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2nd Temple period synagogues

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I made a larger edit today, which was surprisingly contested and almost entirely reverted by my dear colleague Debresser.

Here are my arguments, one by one.

Why a distinct paragraph about "Second Temple Period synagogues". The pre-/post- 70 CE distinction is essential. Pre-70 CE synagogues are of high interest to both Jews (before Yavneh and Yohanan ben Zakkai they only served as place of reading the Bible, not for prayer), and Christians (Jesus preached in many of them).

I used the term Land of Israel in the context of ancient synagogues because synagogues are, by definition, places of religious activity, and in Judaism the religious activities within the halakhically clearly defined borders of the "Land of Israel" are radically different from those outside these borders. The Byzantine-era mosaic of Rehob, among others, proves how well-aware Jews were of these borders, even if they meant economic hardship (sabbatical year obligation of [not] harvesting the fields), and even in times when no worldly authority was around to enforce them - on the contrary, when defining oneself as Jewish led to persecution.

The Capernaum synagogue as "the best preserved" one: a) The older (basalt) structure is not proven to be a synagogue, and is anything but well-preserved. The comment only refers to the 4th-century "white synagogue", which is not made clear. b) The 2012 comment is outdated. Umm el-Kanatir can easily contest the title: a 2-floor structure that seems to be pretty much complete to the last stone; is being reconstructed by an Israeli archaeologist who has already reached the 2nd floor level. It was found collapsed, but the "white synagogue" of Capernaum was also reconstructed by Franciscans using collapsed elements, there was almost nothing left standing when they first arrived. c) It's a silly topic to begin with.

"Gamla - oldest known Palestinian synagogue": maybe as of 2012, but outdated by now - see Modi'in's Kh. Umm el-Umdan, dated to the end of the 2nd c. - beginning of the 1st c. BCE.

Migdal/Magdala: Magdala is the Aramaic name, which was in use at the time when the synagogue was built. It is also how the most recognisable name associated with it came to be: Mary Magdalene = Mary of Magdala. So adding it makes perfect sense. FYI: Migdal (Hebr.), Magdala (Aramaic), al-Majdal/el-Mejdel (Arabic).

Adding "Tulul Abu el-Alayiq" to "Wadi Qelt": That's how it's known from those who discovered it, i.e. Ehud Netzer & Co. The Wadi is long, the site's name is Tulul Abu el-Alayiq, period. There are many sites in Wadi Qelt, which are not at Alayiq.

Added"refers to the modern State of Israel" next to the link Ancient synagogues in Israel: WHO can really be bothered by this?!! OK, and beyond that: Making a clear distinction between State of Israel and in the scope of the two pages dealing with Ancient synagogues in Israel and Ancient synagogues in Palestine is more than needed. Israel is shorthand for Jacob, the children of Israel, the Land of Israel, the United Monarchy, the northern kingdom, AND the modern state. Sufficiently argued? Concrete case of confusion: I looked up smth. on the "Israel" page and thought I'm reading a Hamas brochure till I understood that it's an (as such almost useless) sub-page of the larger "Palestine" page, which was only mentioned at "Also see", a category easily missed by most. Arminden (talk) 18:36, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To start with the easy replies: The article is at Migdal Synagogue. Alternative names can be added there, with sources. Wadi Qelt is perhaps not the most precise name, but it is the name of the synagogue, and that is enough. Wadi Qelt Synagogue is also linked, and more details can be found in that article. No problems with the see also's.[1] Debresser (talk) 19:09, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Does this[2] lay your worries to rest? I simply implemented the same solution as here on Ancient synagogues in Israel. Debresser (talk) 19:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have also no problem with clarifying that Gamla is not the oldest any more, but only if you find a reliable source for that. Debresser (talk) 19:14, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

