Talk:Anthroposophy/Archive 8

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Request for comment about whether Anthroposophy has "Applications" or "Claimed/purported applications"

Should practical areas of work anthroposophists have founded be termed "applications" or "claimed/purported applications"? Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 22:11, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

In favor of "Applications" or "Practical applications"

There are numerous reliable sources that state that Waldorf education, biodynamic agriculture, eurythmy, and other fields of work founded by anthroposophists are "practical applications" of anthroposophy. There have been no reliable sources given that suggest these are not "practical applications". Adding the term "claimed" or "purported" seems to introduce editorial bias. Editors have been persistent in adding these terms, however, to the section title in the article. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 22:19, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

• Strong support a simple "Applications" with no potentially judgmental labelling, from both grammar and WP:WEIGHT of being the most frequent phrasing. It simply is an application when something is being used for some purpose, whether or not that others think that is good or proven effective. "Practical applications" seems a distant second because of the much lesser WP:WEIGHT of use at least by Google count, and the potential confusion between multiple meanings of "Practical"

(1 - as in an action versus just theorizing and speculation;

(2 - as manifested in practice or repetition for a process or machine; or

(3 - as capable or being used, useful or effective

Whether or not one thinks it works, when someone is using it for something that is "applying" it. Whether it is "practical application" is context-dependent.

"Claimed" applications should not be used as simply a false description and comes off as a bit of untrustworthy editorializing. People are using X in the field of Y or to do Y -- the fact of applying it for attempted purposes is not in doubt, is it? Also, that phrase is not showing any WP:WEIGHT of use at all, at least it is not in Google. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 04:54, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

I think the idea of saying "Purported applications" is just a category error. You can apply something which does not work, in total good faith - for example, I believe the evidence is that dowsing is totally without foundation, yet it was used probably for centuries to determine the best [according to the wisdom of the time] location for a well. To talk of "purported applications of dowsing" would suggest that modern supporters were claiming (without evidence) that dowsing was used in antiquity for choosing well locations. Imaginatorium (talk) 06:11, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

RS for "practical applications"

• Hammer, The Occult World, p. 350: "There are numerous practical applications, including Waldorf pedagogy, eurythmy...and biodynamic farming....there is a substantial Anthroposophical visual and material culture, manifested in architecture, in mystery plays, even in commercial products..."
• Gilhus, Western Esotericism in Scandinavia, p. 54. "The practical applications of Anthroposophy have been far more significant...The most important fruits of the Anthroposophical tree are the Waldorf schools...the Camphill movement...biodynamic agriculture and banking..."
• Jones, "Capitalism and the Environment," in Evolutions of Capitalism, p. 201. "the application of Steiner's ideas...biodynamic agriculture...new businesses in industries as diverse as food and finance...socially progressive...social movements...this was accompanied by shifts within the movement itself towards a greater focus on developing practical applications of the philosophy...the first Anthroposphical bank was launched..."
• McKanan, Eco-Alchemy: Anthroposophy and the History and Future of Environmentalism, University of California Press, pp. 70-110. "Anthroposophical initiatives--farms, schools, intentional communities--began to supplant the society as the public face of anthroposophy." McKanan refers to these and other initiatives as "practical anthroposophy," mentioning Waldorf schools, biodynamic farming, Camphill communities. "If the impulse to move quickly to the practical sphere has been part of anthroposophy from the beginning, it has become the dominant feature since 1970....This practical ethos characterizes anthroposophical initiatives founded in 1970 and thereafter...Waldorf school...biodynamic farm, a center for adult education and Waldorf teacher training, a publishing house, an art school, a theater, a research center on the threefold society, and another research center devoted to 'farmscape ecology'." He goes on to mention a "center for anthroposophical water work...the Water Research Institute".
• Svetoslava Toncheva, Out of the New Spirituality of the Twentieth Century p. 125
• Handbook of Nordic New Religions, p. 57: "practical manifestations" of anthroposophy include Waldorf schools, anthroposophical medicine, biodynamic agriculture, anthroposophic architecture, and the Christian Community. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 22:23, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

In favor of "Claimed applications" or "Purported applications"

• I don't understand what the fuss is about. On one hand, these are quite literally applying Anthroposophy to real-world problems. On the other hand, all such applications are mainly pseudoscientific, pseudoscholarly, or bogus, according to the reality-based community. E.g. Dr. Scott Wayne Infante applied his knowledge of faith healing (he seems to be a faith healer) to writing A Systematic Review of the Psychological, Physiological, & Spiritual Effects of Pornography on Males. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:48, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

  I'm confused. You say that these are literally applications of anthroposophy. So why are you in favor of adding "claimed" or "purported"?

