Talk:American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers

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Composers

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Apriltools (talk · contribs) has been paid by ASCAP on their behalf. Their editing has included contributions to this article.
Stephanie BINK (talk · contribs) has been paid by Beutler Ink on behalf of ASCAP.
ASCAPedia (talk · contribs) has been paid by ASCAP on their behalf. ASCAP employee Etan Rosenbloom, per self-disclosure

Early Radio

"Radio stations originally only broadcast performers live, the performers working for free. Later, performers wanted to be paid and recorded performances became more prevalent."

This makes no sense. Some performers played for free at various times in exchange for advertising their upcoming live venue performances, but certainly plenty of early radio performers were paid. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.198.3.57 (talk) 17:28, 28 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Karaoke

How can they POSSIBLY charge karaoke places to perform songs? Say I have a karaoke machine with 6000 songs. Does this machine submit which song is played back over the internet to a central server? I don't think so. This money they collect must be randomly distributed. If you are an obscure artist on a karaoke machine, you're not going to see much of it, if any, are you? 68.167.161.182 (talk) 01:38, 2 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ASCAP has been harassing a bar owner near me, regarding karaoke. Considering that most karaoke collections are already copyright nightmares (unauthorized covers performed by no-name bands), how can they justify threatening lawsuits? I do not understand how the original artist or the no-name performer could possibly receive any benefit from bars giving money to ASCAP. I'd be interested in seeing more information about this subject. 68.13.125.163 (talk) 03:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Awards

What is meant by the phrase, "ASCAP has an extensive awards program?" I know some of the awards listed aren't given by ASCAP. For instance, the Golden Globes are given by the Holywood Foreign Press and the NAACP Image Awards are, obviously handed out by the NAACP. Am I right about this list being off, or is there something I'm missing? --djrobgordon 06:11, 19 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, "extensive" is an accurate description as it does not mean "all-inclusive." Also, the term was meant to refer to the number of music-related awards hosted by ASCAP, of which I think are many considering it is just one organization. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Jabberwiki (talk • contribs) 01:59, 20 January 2006 (UTC).[reply]

Article name

As can be verified on the ASCAP website, there is no comma after "Authors" in the full name of the American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers. When I attempted to fix this, I found that the correct article title is used as a redirect to the wrong one. — Athaenara ✉ 00:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(Request posted on Wikipedia:Requested moves#Uncontroversial proposals. — A. ✉ 01:05, 10 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

(Fixed by GTBacchus. — A. ✉ 08:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC))[reply]

CMA/ASCAP award for Adventurous Programming

Can information about the CMA/ASCAP award for Adventurous Programming be added? 131.123.231.143 21:08, 30 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

needs some discussion of anti-trust issues

ASCAP has long been controversial on antitrust grounds, as an organization dedicated to copyright pooling by ostensible competitors. They've been sued numerous times, and have lost some cases while winning others. An overview of this would be useful. A few references that specifically discuss ASCAP-related cases (as opposed to only the more general copyright-pooling issue):

"Copyright Pooling and the Anti-Trust Laws". The University of Chicago Law Review. 17 (1): 183–194. 1949.
"ASCAP and the Antitrust Laws: The Story of a Reasonable Compromise". Duke Law Journal. 1959 (2): 258–277. 1959.
Ted K. Ringsred (1992). Is Anticompetitive Misuse a Defense to Copyright Infringement?. ASCAP Copyright Law Symposium 39. pp. 165–200.

--Delirium 16:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nimbit

Added info about Nimbit partnership. Included redlink because I'm in the process of writing the article now. ~kevin ^talk_email 17:43, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

All set, no one even SAW that redlink :) ~kevin ^talk_email 18:56, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

payments to artists?