2nd Temple Period Syn.: list needed

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I introduced the following sub-paragraph, and Debresser removed it for formal reasons (not discussed on talk-page). I am convinced - no, I know - this info is needed and useful, so I place it here so it can be reintroduced by whoever as soon as the opposition to it ceases. Of course, reference and reformatting as a table can only enhance it, but that's how material usually makes it into articles: step by step. As it is, it's already a) up-to-date and complete, b) properly linked to WP articles, and c) useful to students and other users, which should always be our main (if not only) criterium. Cheeres, Arminden (talk) 06:24, 19 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Second Temple Period synagogues

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Here is a list of all the structures from the Land of Israel discovered so far and interpreted by some as Second Temple Period synagogues. The list is set up in a tentatively chronological order according to the excavators' estimate of the time of construction.

Location -- Built; in use till -- Discovered by -- Comments/reservations

-- Also suggested --

  • Qumran (two gathering rooms) -- around 100 BCE (?) -- highly contested; if indeed a synagogue: of a sectarian type
  • Chorazin -- found in 1926 by Jacob Ory 200 metres west of 3rd-century CE synagogue; exact location unknown until now
  • Shuafat -- structure excavated in 1991 by the late Alexander Onn, who dated it to early 1st century-31 BCE; insufficiently published, some claim the "case evaporated" and the "claim should be withdrawn"
My problem is with the "in Palestine" part of some of these synagogues. Is Masada in Palestine, or Capernaum, or Tel Rechesh, Chorazin or Qumran? Capernaum, Chorazin and Masada are already in Ancient synagogues in Israel. Debresser (talk) 16:05, 19 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I updated the list and added sources. I added an intro regarding the fact that Second Temple period synagogues served a different purpose than those in use after 70 CE.

Debresser: "Palestine" is clearly defined here in the lead as Palestine (region), which is about the same as the Land of Israel. Nothing to do with modern politics. So then yes, Masada, Capernaum, Tel Rekhesh, Chorazin, Qumran are indeed in this geographical region. Btw, Ancient synagogues in Israel is a lost case, utterly abandoned, incomplete, and I dare say, useless, since the "politically correct" camp disconnected it from its logical & archaeological context - leaving us now with this article instead. I linked that article by hattag or what it's called to this, and that's all one can do. Arminden (talk) 14:13, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Golan WAS, in the relevant period, part of the Palestine region

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The Golan Heights were - all or partially - part of: the ancient Kingdom of Israel, Alexander Jannaeus' Hasmonean kingdom after his last campaign, Herod's kingdom, his son's Philip the Tetrarch's realm (in Jesus' time!), Syria Palaestina, Palaestina Secunda... Golan was for a looong time undisputed part of Palestine. Just check the scholarly sources in the "References": Gamla synagogue had the most seating places IN PALESTINE. Etc. The synagogues we're talking about here are precisely from these periods: the Hasmonean, Herodian, Roman and Byzantine periods. When there was a continuum of culture and habitation for Jews from Judaea, Perea, Galilee and Gaulanitis. Enough argued? Meant for Greyshark09 and anyone who mixes up politics with scholarly discussions. Cheers, Arminden (talk) 19:01, 12 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What about Early Muslim to Mamluk or even Early Ottoman sites?

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"Ancient" in English covers everything from before the modern era (19th c., probably the Egyptian invasion is the best time limit). But those can be made part of another category, say "Synagogues in Muslim-era Palestine", to include 638-1918. There are very few examples from the Early Muslim period, about the rest I'm not informed. The Crusader/Ayyubid period is probably not represented, or very little, and about the Mamluk and Early Ottoman periods we need somebody knowledgeable. In Jerusalem there are a few. Arminden (talk) 17:13, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What about "Ancient synagogues in the Land of Israel"?

