Talk:Andrej Kračman

Accurate and full name first in BLP lede

Putting this on a couple of Talk pages. WP:Manual_of_Style/Biographies#First_mention states:

"While the article title should generally be the name by which the subject is most commonly known, the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known."

None of the examples given in the guideline support the way this article first line is formatted. In ictu oculi (talk) 10:55, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Isn't the subject's full name given in the lead paragraph? Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:13, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

Not in the format François Mitterrand in the MOS guideline.

But I think the egregious item in this case is that 'c' alone in Slovene is "ts", so without the hacek, normaly in Slovenia BLPs on en.wikipedia, the correct pronunciation Kratchman becomes Kratsman. I know that native English speakers are under no obligation to make any effort to spell or pronounce East European names correctly, but Kračman does give those English-speaker readers who want to pronounce the name correctly a hand, and again it is normal practice on Slovenia BLPs. See Category:Slovenian footballers. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:11, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Kracman/Kračman

If the subject of this article has created an identity for himself as Kracman (e.g., on his web page, self-promotion, personal documents, etc.) then the name should be spelled with c. This was the case for Louis Adamic (originally Adamič), for example, and (analogously) for the sociologist Arthur Vidich (originally Vidic). On the other hand, if he hasn't done so, then I feel it's inappropriate to replace č with c; compare Guillermo Cañas (not Canas), Marin Čilić (not Cilic), and Anders Järryd (not Jarryd). Doremo (talk) 09:24, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

And he has. Going by English sources, and tennis hierarchy, it is spelled with a "c". His only notability is that he plays tennis or he wouldn't be listed here. When registering for the ITF (the governing body of tennis) he chose the anglicized name of his choice to use in all things tennis. Novak Djokovic chose to add a j to his name under the same scenario. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:14, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm not very convinced by that; many electronic or machine-readable English registration forms only give you 26 letters to choose from, or the registration staff themselves strip the diacritics. I'd rather see his personal web page or his personal Facebook page (not a fan page) or an autograph as evidence that he's identified himself as Kracman and abandoned the spelling Kračman. Doremo (talk) 04:21, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Fyunck your comment, again, below "Per ITF he registered his choice of an anglicized spelling" is deliberately and knowingly misleading Talk by the repeated use of the word "choice." As per previous and lengthy discussion on en.WP, the ITF registration system strips even the "é" from René Lacoste and ö from Björn Borg. It also does other odd things, like adding hyphens into Spanish first names that are not hyphenated like Juan Sebastian. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:47, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

I would guess he has not "abandoned" the foreign spelling, but he is here on wikipedia because he is notable in tennis. Per ITF he registered his choice of an anglicized spelling. All tennis events and authorities spell his name Kracman, and English sources usually do too. When we source these articles those are the type things we use since if at all possible we are to use English language sources. If he was also notable for playing the violin in concert and the music project used different guidelines in their sourcing and notability, then that would be different story. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:56, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

English news sources also usually write Karadzic (e.g., The Guardian, The New York Times) for convenience, but that doesn't make it an appropriate spelling of Karadžić for an encyclopedia article. I'm still not convinced that Kračman has abandoned his č. I think the burden of proof should be on demonstrating that he personally chooses not to use the č, not on what tennis events use as a matter of convenience. Doremo (talk) 12:11, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

No, wiki uses the most common name in English sources, or even the stage name, for article placement. Now in so doing the bios often put the birth name first as opposed to somewhere in the first line which I make sure to do. Some editors don't place all the alternate names... I try to. Also, redirect after redirect puts more pressure on the computer system as a whole as opposed to simply placing it at the most common name that English sources give. It's his official tennis name, it's his most recognizable name, it's his most used English sourced name. In your example, if a person has a multitude of sources that say his name is Karadzic, then surely that name must also be in the lead sentence as a pseudonym. If it's far and away the only source you can really find in English then it should be placed at Karadzic per wiki policy with Karadžić also appearing in the first line. This is an English wikipedia where we use English sources. English names get changed in various foreign wikis to what's common in their language on a regular basis. No complaints when that happens... it makes sense to have it at the common Bulgarian name in the Bulgarian wikipedia. As long as we also show what the original name/spelling is our readers stay informed. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:59, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

The difference is between scholarly and non-scholarly usage. USA Today style would be Karadzic and scholarly style (obviously less frequent) would be Karadžić. That's why you find both styles in English sources. The same should apply to Kracman/Kračman (who is less likely to be covered in scholarly sources). If your vision of WP is populist with spellings of convenience, then it's the "USA Today" model that follows newspaper usage. If it's scholarly with diacritics (as many but not all English encyclopedias are) then it's a different vision. "Most common" doesn't always mean most appropriate for encyclopedic style. Doremo (talk) 03:31, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

As the examples Doremo correctly gives Louis Adamic was an American journalist, he emigrated at 15 years old, fought as an Americn and had never published in Slovene. Likewise Arthur J. Vidich, With a Critical Eye: An Intellectual and His Times states 2009 "Male Child Born in Minnesota My birth certificate lists my name as "Vidich (Male child)," born in the village of Manganese, Crow Wing County, Minnesota, to Joe Vidich born in Slovania [sic] and Polina Peszek [sic] born". This is very different from a Slovene tennis player, Slovene Citizen whose main notability is in Slovenia. There is no evidence whatsoever that Andrej Kračman has created an identity for himself as Kracman (pronounced kratsman), web-index player cards of ITF are non-WP:RS sources. Compare http://www.diplomatic-corporate-services.si/services/sport-culture-leisure/tennis-courts/breskvar-tennis-academy.php which says "The aim of Academy is to breed active tennis players. We also keep the tennis school and kindergarten for the youngest tennis. Let us mention just a few "of our" Top: Live Grašič, Petra Rampre, Andrej Kračman, Janez Semrajc..."

As for this edit summary

(cur | prev) 08:31, 29 March 2012‎ Fyunck(click) (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (1,765 bytes) (0)‎ . . (Fyunck(click) moved page Andrej Kračman to Andrej Kracman over redirect: move against consensus, tennis guidelines, ITF, ATP and other English sources.) (undo)

Firstly WP:CONSENSUS has to be demonstrated, WP:CONSISTENCY with category:Slovenian male tennis players etc. etc. would indicate that consensus is on the side of accurate spelling and pronounciation of BLPs for sportspeople. Secondly, "tennis guidelines" are not in place - given that tennis editors disagree among themselves, and thirdly ITF, ATP and other English sources are not WP:RS. WP:RS clarifies what is a reliable source for an encyclopedia. Note for example that in this academic publication the Slovene folk-song collector Matevž Kračman retains the full Slovene spelling. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:37, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Gerard Solves - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 03:41, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Gérard Solvès - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 18:21, 9 May 2012 (UTC)