  I have no idea what faith healing has to do with any of this. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 02:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

  Dr. Infante applied faith healing to porn, while the reality-based community says faith healing is bogus. tgeorgescu (talk) 04:04, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

  tgeorgescu - please clarify - for the RFC question on anthroposophy, why are you posting at the area in favor of adding "claimed" or "purported" when your text indicates otherwise at “these are quite literally applying Anthroposophy to real-world problems” ? Cheers Markbassett (talk) 06:59, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

  @Markbassett: What I meant is that the claims of both sides are true. tgeorgescu (talk) 07:01, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

• the point is Anthroposophy is fringe, that needs to be clear, 'Practical applications' makes it sound like can actually apply nonsense. That said i really don't care how this is made clear to the reader just 'applications' with a with a section lead feels cumbersome—blindlynx 14:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

  Should the way reliable sources describe these matters not have precedence, though? Essentially every one of these uses the term 'practical applications' without weird qualifications. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 15:58, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

  No. Just because you think these necessary qualifications are "weird", does not make it so. See my previous response which has already answered this issue, here. Thanks. - Roxy the dog 16:33, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

  Why not go with the wording used by reliable sources? I have seen no response to this question. Butterfly or Chuang Tzu? (talk) 02:00, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  It's the simplest way to convey to the reader that these things aren't grounded in reality—blindlynx 02:53, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

  blindlynx - please provide examples RS that also felt so and used either of these exact phrases. WP:MOSHEAD indicates such a non-neutral section WP:POVNAME would be when the prevalence is so common as to override concerns of appearing to favor a side - and my Google did not find use of those phrasings. FWIW, I think conveying points would be better done in the text than the section title anyway, as that allows greater length and showing the supporting source cites. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 07:49, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

  like I've said before, I have no problem with conveying it in the section, this just felt easier. I still oppose the use of the term 'practical' though—blindlynx 14:17, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Edit warring

Some psychiatrists believe that Gurus are unmedicated mild schizophrenics in a constant psychosis, I can also say the same exact thing here. You shout words that are true, but again, it has little to do with the article, and the situation here. Fadix 18:27, 14 September 2005 (UTC)

Price, John S; Stevens, Anthony (1998). "The Human Male Socialization Strategy Set". Evolution and Human Behavior. 19 (1). Elsevier BV: 57–70. doi:10.1016/s1090-5138(97)00105-0. ISSN 1090-5138. Many studies of cults and revitalization movements have noted that the leaders are susceptible both to auditory hallucinations and sudden changes in beliefs. The schizotype, we suggest, is someone who has the capacity to shed the commonly held and socially determined world view of his natal group, and to create a unique and arbitrary world view of his own, into which he may indoctrinate others and become a prophet, or fail to indoctrinate others and become a psychotic patient.

My point: anthroposophy is a delusional belief system of a crazy guru.

Of course Rudolf Steiner heard voices speaking in his head, he called it the Siddhi of "inspiration". So, now when you hear anthroposophists talking about the paranormal ability of "inspiration" you know what they mean. It means that they hear voices talking in their head. Of course, they usually follow a rule of "don't ask, don't tell" (i.e. they keep mum about their own paranormal abilities), but that's what they mean by it. I'm in fact surprised that many people don't know what they mean by it, since it is anthroposophy 101. It is from the books actually written by him, not from stenographer conferences which may include mistakes. (Most of his books are based upon written notes taken during his speeches.) tgeorgescu (talk) 01:56, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Epistemology, Ontology etc

Looking for reasons we can't add and cite this academic article among others, as an example? This can't in any way reasonably be considered 'whitewashing' right..

https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y SamwiseGSix (talk) 22:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

If you remove the statement that Anthroposophy is pseudoscience, stated in the voice of Wikipedia, WP:AE is just around the corner. tgeorgescu (talk) 22:44, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm interesting - doesn't this account better demonstrate a neutral point of view though, as there are many academics recognizing the many anti-racist statements (essentially almost world leading, right, who was more progressive in this area? even P. Staudenmeier declines to name names, right) along with the extensive/complex ontology, epistemology etc:

Anthroposophy includes roots in German idealist and empiricist philosophy, mysticism of the era, and according to scholarly critics pseudoscience including racist pseudoscience. Critics and proponents alike acknowledge his many anti-racist statements, often far ahead of his contemporaries and predecessors still commonly cited today. Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded.

I'm searching the link you posted for 'Psiram' but am not seeing any results in it - given much of his language is not appropriate by today's standards but overall his many anti-racist statements and views distinguish him from contemporaries like W. Wilson, F. Engels and K. Marx if you check their quotes..