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Synagogues are a religious institution in Judaism and Samaritanism, where the "Land of Israel", Eretz Israel, is a religious concept with well-defined borders in the specific periods we're talking about, borders which are very relevant in the conduct of religious life (see Laws and customs of the Land of Israel in Judaism). There is no connection whatsoever between the concept of "ancient synagogues in the Land of Israel", which only refers a) to synagogues, and b) to the time span when they flourished, i.e. between the Late Second Temple/Roman period and the Byzantine period, and modern political discussions on what the "Promised Land" encompasses or not. The term Palestine is misleading and out of place in this context, adds nothing, is quite naturally uncommon in academic literature dealing with the topic, and gives rise here to a lot of confusion and to comments like those above, including "why the Golan" etc.. You may also check the Rehov synagogue inscription (section "Legal (halakhic) background") to remember what the topic is about and that the definition was back then literally "set in stone". So for the time period we're dealing with here, "Land of Israel" is not just the correct and very precise term, but a highly significant one in religious practice in Judaism - and we're talking synagogues.

The leading authors in the field wouldn't even consider a different term and regularly split their works in chapters about "The Land of Israel" and "The Diaspora" - see for instance A. Runesson, D. Binder, B. Olsson (BRILL, 2008), The Ancient Synagogue from its Origins to 200 C.E.: A Sourcebook, Steven Fine, ed. (Oxford U. Press & Yeshiva University Museum, 1996), Sacred Realm: The Emergence of the Synagogue in the Ancient World, or Rachel Hachlili (BRILL, 1988), Ancient Jewish Art and Archaeology in the Land of Israel.

