Talk:Andy Ruiz Jr.

He is Mexican American change his nationality

How can he be born in California and born in Mexicali? Maybe he was a "born again Christian"?, June 5, 2019

He is Mexican Havs2010 (talk) 11:08, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

agreed. he represented mexico in the olympics. he even showed up wraped in mexican flags in the weigh in. SWAGnificient (talk) 23:47, 2 June 2019 (UTC)

Nope, please see MOS:ETHNICITY (as highlights in a comment in the lead). Olympic representation is not a determining factor. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:01, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

definitely not. that section is for nationality (aka what passport do you use) plus he himself and the media calls him a mexican champ. get that thtough your thick jungoistic skull. SWAGnificient (talk) 00:03, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Simply, please see MOS:ETHNICITY. That guidance as written is clear. The article lead as written highlighted Ruiz as the "second person of Hispanic descent, after John Ruiz, and the first person of Mexican descent to become world heavyweight champion". He was born in California, and is American, which is also shown on BoxRec here. All that said, what is the grounds for removing/reverting the statement that he is American in the lead? Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:09, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Boxrec is wrong. I, should know, I'm an editor on it. Also, if it;s about ethnicity and not nationality as you state, why to the "ethnicities" change when a person changes nationality (see example Alexander Dimitrenko) ? Simple, because it's not ethnicity (culture/language), it's natioality (passport, voting rights, etc).

As for proof of nationality, he himself and the media calls him a mexican champ. plus he represented mexico in the olympics. cant me more clear which nation he represents. SWAGnificient (talk) 00:24, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. I have not said that it's about ethnicity; what I have said is, please see MOS:ETHNICITY, the Wikipedia guidance about ethnicity. In particular, please see the statement there: "In most modern-day cases this will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident". Ruiz is identified in sources (including BoxRec) as being born in California and being an American. I don't dispute that represented Mexico in the 2008 Olympics trials and he is the "second person of Hispanic descent, after John Ruiz, and the first person of Mexican descent to become world heavyweight champion". That said, Olympic representation is not an indicator of "citizen, national or permanent resident", as many countries allow persons to represent them in Olympic games based on their parents or grandparents having been a citizen. The lead for this article should reflect Ruiz's "country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident", which is the US. Or if he's currently "a citizen, national or permanent resident" of Mexico, we need some reliable sources for that. Dmoore5556 (talk) 00:40, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

being born in a country does not equate to being the national of said country. although some countries, like the US, has birth citizenship. that's why i left the american nationality alongside mexican in the infobox. As for who he represents, I prefer the man himself as my primary source in that case. As you can see here ->[[1]], he chooses the mexican flag. there are other videos of instances where he or his entourage flies the mexican flag. SWAGnificient (talk) 00:51, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

another example where he and his crew chooses the mexican flag ->[[2]] . SWAGnificient (talk) 00:53, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

That he and his crew choose to display the flag of Mexico is also not an indicator of "citizen, national or permanent resident". Per his post-fight interview, he puts focus on his Mexican heritage, as is directly highlighted in the lead. When it comes to starting his nationality as Mexican in the article infobox and lead, need some reliable sources that establish he is a "citizen, national or permanent resident" of Mexico. Dmoore5556 (talk) 01:03, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

at this point there is more proof, including from the man himself, that he represents mexico. the need for burden of proof isn't that he's not american, but that he as a dual national stil represents the US. it's kind of obvious that he doesn't. heck the picture in infobox has a mexican flag in it. at this point the burned of proof should be does he still represent the US. and no. being born in the US doesn't mean he does. SWAGnificient (talk) 01:07, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