This article is a bit dated but does at least showcase much of his anti-racist language and outlook:

https://waldorfanswers.org/ARacistMyth.htm SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Also https://waldorfanswers.org/RSAgainstAnti-Semitism.htm SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:16, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Do I have to spell it out for you?

"It certainly cannot be denied that Jewry today still behaves as a closed totality, and as such it has frequently intervened in the development of our current state of affairs in a way that is anything but favorable to European ideas of culture. But Jewry itself has long since outlived its time; it has no more justification within the modern life of peoples, and the fact that it continues to exist is a mistake of world history whose consequences are unavoidable. We do not mean the forms of the Jewish religion alone, but above all the spirit of Jewry, the Jewish way of thinking." (Steiner, Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Literatur p. 152)

"Thus the greatest tragedy of this 20th century [World War I] has come from what the Jews are also striving for. And one can say that since everything the Jews have done can now be done consciously by all people, the best thing that the Jews could do would be to disappear into the rest of humankind, to blend in with the rest of humankind, so that Jewry as a people would simply cease to exist. That is what would be ideal. This ideal is still opposed, even today, by many Jewish habits - and above all by the hatred of other people. That is what must be overcome." (Steiner, Die Geschichte der Menschheit und die Weltanschauungen der Kulturvölker p. 189)

Das Judentum als solches hat sich aber längst ausgelebt, hat keine Berechtigung des modernen Völkerlebens, und daß es sich dennoch erhalten hat, ist ein Fehler der Weltgeschichte, dessen Folgen nicht ausbleiben konnten. Wir meinen hier nicht die Formen der jüdischen Religion alleine, wir meinen vorzüglich den Geist des Judentums, die jüdische Denkweise. "Gesammelte Aufsätze zur Literatur " GA 32, p. 152 f.

Judaism as such is long lived out, has no entitlement of modern peoples' lives, and that it persists nevertheless is an error in world history which was bound to have inevitable consequences. We do not mean Jewish religion only, we especially mean the character of Judaism, the Jewish way of thinking.

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

He is certainly wrong there, but was also a leading voice in condemning popular antisemetism of his time:

Already in the beginning of the 1880's, Steiner condemned one of the most profiled representatives of anti-Semitism in Germany, the socialist Eugen Dühring. Dühring argued in publications for a violent final solution of the "Jewish question". Steiner described Dühring's anti-Semitism as "barbarian and anti-cultural" and condemned "racial struggle" as "the most repulsive form of party struggle".

In the 1890s' Steiner vehemently argued against the "outrageous excesses of the anti-Semites" and condemned the "anti-Semitic brutes" as enemies of the human rights. As a convinced liberal, whose position coincided with that of liberal Jewry (reform Jewry), he actively supported the integration and full legal and social status of the Jews in Europe.

In 1888 he wrote: "The Jews need Europe and Europe needs the Jews" (2). Against the anti-Semitic propaganda of hatred, he set his ideal: "One should only value mutual actions between individuals. It is completely uninteresting if one is a Jew or a German ... That is so simple, that one almost is stupid saying it. How stupid does one then not have to be to say the opposite."

ANTISEMITISM IS THE OPPOSITE OF A SOUND WAY OF THINKING

In 1900 Steiner described anti-Semitism as a "derision of every cultural achievement" of modern time, as "an expression of spiritual inferiority", as a "sign of triteness" and as "the opposite of a sound way of thinking".

In a series of articles, that he wrote in 1901 for the Berlin "Association against anti-Semitism", he argued against the "Germanen" myth of the German racists and their "senseless anti-Semitic chatter". He compared the special legislation against the Jews in European countries with "statutes of slavery". Anyone who believes in the ideas of the human rights, must say to himself: "Anti-Semitism is an insult to all beliefs in ideas. Most of all it is an insult against the idea that humanity stands higher than any specific form (tribe, race, people) in which it expresses itself" (3).

Steiner's clear criticism of anti-Semitism and racism runs through his complete life's work. It is based on the philosophical foundation of anthroposophy, the "ethical individualism", that Steiner conceived already in the 1890s'. Its central concept is that of the self determining individual and its emancipation from the thought- and life forms that want to reduce man to an expression of racial and ethnical peculiarities. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:21, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Do you want to check Karl Marx's quotes on Judaism by comparison? On race? They are quite horrific.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:22, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Who was a better or more progressive thinker on race for his time? Even P. Staudenmeier declines to name names right SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:23, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

As I have stated repeatedly: his statements are a mixed bag. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:25, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

His overall goal, hope and vision is for humanity to intermarry and for racial and religious differences to fall away and become meaningless right, and he was focused on a 'Philosophy of Freedom' so therefore there is not supposed to be any kind of forced assimilation of any kind, but rather that humanity chooses to intermarry and become as one freely essentially

Yes he definitely has some statements that should be rejected by our far advanced perspectives and outlook today, but to flatly label him racist? This seems very unfair, and potentially devastating in these fast changing times SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

This to me with the citations feels much more fair, overall:

Anthroposophy includes roots in German idealist and empiricist philosophy, mysticism of the era, and according to scholarly critics pseudoscience including racist pseudoscience. Critics and proponents alike acknowledge his many anti-racist statements, often far ahead of his contemporaries and predecessors still commonly cited today. Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:31, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

About potentially devastating: as I told you, Wikipedia is not for positing my own opinions, but for positing the opinions of WP:RS. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:33, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

So it sounds like you are ok with me adding this sentence below, right?

