Talk:Anthony Senter and Joseph Testa

Anthony Testa Jr???

The article states that Robert Senter had a son named Anthony Testa Jr - how is that possible??? Or maybe it's Anthony Senter who had a son named Anthony Testa Jr??? But either way, how would either of them have a son who's last name is "Testa"??? Doesn't make sense. It think this is a mistake. Maybe it is Anthony Senter who had a child and named him "Anthony Senter Jr"??? That's the only thing that makes sense to me. Anybody have any info???

Anthony had 3 sons to be exact. The youngest one is named after him. I knew all three personally before they left canarsie so out of respect for them I won't say any more than that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bkzblade27 (talk • contribs) 20:16, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

RE: Since I cannot figure out how to write on my own in this little section, I shall write here instead. Anthony Senter did not have a Child named Anthony Testa Jr.. He Had three children, all boys, and all whom I remember as a child growing up in Canarsie. I am not at liberty of mentioning their names, but I can confirm that he did have a son named after him(except the middle name I believe) born in the mid 80s. All three boys were born within 6 years of one another between the late 70s and early to mid 80s. I know the specifics on them including names and years of birth, but again I do not feel it is my place to share any of this information. Blade2711 (talk) December 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.72.9.25 (talk)

Gemini Twins

Did anyone notice that the descriptions of the Gemini Twins in Murder Machine are the opposite of those in For the Sins of My Father? Was this to show that Dominick Montiglio's accounts are inaccurate? 24.61.228.225 05:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I noticed that myself, and it's frustrating to readers. Between the two however -- Capeci and Albert DeMeo -- I would tend to trust DeMeo's observations more regarding the personalities of Senter and Testa. The saga of the DeMeo crew is perhaps the most interesting mafia story of all time. I only wish there were more pictures of the participants available to the public. 68.166.237.166 (talk) 05:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah I agree with that. If you look at the pictures of Testa, he's always hunched over, no doubt from a "bad back" as described in Sins, as with Senter having breathing problems from a knife stabbed in his chest when he was in a bar fight. But where I think Albert Demeo is wrong is his description of Senter being the boss and Testa following. Testa was really in charge as during the late 1980s during their trials: the Gaggi task force became the Testa task force. If Senter was really in charge it would have been the Senter task force. I think Albert Demeo mixed things up a bit in his telling to add an air of mystery to the whole story. For example: He says Roy was born in 1942, but his social security number lists his birth as 1940. Another instance is the Christmas dinner when Al describes it occuring before he turned seven. So that would have made it Christmas 1972. At the same time he describes Chris Rosenberg having a bullet hole in his arm, no doubt from the Katz shooting. But as we know from Murder Machine that happened in Nov. of 1974. Also Al describes Dominick Montiglio and his wife of having two baby girls. Which is false because he had his second girl, his third child after 1979. All in all I think Demeo wanted to give the book an airy second hand feel to it. By doing this, it makes one wonder what is the real truth--making it all the more mysterious. Rawoyster (talk) 06:08, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Rawoyster: Regarding Katz's shooting of Chris Rosenberg, I believe Rosenberg was wounded in the jaw, and not in the arm. That's what I seem to remember from "Murder Machine." Thus, it's possible that Rosenberg's arm injury stemmed from a different, earlier shootout...one that Capeci may not know about. As for Roy DeMeo's social security number, it's possible that Roy himself fabricated the 1940 birthdate for whatever reason.

Yes, Murder Machine mentions Rosenberg getting hit in the left part of the jaw, and says that he wore a beard after that to cover up the scar/deformation. But I think I read somewhere that Katz got a couple of shots off at Rosenberg, so he could have easily had a bullet wound in the arm and also a jaw wound.

I just did a re-read of Murder Machine, and it says that Katz got off three shots at Rosenberg - one shot hit his jaw, a second shot hit his arm, and a third shot grazed his chest. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 16:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

On another note, I know a guy who lived in Bay Ridge during the mid to late 1980s. He says there were several small Brooklyn newspapers that did lots of stories on Anthony Senter. The stories are supposed to contain photos as well. I'm wondering if anyone can get ahold of those stories, upload them to the net and link them to this article? That would great.