So, can we do the right thing and forget for once about "The Conflict" (still not enough capital letters...) when dealing with topics 1.5-2 millennia old? Arminden (talk) 17:24, 3 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Both Runesson and Hachlili use "Palestine" frequently in their books, though you are correct they use "Land of Israel" more often. I don't believe you are correct about "Land of Israel" having precise boundaries or that modern authors work with precise boundaries except ones they adopt for their own convenience (Golan?? Hauran??). The same is true of "Palestine", of course. Personally I'd prefer a more vague term like "Levant". Zerotalk 01:09, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Zero0000:, hi. Please check what I have indicated. There was an extremely clear concept during the Byzantine period regarding which areas are considered to be "land of Israel" under the relevant aspect, i.e.: where do the laws of the halakha apply. It mainly had to do with actual area of Jewish settlement. If you had to give up on your harvest every 7th year, or pay certain substantial tithes and taxes, you'd want to know exactly where you belong. Samaritan areas, the Arava/Arabah, parts of the Phoenician coast which are now in modern Israel, the area of Maresha (lost to the Idumeans after the Babylonian conquest) are clear examples of territories previously part of the Israelite kingdoms, but not part of the halakhical territory of the land of Israel in the Byzantine period. What I am not sure about is how this "map" evolved during the Roman and Byzantine periods, but the vast majority of "ancient synagogues in Palestine" are post-3rd century and fit in perfectly. Of course they would use in English the term Palestine, but check out the headings of chapters, the names used for sections and categories: it's always "land of Israel" vs. "Diaspora", for good reason, based on religious laws, which created the perception and worldview of the time. There were a whole lot of commandments relevant only for the LoI. I learned now looking it up that specifically in synagogues, in LoI weding rings were to be shown, whereas in "Babylon" they were to be kept more concealed. In general, there were LoI-only laws concerning shmita, but not only, all of it discussed in crazy detail in the Talmud. The Rehob mosaic is sensational because it shows exactly how these theological discussions were mirrored into concrete, exact lists of villages & towns and down to specific plots of land, where one was subject of the LoI law and where not, enough so as to lay a huge inscription (29 lines of dense text!) on the floor of the synagogue with such considerations. Nothing decorative about it, a boring list of places, but essential to daily life. A Muslim knew exactly where the Dar al-Islam is, a Christian knew where he's under the jurisdiction of this or that Church authority, and a Jew knew exactly where the "Eretz Israel" laws apply. And they applied according to the actual demographics of the time, so they could change. That's what I'm talking about. It's not about counting how often Hachlili uses "Palestine" in this or that article, that's irrelevant, I mentioned it just for those who don't have the time to read and understand the facts. Arminden (talk) 03:56, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Levant would include far too much. The Jewish synagogue at Dura Europos is in the Levant, but very far from the LoI. The same goes for Cyprus, to show you how far that would stray away. No, it has nothing to do with modern definitions of historical or archaeological regions. It was far, far more concrete and precise than that. I'm not sure any rabbi could tell today where the exact limit was on the Golan Heights, or, as you know, historically the Galilee went up to the Litani River, but the coast has never been Jewish, so which village was "in " and which "out", maybe they know, maybe don't anymore. But there aren't all that many ancient synagogues in such places, I wouldn't worry aboout that. What I want to say: during that time, people knew the boundaries as well as a pre-modern parish priest knew what diocese he belonged to, which families belonged to his parish, and which lands belonged to which family. No more, no less. Arminden (talk) 04:16, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Ever since biblical times there were disputes about where the boundaries of Eretz Israel were. The Rehov inscription is only one definition and even that is vague for much of the border. Eyal Ben-Eliyahu Identity and Territory, discusses this. I'll quote from p200 (epub edition): "An additional dimension of the sages' approach to the land was the principle of the boundaries' elasticity. According to halakhic principles in rabbinic literature, the expansion of Jewish settlement brings with it an increase in the area in which people are obliged to observe priestly gifts and tithes and which is not inherently impure." And he gives examples of the boundaries shrinking too. So you are not correct about the boundaries being certain and fixed. I would say it isn't much relevant, either, since there is no reason to believe that the modern scholars we cite look to the Byzantine meaning of Eretz Israel in deciding how to organize their books. It's more likely they use Eretz Israel in its modern fuzzy meaning, which is more or less synonymous with Palestine. Zerotalk 10:26, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. We're saying the same. The comparison with the "parish", to use Christian terms, is a very good one. It can be dissolved, it can be merged, it can be moved to another bishopric, so yes, it evolves with time (see my example with Maresha). But at the given time, people know very well where it belongs, and as long as there's a Christian congregation there, it will be part of the Church realm, period. In our case, since the halakhic definition was dependent on Jewish presence, the changes were substantial only in times of large demographic change, which essentially came as a result of war, see Babylonian conquest and result of revolts in the Roman period. No such thing in the Byzantine period. There was very little appetite among Jews to participate in Samaritan revolts, and those were the big events of the time, nothing else happened between Constantine and the Muslim conquest that would have had a serious effect on Jewish demographic patterns.