The subject stating he's Mexican (which could either be an ethnicity/descent or a nationality) alone does not mean Wikipedia is obliged to present its own information as that. That is one form of sourcing, called WP:PRIMARY. It does not matter what "you prefer"; a primary source is not the be-all and end-all. Now, if he has represented Mexico in an international competition that would mean that his Mexican nationality certainly has a notability for that particular event/achievement, which should be stated in the article. But his default nationality is American and we need to take a look at what the sanctioning bodies (since we're talking about current achievements) are listing his nationality as. DA1 (talk) 01:42, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Agreed. The first sentence only refers to the basic facts of his nationality. As stated by SWAGnificient, being born in the United States does, in fact, equate to being a US national, so the opening text should represent that fact, regardless of who he prefers to represent personally. Despite having Mexican parents and being partially raised in Mexico, he was born in the United States and is a US citizen. If he holds dual nationality as a Mexican citizen also, then perhaps he should be referred to as a Mexican American, but until reliable sources can be provided to confirm this, his nationality should show as United States. As stated by others above, Ruiz' personal allegiances, nor his Olympic representation, are not an accurate indications of nationality. His personal allegiances and origins can be elaborated on in subsequent text. Also removing "huge" from that first sentence would be in keeping with showing just the facts in the page's opening paragraph - such adjectives are subjective and are not required. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Munguz (talk • contribs) 01:51, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

you can't represent a country in the olympics if you're not the a citizen of said country. he represented mexico in the olympic qualifiers, therefore it's confirmed he's a mexican citizen. SWAGnificient (talk) 02:01, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Nope - "the Mexican national team only requires that you have Mexican heritage in order to compete for them." (see article here). Dmoore5556 (talk) 02:09, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

that's because persons born in Mexican territory regardless of parents' nationality or immigration status in Mexico, or persons born abroad from a Mexican Citizen born in Mexico are mexican nationals according to the consitution.SWAGnificient (talk) 02:15, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

IOC Rule 41, which covers nationality, requires only that athletes are considered nationals by the country they represent, not necessarily citizens. There is a difference. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Munguz (talk • contribs) 02:19, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Nationality. SWAGnificient (talk) 02:21, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

According to mexican constitution a mexican citizen is a mexican national over 18 and has "honest way of living" <- bit vague this one. might mean no criminal record or just employed. either way, Ruiz fits into both categories. SWAGnificient (talk) 02:25, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

From the page you linked to: "Nationality differs technically and legally from citizenship, which is a different legal relationship between a person and a country. The noun national can include both citizens and non-citizens." This difference is one that athletes and nations can use to exploit changes in allegiance for athletes competing for different nations. I'm not suggesting Andy Ruiz has done this, but there are no clear references or sources provided so far to confirm his Mexican citizenship. As stated, Olympic representation alone is not sufficient to do so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Munguz (talk • contribs) 02:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

his mexican citizenship is as clear as his american birth citizenship. both his parents are mexican and mexican born. this gives Ruiz automatic nationality and being over 18 and having "honest way of living" <- which is athletics, he's a mexican citizen. the way the rule you quoted is worded in that way is to allow mexican nationals born or/and living, who are under 18 to compete for mexico. example gymansts. SWAGnificient (talk) 02:57, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

OK, so he may have citizenship of Mexico also, in which case he should probably be described as Mexican American subsequently, rather than Mexican primarily as is currently shown. Furthermore, as DA1 stated above "his Mexican nationality certainly has a notability for that particular event/achievement, which should be in the article. But his default nationality is American and we need to take a look at what the sanctioning bodies (since wstated e're talking about current achievements) are listing his nationality as." The WBO, WBA, IBF, and BoxRec websites, all referenced on the page, list his representation as United States. Munguz (talk) 03:20, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Assuming that could be sourced, Mexican American ? Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:10, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

He should still be described as American primarily, as that is his default nationality and what the organisations he boxes under list him as, as stated earlier above. At the very least I suggest it reads as "... is an American professional boxer with dual Mexican nationality..." While I understand that many would want to claim him as Mexican, Wikipedia is about recording just the facts (especially in the opening paragraph), not what may satisfy some people's personal preferences, even the subject's own.Munguz (talk) 03:51, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Good point. At least, his ability/status to compete as a Mexican national can be supported, such as here. Dmoore5556 (talk) 04:57, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Refer also to pages of athletes with similar heritage, particularly ones like Fernando Vargas, Roberto Garcia and Juan Diaz (who was only excluded from fighting for Mexico at the Olympics due to his age) who are described as American in the first paragraph, despite their Mexican heritage, personal allegiances, wearing Mexican flags, Mexican fan base, etc., and are all listed as American in their official records. Andy Ruiz jr.'s page should also reflect the same consistency without undue bias or personal opinion.