According to these newspaper articles, everyone in Bay Ridge who knew of Senter was scared to death of him. Supposedly everyone made a point out of greeting Senter deferentially because they feared what he'd think if they failed to say hello. Allegedly the locals where mystified by Senter because he always had lots of money but, as best as everyone knew, he never had a job...he just lounged around all day with his friends. These newspapers also say -- according to my friend at least -- that Senter maintained an apartment in Bay Ridge where he and his associates could chop up their victims and dispose of them. This apartment is different from the one that DeMeo and his crew used at the Gemini Lounge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.90.45.36 (talk) 22:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Roy DeMeo did not fabricate his DOB. It's the same DOB listed with the DEA, FBI, BOP and the Southern District of New York Organized Crime Strike Force. Whoever wrote that section of Albert DeMeo's book got Roy's birthdate wrong and it was left in.

About the newspaper articles on Anthony Senter, if you can get the name of the papers they can probably be tracked down. He did have a job though. He was employed with Teamster's Local 813 from 1980 to 1989. Dugrad (talk) 22:45, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Clean up

Nothing here is referenced. There was a lot of repetition, a lot of discussion about physcial appearances, and a lot of conjecture. this is not acceptable for an encyclopedia article. I have removed a bunch of the worst stuff, and tagged for citation a bunch of other things. If these statements cannot be backed up within a reasonable period, they will be removed. Please see WP:V and WP:BLP for more information on how to write a Wikipedia biography. Ground Zero | t 13:44, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

You will gut the article if you do that. I see that you put "citation needed" after things like where it says that the crew was known for it's wanton violence. Actually, if you read the book Murder Machine, you will find a lot of the stuff in there. Actually, it's very well known that the DeMeo crew was extremely violent. I wouldn't have thought that that would have required a specific citation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 18:46, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

1. If it is in a book, then it can be cited and meet WP:V -- no problem. Please add whatever citations you can.
2. Can something be "well-known" and not in a citable source? I don't think so. And it is well-known by whom? Again, I think if it well-known, then it will be easy to find a citable source. Please take a look at WP:V for more information.

WP:BLP is very clear on this question:

Unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material about living persons — whether the material is negative, positive, or just questionable — should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion, from Wikipedia articles, talk pages, user pages, and project space.

I have removed everything previously tagged for which no citations have been provided, and added more tags. Material can be re-added alter with citations if they are found.

I really do not like removing material, but given the nature of the accusations made in this article, it is seriously in violation of Wikipedia policies in WP:BLP. Ground Zero | t 20:36, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to bother doing what you asked. I don't come to Wikipedia to make loads of edits and look up loads of citations. That is for people who are seriously into this Wikipedia business - people like you, for instance. If you are going to be such a hairsplitter, why don't YOU spend the time getting the citations. You would be doing Wikipedia a much greater favor than just coming here and deleting stuff. Anybody can do that. I mean, I see that you eliminated the sentence about one of them starting a sentence and the other one finishing it - I remember reading that in Murder Machine. Why don't you take the time to learn the subject matter before running off and deleting things. That's one of the things that I have noticed that is a serious impediment to Wikipedia - there are loads of busybodies who like to delete on subjects they know nothing about. I mean, you even took out the word "notorious" for describing the DeMeo crew - well, they WERE notorious - law enforcement now thinks that they killed more people than any other mafia crew. If the 200 figure is correct (as law enforcement thinks is correct), these guys were serial killers - but you have been peevish and taken out the word "notorious". I guess you get off deleting things on subjects you know nothing about. Why don't you help instead of being a hindrance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 00:35, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

And I won't bother responding to your comments. Please see Wikipedia:No personal attacks, and have a rainbow day. Ground Zero | t 04:08, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I see - if I point out that you are editing (mostly deleting) on subject matter that you aren't familiar with/haven't taken the time to learn, then you consider that to be a personal attack. I mean, it would be like me going into an article on nuclear physics and deciding that I'm going to edit and delete. Don't you realize, that if you don't know the subject matter, you shouldn't be doing wholesale editing on it??? Go take a look at the entry on John F. Kennedy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy#cite_note-1

