

Arain are considered a tribe or baradari or qaum in Pakistan. They intermarry with other Muslims. In general, the Muslim Arains do not follow the rigid caste rule associated with Hindus and Sikhs.

The Arain, is an agricultural community settled mainly in Punjab region of Pakistan and India, with significant numbers also in Sindh, Pakistan. Arain are cosidered a tribe in Pakistan while a caste in India.

Conversion to Islam

The Arains, as other Muslims, were mostlt converted by Sufis.

The Arain tribe started converting to Islam due to Sufi misssionaries, whose shrines dot the landscape, beginning with the conquest of Indus Valley from Multan to Debal by Muhammad bin Qasim in 711 AD.

AlphaGamma1991 (talk) 19:24, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

Need For DNA Test

The best research would be a Y chromosome DNA test of Arain males from different districts of pakistan and then compare with other pakistani populations as well as arab and persian populations. The result will then close the chapters of mystery about the origin of Arians in Pakistan. As for as Blood group tests are concerned they are useless.

Yes that will certainly help putting a lot of mysteries to rest. Indians and Pakistanis have the same Y-chromosome haplogroup. We have the same genetic sequence and the same genetic marker (namely: M124). We have the same DNA molecule, the same DNA sequence. It also tells that we all moved 25000 years ago from central asia. Is it any close to the claims of many Indians to have emigrated from other parts of the world and not central asia alone? There is a need to conduct a serious study and not just rely on those fanciful stories narrated by the British colonial writers. —Preceding mmza comment added by Mmza (talk • contribs) 20:01, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

My Cousin, an Arain on both counts, got his Geneology from National Geographic and it turned out that he and his ancestors belong to J1b haplogroup. This group is prevalent in Europe, middle east especially Lebenon, Syria and Turkey. It has only arrived indus valley in the recent past. I leave it to the intellectuals to make conclusions.FirstCanadian (talk) 00:08, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It is good idea to study DNA of Arains. Actually there are two types of Arains in India and Pakistan. They are thought to be the generations of two Arain brothers. Which are Sirsewal Arains & Multani Arains. One Sersewal Arain brother married local Indian (It was the time when Arains newely entered in India). And further generations of Sersewal Arains also continued to mix in local Indians. The Multani Arains did not married in local Indians. They remain isolated from other local Indians regarding Marriage. Both i.e, Sersewaly Arains and Multani Arains moved to other districts of India and Pakistan. E.g, We are from Ambala India. Many centuries ago our forefathers moved from Multan to Ambala latter we moved from Ambala India to Pakistan in 1947 and then to Germany) but we still are know as Multani Arains. Our forefathers never married even with Sersewals Arains but now trend has been changed because the world has entered in the modern age. But it is necessary to study the DNA of Multani Arains (which are now also present in other districts of India and Pakistan)and the DNA of the Areeha local community. In this way this can be confirmed that the origion of Arains is Areeha to solve the mystery of origion of Arains . And it can be proved that the Arains are Arab descents and came with Muhammad bin Qasim (Arabic: محمد بن قاسم‎) in 711 AD from Areeha (which in Arabic is written as أريحا & in English is known as Jericho). I also think blood group is not enough proof. At the end I want to add I personally love humanity regardless of religion and origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umar505 (talk • contribs) 10:06, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Re: Current Edit

The article has been partly reverted to an earlier edit, due to Satbir Singh’s ridiculous and muddled take on this topic, based on his biased and erroneous assertions, and misinterpretation of source material that has been inconsistently applied. Current edit supports the views of the majority of Wikipedians who have debated, discussed and dealt with this article, as well as being backed by reliable sources. Please note that besides Satbir Singh’s contributions (often characteristically messy and prejudiced) being ridiculed - with good reason - by other Wikipedians, he has also been banned indefinitely from editing, thus underlining what an unreliable authority he is. Relevant information from previous edit has been incorporated into the current edit. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.69.191 (talk) 19:05, 22 November 2009 (UTC)

According wikipedia Mian Family of Baghbanpura is from Arain Tribe.This family tree tell you more about the origin of arain.This would also help us to understand piont of view of mughal kings about Arain who awarded them title of Mian and Nawabs.I ask you to get reference about arian last 1000 years rather than just form last 200 years which only give brief information about Arian. According to wikipedia artical Gurki family is also from Arain Tribe is also famous family in politics. If both families are from arian tribe then their names should be on this article about Arain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.132.97.132 (talk) 04:26, 7 March 2010 (UTC)

Muhammad Hanif Ramay (1930–2006) was an internationally renowned intellectual, journalist and former Governor and Chief Minister of Punjab, and he was among the founding fathers of the Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP).Born near Sheikhupura in 1930, in an Arain agriculturist family. Could you put his name on Arain Article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.21.146.27 (talk) 01:14, 5 April 2010 (UTC) My question here is who deleted famous arian Section.Could he/she tells us about his/her parents and family background.He/she doesnot want to see successful and famous arian but I want to tell you that you would have to live in the world where you have been seeing and will see highly successful and famous Arains. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.132.97.132 (talk) 03:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)