I agree that it's pertinent and, as I mentioned, his Mexican nationality and ability to represent Mexico should be noted subsequently. Similar athletes' pages (e.g. Roberto Garcia, mentioned above), have this explained in later paragraphs. Munguz (talk) 05:21, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

I have changed him to Mexican as I believe it’s one of Wikipedia’s rules to identify sport nationality at the top, and most media sources are referring to him as Mexican. I would be happy with Mexican-American however Scf1985 (talk) 07:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

This is reverted to show "Mexican-American" then. Refer earlier comments on this page above regarding Ruiz' nationality as recorded by the various boxing organisations (that list his nationality as American) whose belts he has now won (regardless of what online media outlets are referring to him as, which, appears to be mostly "of Mexican descent" or "Mexican-American", rather than solely "Mexican" anyway). Wikipedia's manual for biographies states that nationality "will be the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if the person is notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable". In Ruiz' case, this could be argued either way.

"Mexican-American" is a reasonable compromise then. His side-bar shows his nationality as both Mexican and American and, as previously mentioned, his status as a dual national and his personal allegiance can be elaborated on in subsequent paragraphs. Munguz (talk) 09:45, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's rules you have to identify someone according to what they personally identify as, regardless of what anyone else says. Ruiz has clearly stated in his press conference after the fight with Anthony Joshua, that "I'm the first MEXICAN heavyweight champion of the world" and a Mexican flag is held behind him in the press conference, he has also represented Mexico in the Olympics. I only changed the nationality to Mexican-American to defuse the initial situation but now I support that it be changed to American-born Mexican which clarifies that he was born in American but identifies as solely Mexican. KhakePakeVatan (talk) 13:53, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Or change it to ‘Mexican boxer with dual Mexican and U.S. citizenship’. That sentence will tick all the boxes Scf1985 (talk) 15:37, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

That's what Mexican-American means. KhakePakeVatan (talk) 12:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

In case it helps, the Los Angeles Times ran an article with several quotes from Ruiz on May 29 here:

“It means a lot, especially knowing I’ve worked from 6 years old to get to where I’m at now,” Ruiz said. “But it won’t mean something only to me.

“The hard-working Mexican tries to get up here looking for opportunities because America’s one of the greatest countries in the world. For me, I’m an American and I’m a Mexican. I live here. And it hurts me the way a lot of people talk about Mexicans when I know we’re all about hard work and dedication.

“Each Mexican has his own dream, and I’ve come to believe as long as we focus, you can accomplish anything you want. So maybe by winning I can change some minds.”

(end of quote) Dmoore5556 (talk) 03:49, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

That is not enough. Many celebrities identify themselves as of certain nation or ethnic group. A credible source is needed to prove that Ruiz is a Mexican citizen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.176.44.158 (talk) 11:29, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Honestly, I'm being serious. Does anyone know a way which we can contact him and ask him personally or can someone contact a sports journalist and ask them to ask him. Can this be done to settle this. The man clearly identifies as Mexican but apparently he has to state that he is a Mexican "citizen" even though he clearly states his feelings about being Mexican numerous times. KhakePakeVatan (talk) 12:19, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• Per Article 30 of the Mexican Constitution, Ruiz is a Mexican-born citizen like anyone else born in Mexico. One of the requirements for people born abroad is that one of their parents is born in Mexican territory (in this case, Ruiz's family is from Mexicali, so he qualifies). That is why Ruiz was able to represent Mexico in Beijing 2008. MX (✉ • ✎) 19:27, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 June 2019

Andy Ruiz's nationality should be changed back to AMERICAN. There is no such thing as "Mexican-American" as an official Nationality. Do to his current spike in popularity over the weekend some trolls have laid a false claim that he is Mexican and have changed his "nationality" to 'Mexican-American". Andy was born in the united states of America and he correct and accurate nationality is AMERICAN. wikipidida should reflect accurate information and not allow trolls to make changed with false information and then lock and account to prevent the truth to be told. please make this changes. 2605:E000:3F54:CB00:55C9:92FE:C878:9952 (talk) 20:08, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Please feel free to join the discussion immediately above this request. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 20:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