Giant chunks of it are unsourced. I mean, his birthdate is unsourced, why not delete that??? As for your wishing me a "rainbow day", I presume that has something to do with your stating on your Wikipedia page that you are a "flaming homosexual". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 06:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

JFK's birthdate is not contentious. The accusations made against Senter, while probably true, are very serious accusations, and therefore must be supported by reliable sources. This is not busybody editing, it is Wikipedia policy. My comments about personal attacks refer to you calling me a "busybody", "peevish" and a "a hindrance". "Notorious" is an unnecessary subjective term. If the article provided citations from reliable sources about their crimes, then the reader can make judgements about them for him or herself. I may not know much about this subject, but I do know a lot about Wikipedia policies. If we combine your knowledge of the subject matter and my knowledge of Wikipedia policies, we can make this a better article. I think that is something worth doing. Ground Zero | t 12:34, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

"The accusations made against Senter, while probably true, are very serious accusations". You gotta be kidding me. Senter was convicted of murder - I mean, he helped cut up the bodies into little pieces for disposal. It's not "probably true" - he got convicted. He's never getting out. He's going to die in the can and he knows it. And you say that saying that the crew was "notorious" is somehow some sort of slur on this guy???? I think you need to read up on the subject matter first before making any more edits here. It's just incredible what you've written. I mean, try taking a look at the entry for Dominick Montiglio (Monitiglio, for your information, testified against Senter and got him convicted, but you wouldn't know that):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominick_Montiglio

Notice that nothing in that entry has citations. So, what is the correct course of action? You would delete the entire article. On the other hand, I would suggest that somebody like you should spent a little time and effort and document as much of that entry as possible rather than just delete the effort and hard work somebody has done. What you are doing is really not appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 13:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I'll take a look at that article. Since you have access to Murder Machine and other references, you can improve the articles by adding citations. Please understand that the Wikipedia community has adopted policies like WP:BLP to

(a) protect the subjects of articles from libel, and

(b) protect itself from lawsuits.

This is why WP:BLP is so very, very clear on the issue of citations about lviing people. I don't write Wikipedia policies, but as an administrator, I have to help enforce them. Ground Zero | t 14:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I can see what you are saying, but keep in mind that Anthony Senter is a convicted multiple-murderer, with witness testimony that he cut up his victims (apparently like to do it) into little pieces, drained the blood, etc, i.e. "the Gemini method". I mean, the guy got life for it, and he's never getting out, and he knows it. There is nothing that you or anybody could write about Anthony Senter that would be "contentious". It is ridiculous to say that. I mean what worse could be said about Senter other than what the court said - that he is a homicidal maniac and a threat to society. I dunno. Maybe Senter will sue Wikipedia for saying the DeMeo crew was "notorious". LOL.

And, no, I'm not going to go to all the effort of getting the citations - I am a casual Wikipedia reader and offer tidbits here and there when I know them. But it's mostly in those two books, Murder Machine, and The Sins of My Father. Oh, also the Arts & Entertainment documentary that they did. And I thought the Dominick Montiglio entry is quite good, even if it doesn't have any citations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 18:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I am sorry that you do not agree with Wikipedia policies. Not much I can do about that. They are set by the Wikipedia community to ensure the quality of the encyclopedia. They are not set by me. I just don't see the point in you crapping all over me for them. Ground Zero | t 18:21, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