But this conversation between two non-specialists is a bit funny. Yes, I do believe that we shouldn't make decisions if we're not familiar with the basic facts. But we can and should use as a guide those who do know the topic in and out, and they clearly and consistently use the two categories, "synagogues in the land/Land of Israel" versus "Diaspora synagogues". This was the reality, and it's sufficiently well studied. Like always, there are parallel geographies: Christian dioceses, Jewish Eretz Israel, Byzantine administrative units, regions dominated by "Greek" cities, Samaritan-majority areas in and outside Samaria, these all existed simultaneously and their boundaries never overlapped. But when discussing Jewish synagogues, the relevant point of reference is LoI. One can only discuss how Samaritan synagogues relate to this point of reference in a time when there were lots of them, and it's an interesting one, but that point hasn't even been raised yet. The official administrative provinces were mainly the two northern Palaestinas, no doubt about it, and the region is "Palestine" since 70 CE and the term is used with this meaning by the authors; that doesn't contradict in any way the connection (Jewish) synagogues - Land of Israel vs Diaspora. Fact, like the two Talmuds are a fact: one is called in Western usage the Palestinian Talmud and in Jewish usage the Jerusalem Talmud, even if it originates in the Galilee, and the other one is the Babylonian Talmud, after the main Diaspora, where it did indeed originate ("Babylonia" being yet another anachronistic term used in Judaism, but well-established and never put in doubt in the West; or on Wiki). Western scholars were early in establishing the term Palestinian Talmud, never used by Jews; opposed to that, there is no firmly established Western term "synagogues of Palestine", but there is a better established one "synagogues in the Land of Israel", because nowadays research is more advanced and local realities usually trump attempts at setting standards from outside. Except on Wikipedia, where far smaller majorities can change that. There is a meaning for "Palestinian synagogue", that refers to such frequented by Palestinian Jews in the Diaspora, as opposed to Greek-speaking or other local categories of Jews. But that's something else, and a possible source of misunderstanding, although what we have here is "in Palestine", not "Palestinian", but the step is short and leads in the wrong direction.
I can live with both solutions –without agreeing, not for uncalled-for political reasons, but for the explained ones of historical reality–, I just see myself making mistakes again and again when I'm adding or moving this or that site to/from a list in a hurry, because more often than not "Palestine" is code for West Bank and Gaza. For me the current title doesn't work well, neither academically, nor in practical terms. Those who support it most likely do it out of a political reflex, but are paradoxically not from the camp of those much interested in dealing with historical Jewish presence in the area. So it's in a way very funny, like any paradox, and worth a permanent smile. I think I have nothing useful to add. Arminden (talk) 13:39, 4 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Today I've lost it, far too many words, the breaks went loose.
"It's more likely they use Eretz Israel in its modern fuzzy meaning" - not the good authors we care to quote. And I think you're talking in general. I'm strictly referring to "ancient synagogues in Palestine". They all date to the Roman (very few, just a handful) and Byzantine periods (almost all belong to the latter). In the context of Byzantine-period Jewish synagogues, the Jewish religious concept of where the laws of the Land of Israel apply is very clear and the boundaries don't move much, because the Jewish settlement area is not changing much. It was a matter of set theory again: where "Dan to Beersheba" overlapped with actual Jewish presence. I don't think anything in what I've written now can be contradicted. Again, it wasn't about history, "Promised Land" or anything abstract: it was about not using the fields every 7th year, being allowed or not to purchase and eat certain foods and drink certain wines, selling/leasing specific plots of land, etc., etc., so very numerous and relevant day to day issues. Nobody could be fuzzy about that. And researchers have a good idea where the boundaries were. Also, the Talmud was put to paper in that time span, it was available to local rabbis who applied the verdicts to their immediate area. The issue I don't know anything about is how to cover the Samaritan synagogues under the same title, that is indeed a hole in my argument. Maybe others have an answer to that, but I won't start reading on that topic now. Arminden (talk) 01:50, 5 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Vandalism: protection needed