So all the media outlets referring to him as Mexican are trolls, are they? I love a self-fulfilling message Scf1985 (talk) 09:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

He is technically Mexican-American, American-born of Mexican heritage. Although he does pride himself more than that by stating that he is Mexican on numerous occasions. KhakePakeVatan (talk) 12:21, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• He is also a Mexican-born citizen. Per Article 30 of the Mexican Constitution, Ruiz is a Mexican-born citizen like anyone else born in Mexico. One of the requirements for people born abroad is that one of their parents is born in Mexican territory (in this case, Ruiz's family is from Mexicali, so he qualifies). That is why Ruiz was able to represent Mexico in Beijing 2008. MX (✉ • ✎) 19:30, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

He wasn't born in Mexico. Mexican-American is an ethnicity, not a nationality. His nationality is American. --Michig (talk) 17:20, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

• @Michig: He's actually has Mexican nationality too, so in my opinion the most appropriate phrase for the lead would be "US-born Mexican". Anyone born abroad to parents born in Mexican territory is considered Mexican-born citizens (mexicanos por nacimiento), just like anyone else born in Mexico. Ruiz doesn't need to be born in Mexico to be a Mexican-born citizen. MX (✉ • ✎) 18:32, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

• If it is confirmed that he has Mexican citizenship (not just that he qualifies for it) as well as US citizenship, then Mexican/American or American/Mexican would be good for nationality. 'US-born Mexican' suggests he isn't an American citizen. --Michig (talk) 19:46, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

He competed in the Beijing 2008 qualifiers representing Mexico. He couldn't have done this if he didn't have Mexican citizenship. MX (✉ • ✎) 20:51, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Photo

What has happened to his photo at the top of his page? Why has it been taken off? Scf1985 (talk) 06:38, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

• It was not released under free domain, so it was deleted. MX (✉ • ✎) 15:01, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Nationality issue

Delete if necessary but I thought I’d create a new section for this issue. Currently Ruiz Jr. is listed as a American fighter on majority of sanctioning bodies and unofficial ranking sites. BoxRec, Transnational Boxing Rankings Board, IBO, WBA, and WBO all have him listed as fighting out of the United States. IBF, WBC, and The Ring Magazine only have him under Mexico. Surely in this matter the majority should be in favour shouldn’t it? Does anyone oppose? Also another factor is in fact he was born in California and still currently resides there. Kidsoljah (talk) 12:18, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

No, the majority shouldn't rule. He can be a citizen of both countries. The current wording "American-born Mexican" suggests he isn't an American citizen, as User:Michig said above. How about "American and Mexican"?--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:55, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2019

Andy Ruiz Jr., professional boxer WBA, IBF, WBO and IBO Heavyweight Champion was actually born in Brawley California which is in Imperial County. Source: Andy Ruiz Jr. says so himself in Estadio Videos ESPN interview. 104.220.3.148 (talk) 03:37, 28 July 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: I'm hesitent to perform this change due to the current source, https://www.premierboxingchampions.com/news/andy-ruiz-jr-marked-victory, talking directly about Imperial the city, also with quotes from Ruiz, especially since I can't find this interview. --Trialpears (talk) 21:24, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

Five Kids

He has five kids according to the WSJ I think he also mentioned his kids in his Joe Rogan interview. Brutusmeolecock (talk)

References

Requested move 8 February 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerium (talk) 18:27, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

---

Andy Ruiz Jr. → Andy Ruiz – The boxer is commonly known as simply "Andy Ruiz". Tbf69 userpage • talkpage 17:43, 8 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per most of the sources in the article and his Twitter and Instagram accounts. – ².O.^Boxing 12:01, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose per above. 162 etc. (talk) 16:16, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Nationality needs to be addressed

Mexican is a nationality not an ethnicity, Mexico is a multiethnic, multiracial, multicultural nationality and a culture of its own, it is not a "ethniciry/race" andy was born and raised in the u.s.a and doesn't even have dual citizenship, he is not "Mexican" he is just "American" for lack of a better word, it should be changed, what's next people are going to start calling "Canadian" a ethnicity/race? Lol 69.14.88.138 (talk) 02:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)