No, you are arguing with yourself, and trying to put words into my mouth. It's not that I "do not agree with Wikipedia policies", it's that you do not understand the word "contentious". Senter has a serious problem - he's been sentenced to life for being a convicted multiple-murderer - he's been "inside" for decades now - so all the stuff you are taking out is just fluff. You need to read up on the subject matter first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 23:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I was thumbing through "Sins of My Father" last night and ran across on page 83 where Albert is talking about the Gemini twins and how they resembled each other, hung out with each other, etc, etc, and on that page he notes that Testa is one inch taller than Senter. You deleted that (actually, you deleted a line that said that Testa was TWO inches taller - I think Murder Machine pegged them at 2 inches and Sins at 1 inch. Anyway, I can't for the life of me figure out why you deleted that, why it would be considered "contentious". Senter (and Testa) has been labelled a serial murderer by a court. Murder Machine claimed he enjoyed killing. I don't think Wikipedia is going to get sued by saying that Senter was two inches shorter than Testa. Actually, if there is anything "contentious" in this entry, it is the bit about him having been a rat in the 1970's - that can get you killed in prison, even if it happened 30 years ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 16:09, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

While we're at it, here's another biography that is largely uncited:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Borelli

To my knowledge, it is all correct though. Mostly taken from Murder Machine—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 16:29, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

I have been re-reading Murder Machine, and every one of the deletions are in the first 100 pages of that book. Even to the point where Murder Machine claims Testa was 2 inches taller than Senter and Sins of My Father claims 1 inch. It's all there. The author of this entry on Senter took it all from Murder Machine and put the citation down under "References". I have therefore reversed the deletions. If somebody wants to put a citation after every sentence to Murder Machine, they are welcome.

Senter a rat???

It says, "[Senter] also revealed the identities of Richard Chaisson and Warren Schurman who were his two accomplices". That makes Senter a rat, right? The guy's a rat in addition to being a homicidal maniac. By the way, does anybody know how Senter is taking it in prison? Resigned to it? Going crazy? Also, did he get made in the Lucchese family? And, if so, before or after he went to prison?

Okay, I figured it out - it was Robert Senter that ratted, not Anthony Senter. Still, Senter has a rat in his family. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 18:34, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Communication between the Gemini Twins, and also Borelli

Does anybody know if there is much communication between the Gemini twins these days, and also between them and Henry Borelli? I know that Senter and Testa tried their hand at being in a "rock band" together for a while, but their now housed in completely different prisons. Borelli is also in a separate prison. Anybody know what their frame of minds are? Resigned? Outraged? Feel they were hard-done-by??? I know Borelli did that little rant in court when he was being sentenced and turned his back on the judge. But Borelli is actually already eligible for parole (because he got his murder conviction reversed) but is still in the can for the 150-year sentence for the stolen cars. But he doesn't apply for parole? Is this because the chances of his getting parole are zero percent? Also, do Senter and Testa get very many visitors these days? I know they had some friends there in court when they got sentenced, but that was decades ago, so was wondering if they have been forgotten (as so often happens to people in prison). Thanks in advance to anybody that might know any of this stuff. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.129.127.155 (talk) 18:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I can't find any photos of Testa,Senter, or Borelli. I did inmate seraches in PA, NC, and WV. Those are the three states that wikipedia says they are locked up. All three searches came up with nothing. Does that mean they have been transferred or are they kept private? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.177.172.119 (talk) 16:33, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Article tone is inappropriate

This article still reads like it was pulled out of a tabloid paper - we need to remove the gangster jargon, flip statements, etc. Also, I agree that the numerous claims in this article need citations. If you can't prove something with a citation, another editor has the right to take it out (especially when it concerns a living person). No one person owns these articles - we all do. Rogermx (talk) 16:48, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Merging Anthony Senter and Joseph Testa together

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge Vic49 (talk) 16:38, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

---

These two articles should be merged together. Together Senter and Testa were known as the Gemini twins.(Ref:For the Sins of My Father: A Mafia Killer, His Son, and the Legacy of a Mob Life By Albert DeMeo pg.83,202, 227, 244) Separately Senter and Testa don't meet Wikipedia notability requirements. --Vic49 (talk) 15:18, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. Portillo (talk) 08:18, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

File:Anthonysenter2.JPG Nominated for Deletion

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Noting closure of merge

For discussion, see Talk:List of Lucchese crime family mobsters#Merger proposal Anthony Senter and Joseph Testa.Klbrain (talk) 22:30, 16 February 2017 (UTC)