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:38, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

but it's this proposed section "..has roots in German idealist and empiricist philosophy, mysticism of the era, and according to scholarly critics pseudoscience including racist pseudoscience." that you're objecting to at this point? SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:39, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. Like: there are elves, fairies, sylphs, and gnomes who are in control of the events from the natural world? Don't make me laugh! tgeorgescu (talk) 23:45, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Hehe one can always take the best and leave the rest as the saying goes :) So scientifically for example we can see that Waldorf pedagogy is on quite strong epistemological ground, while much of Steiner's philosophical ontology eg commentary on Hegal, Marx Nietzche et al is still quite advanced even for our time today.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

So the Wiki article can still use the tone of largely pseudoscience etc, but there can be some limited links to citations demonstrating some of the materially scientifically datapoints, if that makes sense SamwiseGSix (talk) 23:50, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

"Mysticism is the metaphysics of idiots." — Theodore Adorno. Or: "Occultism is the metaphysic of dunces." tgeorgescu (talk) 23:54, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

Much of the materialism there essentially just stems from Karl Marx's inversion of Hegel's dialectic into materialism eg 'dialectic materialism' - a pretty significant set of assumptions.. Can you really assume that one day material science will be able to present with full confidence a fully comprehensive model of the big bang, for example? Plenty of highly cited scholars allow for the possibility of there being some deeper mysteries to the universe, questions of why, the ontology etc etc.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:00, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

So, can I start by adding this with the citations, or do you think we should consider requesting a third opinion? Why or why not?

'Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded.' SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:02, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

(Regarding metaphysics, Steiner wrote more on Aquinas and Aristotle with deepest appreciation than almost anyone hm) SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

This is a hardcore WP:MAINSTREAM encyclopedia. If you behave like it is The Tooth Fairy Fan Club, you have zero chances of success. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:15, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hehe, nice - so would you put Aquinas in the tooth fairy club on metaphysics? https://isidore.co/aquinas/english/Metaphysics.htm SamwiseGSix (talk) 00:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

"Angry gnomes produce quarrels between schoolchildren, so let's blame the janitor!"—do you call that ontology/epistemology? Ha, ha, ha!

Teachers who seriously claim that are full-blown delusional. You can have more hope for a crack addict or for a heroin junkie. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:51, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

I've read your update on my talk page - the guidelines here state to be civil and welcome newcomers, perhaps you could explain how I might be blocked for responding to your comments here? We do seem to need a third opinion here, Thomas Aquinas on spiritual beings: https://www.abebooks.com/Saint-Thomas-Aquinas-Spiritual-Creatures-Marquette/30821880158/bd SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:06, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Whatever Aquinas believed, that's no excuse for passing "Angry gnomes produce quarrels between schoolchildren, so let's blame the janitor!" for rationality. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Can you show me where you found that quote? So a random teacher makes a silly comment, that's obviously not publishable content - the link below on the other hand appears to be a pretty academic overview of the measurable Waldorf epistemology, thus the 3000 schools in most major cities worldwide, etc

https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:13, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not about a random teacher makes a silly comment. It is established practice in Waldorf schools. Magister dixit! https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/04/my-waldorf-student-son-believes-in-gnomes-and-thats-fine-with-me/274521/

"Steiner schools, or Waldorf schools as they are known in the USA, are based upon the ideas of a very intelligent but quite mad Austrian called Rudolf Steiner. His educational techniques were devised not empirically, that is to say by observation and experiment, but were learned clairvoyantly from, among others, the spirits of dead Atlanteans. Call me Mr. Conventional Stick- in- the-Mud, but this has never served to recommend his educational philosophy to me." http://homeeducationheretic.blogspot.com/2009/10/here-come-gnomes.html tgeorgescu (talk) 01:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hehe yes, funny right - though plenty of prominent tech execs have send their kids to Waldorf school as an example, among other fields: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:25, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

For further insight on metaphysics, one can refer back to Aquinas.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:26, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Stop peddling Aquinas if you do not want a level 4 warning. WP:NOTAFORUM. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:28, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Feeling confused, the oft-cited scholar relates to the relevant subjects in question on this article's talk page and is relevant to the article right, can you help me understand which policy is not being properly followed by the newcomer here? SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:41, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Aquinas has written absolutely nothing about Rudolf Steiner and/or Anthroposophy. So citing Aquinas in this article is sheer WP:OR.