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Lots of anonymous vandalism lately.

I still believe in what I wrote here-above (see last posting, from 5 Dec 2021), but once we have agreed on a definition, as long as it stands, it should be protected. Who can put in the proper protection? Thanks. Arminden (talk) 10:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It went on today. Is there nobody who can take care of it? Arminden (talk) 15:04, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Diannaa, hi Jeff G., sorry to bother you. In the past you've been very helpful. Any idea please? Thank you, Arminden (talk) 15:07, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The problem is that these synagogues were all built by Jews and Samaritans in ancient Judaea (kingdom or province), after 135 renamed Provincia Palaestina, and in English the established way to call the region is Palestine. This has nothing to do with the Arab Palestinians and their struggle, but writing nowadays about ancient synagogues "in Palestine", while many of them are Jewish historical treasures and within Israel proper, rubs many people the wrong way. No surprise there, but we discussed it and here we are. Arminden (talk) 15:19, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The place to request page protection is WP:RFPP. — Diannaa (talk) 20:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks. Done. Arminden (talk) 21:33, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Sdrqaz. I'm not familiar with {{pp-semi|small=yes}}. I guess it's not related to the protection request, or is it? Thank you. Arminden (talk) 09:47, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is a template that adds a little lock icon in the top right corner when a page is protected. The article has been protected for a week. Sdrqaz (talk) 12:32, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you.
Protected? Doesn't seem to work, not really. Maybe there would have been more vandalism without, that I can't know. But there still is plenty. Arminden (talk) 12:37, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The protection occurred at 02:10, 31 May, so it took effect after your request. Protection isn't retroactive and isn't pre-emptive, so it wasn't in place prior to that. Sdrqaz (talk) 15:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wait. What you're saying doesn't make sense: "The article has been protected for a week", but "The protection occurred at 02:10, 31 May"? That's the shortest week in calendaristic history. Here at Houston we have June 1. Don't know about Alpha Centauri. What am I missing here? Arminden (talk) 21:51, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Look, sorry, you helped out where I didn't know how, technically speaking. All I care for here is not being spammed daily by email alarms about vandalism on this page, which should be a boring, detail-oriented one dealing with some ancient ruins, most of them unspectacular. Arminden (talk) 22:03, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll try to be as clear as possible. When I said that the article has been protected for a week, I meant that it was protected for a week starting from 02:10, 31 May. That means that the protection will expire at 02:10, 7 June, one week after the protection began. Hopefully it'll be clearer looking at the article history. Sdrqaz (talk) 22:20, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Sdrqaz: Well, semi-protected.   — Jeff G. ツ 15:05, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a form of protection, no? Sdrqaz (talk) 15:26, 31 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What about Transjordan?

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Gerasa had a relatively large Jewish community whose synagogue was confiscated in the 6th c. and transformed into a church. Its mosaic floor is well documented, see Synagogue-Church at Gerasa. I am not aware of other synagogue remains in Jordan, but given the fact that the Hasmoneans and Herod ruled over parts of Transjordan, I'd be surprised if Gerasa were the only place. Arminden (talk) 02:12, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Land of Israel/Palestine region

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Eretz Yisrael, lit. Land of Israel, is and has been for at least 2 millennia the name used by Jews. Palestine region is a Wikipedia construct. The ancient synagogues who are the very topic of this article were built by Jews and Samaritans, who have never used "Palestine" in their own liturgical and vernacular languages of the time. It's beyond illogical to remove Land of Israel and keep Palestine region: it's the exact opposite of logical. Not unexpected, but still reaching a level of militant Wiki activism that puts the whole project to shame. When "struggle for the cause" (whichever cause) becomes "struggle against intelligence", Newspeak-style "War is peace. Freedom is slavery. Ignorance is strength" patterns have been hit and we've reached Orwellian rock bottom. Good night eveybody, daylight is far away. Arminden (talk) 23:00, 19 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The area has never had the official name "Land of Israel", it is a biblical name. When these synagogues were built, the name was never "Land of Israel". Saying "Land of Israel" is the exact same thing as saying "Promised Land" or "Holy land". These were never real official names. This is supposed to be an encyclopedia, not right-wing religious propaganda. What do you mean by "Palestine region is a Wikipedia construct"? It is an ancient name of the region and has been used officially many times. Your comment about Jews and Samaritans not using Palestine is original research. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 04:49, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please read what Eretz Yisrael means and when it was used & by whom. Arminden (talk) 15:33, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You also seem to misunderstand the difference between country and (modern) state. Countries or lands can have various names at any point in history; only modern states have official names defined by law. You cannot remove a valid, relevant name relating to certain historical periods (mainly Byzantine, but also Late Hellenistic and Roman) because you personally dislike its modern-day connotations.
We have editors, activist editors, and militant activist editors. They all serve a purpose at Wiki, but activism and militance have limited use when it comes to fields such as ancient history. Arminden (talk) 15:54, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Supreme Deliciousness the question is how these synagogues are referenced in academic literature. Since we're discussing ancient Jewish civilization, it perhaps only logical to also feature the historical Jewish term for the region. Mariamnei (talk) 05:32, 4 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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