Anyway, my point is: to those from the reality-based community his epistemology (talking to the spirits of dead Atlanteans) and ontology (elves, fairies, sylphs, gnomes) are ludicrous and farcical. We have a policy thereupon: WP:GEVAL. And the guideline WP:FRINGE.

"If you talk to God, you are praying; If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia. If the dead talk to you, you are a spiritualist; If you talk to the dead, you are a schizophrenic." Thomas Szasz. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:02, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm, well it appears prominent figures and scholars like Owen Barfield et al have drawn deep comparisons and ties between Steiner and Aquinas - as for the Szaz quote, he appears to be drawing quite deeply on Freud, Beck and co there right

Default existentialism of the 30's, with a dash of Stoicism added on in the 60s there perhaps? ;) SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:07, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

This talk page is WP:NOTAFORUM for discussing existentialism, Stoicism, materialism, and so on. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:08, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Well, ontology and epistemology are prominent branches in the field of philosophy right, which do underpin many of the questions and concerns which seem to be rising in regards to the article, and are related to the philosophy of science and demarcation etc hm

In other words, they do appear quite related to the seeking of additional scientific and academic citations to improve the article here, to help facilitate a more balanced NPOV per the community standard hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:17, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Here at Wikipedia WP:NPOV entails WP:PSCI, WP:GEVAL, and WP:FRINGE. E.g. the Rose Journal does not pass WP:FRIND. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:20, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so how about this sentence and citations then? SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:27, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

The Rose Journal is uncitable. My two cents are that the other references are not much better. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:29, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok removed, so how about I add this sentence w/ citations in then?

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:40, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Verifiability#Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion: even if it is WP:V in WP:RS, it should not be included if it runs afoul of WP:GEVAL, WP:PSCI, or WP:FRINGE. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:43, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

@Mosesheron: What difference do you see to Smith and Mormonism? A man claims he has had revelations from God, presents a new scripture he says comes from God, starts a new religion that claims to be a restoration, not new. It sure seems very similar. The more serious problem in your arguments above is that you continously imply we should find some middle road between faith and scholarship. We should not, as that would be the opposite of WP:NPOV. I know many people misunderstand NPOV and think it's about meeting halfway. It is not; it's about representing the most reliable sources as accurately as possible. Jeppiz (talk) 09:52, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 02:50, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm, so the qualification that mainstream science views much of Anthroposophy to be pseudoscientific, but that aspects of its ontology and epistemology particularly as applied in philosophy, and education have been academically and scientifically studied and noted? This would seem to be a more granular approach to NPOV - not a meeting in the middle, but a leading with the qualifier, and then at least an acknowledgement of some of the (pretty extensive and notable) academic literature that scientifically outlines the benefits in applying the epistemology etc SamwiseGSix (talk) 02:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Again, we go for WP:BESTSOURCES. We do not go for sources which fail WP:FRIND. tgeorgescu (talk) 02:56, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes of course, so far those sources seem quite independent - getting a bit late here so going to need to get to bed, certainly curious to see what you guys think and come up with though SamwiseGSix (talk) 03:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Dispute resolution won't do any good. The feedback you've gotten so far is the exact same kind of feedback that you would get in Wikipedia's dispute resolution systems. To simplify it somewhat, Wikipedia reflects the kind of scholarship that you find at leading secular universities, such as those mentioned at WP:CHOPSY: the kinds of things you would find taught at Cambridge, Harvard, Princeton, the Sorbonne, and/or Yale. If a view is considered fringe in those kinds of circles, you can bet that it will be considered fringe at Wikipedia. Now, that may not seem fair, especially if you believe the CHOPSY outlook is wrong. But that is the way Wikipedia has been since its inception, and it would be very unlikely if you could talk the Wikipedia community out of the approach that they've used since the beginning. As William Dever put it in "What Remains of the House that Albright Built?', "the overwhelming scholarly consensus today is that Moses is a mythical figure." That's from William Dever, who is on the conservative side of much of the debate currently going on within mainstream biblical studies. The great majority of mainstream scholars have abandoned the idea of Moses as a historical figure. Alephb (talk) 00:10, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

And Steiner's talks about something like AI are not "prophecy", but science-fiction. We do not call Jules Verne a prophet. Morals: in a WP:MAINSTREAM encyclopedia Steiner could be a genial SciFi author, but certainly not a prophet. E.g. in his "prophecy" about the mad cow disease, he blamed urates, when in reality a virus was the cause of the disease. If he had supernatural insight, he would not have made such a gross confusion.

Why are Waldorf schools better schools? Any school which can afford to cherrypick its students can do much better than average.

And if you are here to deny atomic theory in the name of Goethean science: go away, don't waste out our time with such nonsense.

Wikipedia is not an advertising billboard. Just because members of the MGTOW community don't like this article doesn't mean it's biased. Wikipedia is designed to be written from a neutral point of view, not a promotional point of view. In the case of fringe opinions, such as MGTOW, Flat Earth Society, etc., the proponents of such opinions are as a rule never satisfied with the consensus version of the article. That doesn't mean Wikipedia should completely avoid covering such topics. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 03:12, 31 December 2015 (UTC)

Quoted by tgeorgescu (talk) 13:55, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

Hm interesting, it does not appear that the quotes are pertinent here - of course we agree that Wikipedia should not be advertising for the "MGTOW" or Flat Earth movements and I'm in full agreement with this policy: the NPOV standard objectively manages the related parameters there arguably quite effectively.

Regarding NPOV and CHOPSY on this article, we can of course also observe that plenty of present and former WP/CHOPSY scholars have academically published favorably regarding some of the related epistemology and ontology etc here, including Zajonc, Amrine, McKanan and others. Interesting questions W. Dever and co are raising there also - it appears the Smithsonian piece can additionally help facilitate more objective and neutral ways of viewing the prominent leaders depicted in the Old Testament or Torah, with some modest additional support from the Eakins piece below as well: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/archaeological-dig-reignites-debate-old-testament-historical-accuracy-180979011/https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/003463737707400402?journalCode=raeb

However, I don't think anyone here seeks to portray Steiner as a prophet - from a tech/VC/business management science standpoint today, being able to successfully found companies/organizations and make accurate predictions while understanding/forecasting trends are important though, and he did somehow manage to found a range of companies/organizations that have grown to large sizes and market cap etc today (often scientifically assessed positively in academia), while arguably leveraging pattern/trend analysis in making a range of predictions on technical/sociological trends around automation, democracy and transhumanism et al that are still arguably quite relevant in our time today.

If there is then no epistemological or ontological basis to the Waldorf schools for example, why do many leaders around tech entertainment and more choose to send their kids to Waldorf schools instead of the other options as the NYTimes article and others explore, not to mention notable alumni accomplishments? And finally yes, while Goethean Science is criticized by some scholars, it certainly receives plenty of positive measurement and sentiment in academic research as well, thus the referral back to and recommendation for the more truly balanced and neutral NPOV standard and approach here. https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

So with all this being said, and having explored all of the relevant subjects and sources to the article here, I would like to go ahead and make this addition after the second sentence of the second paragraph of the article:

"Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded."

These independent sources help facilitate a balanced NPOV as reflected by the academic research - is any of this going to be an issue for you, or should we request a third opinion? SamwiseGSix (talk) 17:30, 31 October 2023 (UTC)

As I said: WP:PSCI, WP:GEVAL, WP:FRINGE. You have to obey these all while you edit Wikipedia. If you do not like do do that, leave. tgeorgescu (talk) 00:57, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes, understood - so as I understand it since these are independent sources above, I could go ahead and edit these in after the second sentance of the second paragraph. It would be the direct adjustment of the first sentence of the second paragraph however (to qualifying say with 'scholarly critics assert') that would cause you to revert etc

I do have to travel quite a ways across timezones late this week and over the weekend for a funeral unfortunately, so I was planning to come back to this ideally early next week, if possible as well. SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:15, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I cannot force you to like our WP:RULES, but if you do not like our rules, vote with your feet.

I'm not saying that I'm without mistake, but I evaluate all edits according to WP:RULES, not according to my own liking and prejudices. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes of course, it is all about the science and NPOV :thumbsup: SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Suggesting that Wikipedia should endorse gnomes, sylphs, and talking to the spirits of dead Atlanteans makes a mockery of our encyclopedia. tgeorgescu (talk) 01:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Not endorsing any of those things or seeeking to make a mockery out of the Encyclopedia in any way here, rather simply trying to help add some of the scientific insight available in the many independent journal articles linked above to help facilitate neutral point of view, for the sake of a decent and humane future. Humanity faces existential risk https://cosmosandhistory.org/index.php/journal/article/view/1069 SamwiseGSix (talk) 01:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Why do you state for the sake of a decent and humane future. Humanity faces existential risk? WP:NOTAFORUM. You cannot win this debate with such inane arguments. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I saw your post on my talk page - I am seeking to use the talk page here to help improve the article by seeking a more balanced NPOV and the academic sources on the topic (both from the literature and posts citing their points above) above certainly do arguably apply right.. Not seeking to soapbox - are you saying that you have admin capability and can simply block me as an editor without warning? This does seem to be quite heavy handed, and an unfair application of the policy. SamwiseGSix (talk) 13:45, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I have never said I am an admin. I just said that WP:AE is just around the corner. So is WP:ANI also. If you do not want to listen to my warnings, there are plenty of admins ready to block you. tgeorgescu (talk) 13:54, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Coming back to the edit you have suggested, my two cents are that all the new sources fail WP:FRIND, so: no, you edit isn't allowed. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:17, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Hm, so even when an editor is making points very arguably strongly related to improving the article (including around the deeper questions of ontology and philosophy of science) you are saying that you could begin an arbitration process for this - I am assuming the admins would closely read the arguments in question, and assess to what degree they are related to improving the article? Can you show me the precedents that make you feel confidently that I could be blocked from editing without further notice here? Again a fair application of the policies should allow for discussion of ontology, including around philosophy of science right.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:21, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

As for the sources above cited, they are independent reliable sources right - can you demonstrate from your perspective (your two cents, as you say) why they are not independent reliable sources.. SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I urge you to desist from offtopic rants about materialism, existentialism, future of mankind, and existential risk. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Well is the academic literature above not connecting the way the subject article of this talk page is applicable to reducing existential risk? Existentialism is related to the ontology and philosophy of science in this article and your counter assertions - are you trying to argue that we are not allowed to discuss ontology or the philosophy of science? SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

This talk page is WP:NOTAFORUM. If you have been unable to get the point after so many hints and formal warnings, you will likely never get it. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I was going to say that, this talk page is for discussing how to improve the article, and not a general discussion forum. Slatersteven (talk) 14:40, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Right, and I am here politely recommending that we include a sentence like the one below after the second sentence of the second paragraph, to facilitate a more balanced NPOV which showcases the many independent reliable sources publishing relevant data on the subject - is this not a fair application of the NPOV standard and talk page use in facilitating?

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded. SamwiseGSix (talk) 14:47, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: ontology meaning gnomes, elves, fairies, and sylphs; epistemology meaning talking to the spirits of dead Atlanteans. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Irrelevant, what is relevant is I found none of those words in the first source, so it failed wp:v. Slatersteven (talk) 14:56, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: I mean I'm not ignorant of Steiner's ontology, nor of his epistemology. Endorsing them would make a mockery of our encyclopedia. tgeorgescu (talk) 14:58, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Epistemology is in the title here, for Waldorf pedagogy https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

The metaphysics does draw heavily from Aquinas and Ancient Greek philosophy, but the independent reliable sources here are looking at Waldorf pedagogy (over 3000 schools in most major cities) for example among other applications, including environmental conservation and more:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2158244013494861 SamwiseGSix (talk) 15:01, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded is a largely meaningless sentence that only serves only WP:FALSEBALANCE. Do opponents "acknowledge arguments" when they refute them? Anthroposophy is a weird mixture of obsolete scientific theories, schizophrenic delusions, and platitudes, held together by pompous flubdub. And that sentence is 100% pompous flubdub. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:18, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok, on a call here currently - will rework this and can post an updated version within an hour or so here SamwiseGSix (talk) 15:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

This is not a chatroom, you do not have to write something just to write something. And there is no deadline. --Hob Gadling (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

I don't see why we can't add a sentence for example mentioning the epistemology as studied and measured by the academy in education, and its effectiveness in Waldorf education specifically? Not including such extensive and notable scientific data does would not appear to be a proper implementation/adherence to the Wikipedia NPOV policy. This is not to create a false balance, but to state that while much of the body of Anthroposophical work would be considered pseudoscientific by today's standards, some independent, scientifically measured research has nevertheless been published, and is notable for inclusion to keep the article at a reasonable NPOV standard. Just following the science here:https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1476718X211051184https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html SamwiseGSix (talk) 17:08, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

As I said: WP:FRINGE. Maybe for you that's not a valid argument, but for the Wikipedia Community is a valid argument. tgeorgescu (talk) 17:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Yes sure, and that is why presented here are a range of sources passing Wikipedia's standards for 'notability', 'parity', 'independence' and attribution etc as stated on the WP/Fringe page you cite:

https://www.scielo.br/j/er/a/8nyN7QDpx6JYdh4VvYsPBHN/

https://eric.ed.gov/?id=ej432784https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/15507394.2017.1294400

H. A. Alexander, Reclaiming Goodness: Education and the Spiritual Quest (Notre Dame, IN: University of Notre Dame Press, 2001); D. E. Hall, A. M. Catanzaro, O. Harrison, and H.G. Koenig (UTChttps://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1476718X211051184https://repository.arizona.edu/bitstream/handle/10150/621063/azu_etd_14891_sip1_m.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=yhttps://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/23/technology/at-waldorf-school-in-silicon-valley-technology-can-wait.html

SamwiseGSix (talk) 17:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Rather then providing links how about three really good quotes that back up your suggestion? Slatersteven (talk) 17:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Sure, here some quotes which I hope could help:

From the Indedendent.co.uk:

"Pupils from Steiner schools are said to have practical skills that make them more able to cope in the adult world.." "The argument goes: if it is all right for rich parents to pay for their children to undergo this kind of education, why should it not be available to those who do not have the means to pay for their children's education as well?"

Eric.gov: "Waldorf schools educate the whole human being--head, heart, and hands."

Journal via Arizona.edu: "Students from Waldorf school environments demonstrate critical skills and critique schooling environments, invoking stances familiar to critical pedagogues. Investigation into the philosophical tenets of Waldorf education and Native American/Indigenous epistemologies shows several examples of overlap and similarity, the most striking being elements of spiritual belief and practice as foundational to Native American/Indigenous well-being, and the ability of Waldorf education to address this."

NYTimes: "The chief technology officer of eBay sends his children to a nine-classroom school here. So do employees of Silicon Valley giants like Google, Apple, Yahoo and Hewlett-Packard. This is the Waldorf School of the Peninsula, one of around 160 Waldorf schools in the country that subscribe to a teaching philosophy focused on physical activity and learning through creative, hands-on tasks.." SamwiseGSix (talk) 18:02, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

what has this to do with "Both also acknowledge the extensive ontological, epistemological, and phenomenological bases and arguments upon which the philosophy and social movement is grounded", what is this thread about? Slatersteven (talk) 18:06, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Ok so how about we start by saying, in the 'Scientific Basis' section further down of this article something like:

"While some academics consider much of the body of Anthroposophy's compiled work and knowledge to be pseudoscientific, other scholars and recognized sources have recognized the positive empirically measurable results of the movement's insights as applied in education for example, where the founding and growth of over 3000 Waldorf schools (and kindergartens) worldwide has demonstrated significant and notable positive empirically measurable results [then the four citations]." SamwiseGSix (talk) 18:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

We could then write a similar sentence for the similarly notable results in environmental conservation, farming, philosophy/ontology, the Camphills, and perhaps banking, where prominent scholars (at high levels in central banks now etc) have been cited as well hm

Overall I might offer though that timewise, I would prefer to keep things a bit more quick/concise by just starting with something more akin to the shorter and more compact/comprehensive summary sentence I've prepared for the second paragraph there, but could also start with a more in-depth approach of bringing the more full NPOV to the 'Scientific Basis' section further down first, and then preparing a more comprehensive/condensable sentence for the second intro paragraph from there, if preferable hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 18:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Or we close this as an unfocused mess that seems to be conflating different issues? Slatersteven (talk) 18:25, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

How are we conflating different issues here though? The philosophical spiritual and social movement described in this article did found the Waldorf schools, which have demonstrated notable positive empirically measurable impact hm SamwiseGSix (talk) 18:29, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Because the teaching method, is not the philosophy, it is one aspect of it. even a broken clock is right twice a day. Slatersteven (talk) 18:32, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

even a broken clock is right twice a day—especially schools which cherrypick students from parents who are affluent and well-learned. And let's not forget: they expel students who are lazy, stupid, or misbehaving. While the hurdle for expelling students from vanilla public schools is extremely high. Why did Steve Jobs die? Because he chose alternative medicine. So, you see, even people who are affluent and well-learned do not always choose the best for themselves (and their children). tgeorgescu (talk) 21:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Pseudoscience, again

Hi, Nathanielcwilliams. We are not Kuhnian purists. I don't say that Kuhn isn't important, but he is not begin all and end all. Some epistemic choices have been ready-made for the Wikipedia Community, I mean the website policy WP:PSCI. Or if you want a hardcore introduction to that policy, read WP:LUNATICS.

Stated otherwise, let's say you're studying chemistry. If you learn well the paradigm of chemistry, you become a good chemist-scientist. If you don't, then you become a maverick. Same applies to Wikipedia, but in place of a scientific paradigm we have WP:RULES about which sources are relevant, how to mediate disputes, and so on. One who learns well these rules becomes a good Wikipedian, one who doesn't becomes a maverick and gets blocked and topic-banned. tgeorgescu (talk) 19:53, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

Kuhn himself opposed the attempts to use his work to support nonsense. Using him for such purposes does not fly. --Hob Gadling (talk) 20:06, 16 November 2023 (UTC)