How do they determine how much a composer should get? I would think "Blowing in the Wind" would be worth quite a bit more than some forgettable one-hit-wonder, but also that it would be dependent on the times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.63.82.53 (talk) 12:47, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Copy-edit recommended

This article reads inconsistently. Of particular note: the Non-exclusive section is mostly written in the 2nd-person. ~E 74.60.29.141 (talk) 21:20, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, this article needs to be rewritten. I found nothing about ASCAP's battles with BMI during the payola scandal era of the late 1950's and ASCAP finally realizing that rock was here to stay and try to attract more rock/R&B/country acts culminating with Motown joining ASCAP in 1971. Also, check out this source which seems to be the definitive ASCAP history book. [1]. Steelbeard1 (talk) 13:22, 28 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

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Use after composer's name

In some concert booklet, a composer was announced as John Doe ASCAP. What does this mean? Wikispaghetti (talk) 20:48, 27 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

400% rates increase - source?

Between 1931 and 1939, ASCAP increased royalty rates charged to broadcasters more than 400%.

I came to this article from Lawrence Lessig's TED talk. He mentions a more than 400% increase, and that's the only citation. It's not so reliable, as all he shows is a graph with no references. It's also the only source for the same claim in ASCAP boycott. I'll leave a message there as well. Y. Dongchen (talk) 10:52, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some update requests

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Done

Specific text to be added or removed: Lead Section replace first paragraph

The American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers (ASCAP) (/ˈæskæp/) is a United States not-for-profit performance-rights organization (PRO) that collectively licenses the public performance rights of its members' musical works to venues, broadcasters, and digital streaming services.

Reason for the change: A more modern description of the types of licensing covered
References supporting change: ^[1]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Done

Specific text to be added or removed: Lead Section third paragraph replace text

In 2021, ASCAP collected over US$1.335 billion in revenue and distributed $1.254 billion in royalties to its members. ASCAP membership included over 850,000 songwriters, composers and music publishers, with over 16 million registered works.

Reason for the change: Updates 2019 data to 2021 data
References supporting change: ^[2]^[3]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Done

Specific text to be added or removed: Non-exclusivity

Remove section

Reason for the change: The passage is largely unsupported and the fact that a U.S. performing arts society does not cater to artists covered by societies in other countries is unremarkable. I suspect that the Creative Commons mention in this passage may have had current events relevance ten years ago. That event is covered in the Criticism section.

@Maddy from Celeste: and @ABT021: I am pinging you because you have shown an interest in this topic ASCAP and you have made edits on my behalf (Thank You!). Would you be so kind as to take a look at the Non-exclusivity section? It appears to be WP:SYNTHESIS, and if not, it appears to have too much prominence as the first section after the lead (Above the History section). A citation that is missing from the section is here, A BILL OF RIGHTS FOR SONGWRITERS AND COMPOSERS.

Here is what I see when I read the section...

Unlike collecting societies outside the United States,^{[citation needed]} ASCAP contract is non-exclusive[2] and although it is not so simple for a foreign person to join ASCAP, it is possible.^{[citation needed]} ASCAP has an office in the United Kingdom.[3] As the artist agreement is non-exclusive, authors can license using a Creative Commons license. The ASCAP bill of rights^[vague] states, "we have the right to choose when and where our creative works may be used for free". If an author is going to use a Creative Commons license with another's works, this is the only author's rights organisation that has a non-exclusive contract that a foreign person can join.^{[citation needed]} If an author uses a Creative Commons license and is not a member of a performing rights organisation and the works would generate royalties, these royalties are collected and given to publishers and artists that are members of the se organisations.^{[citation needed]} ASCAP is not a governing agency and as such has no right to fine and/or collect royalties on behalf of the artists that it allegedly represents.^{[citation needed]}

Sorry to bother you, but moving, improving, or deleting this section would greatly improve the readability of the article imho. My vote would be to delete. Thank you for your efforts and edits. Apriltools (talk) 05:11, 3 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References supporting change:

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Specific text to be added or removed: Boycott section remove unsupported sentence

~~Upon the conclusion of litigation between broadcasters and ASCAP in October 1941, ASCAP was legally required to settle for a lower fee than they had initially demanded.~~

Reason for the change: The cited source does not say this, it says the royalty fees were negotiated directly with the broadcasters and ASCAP.
References supporting change: ^[4]

Partly done: I dug up a copy of the source; it does say they settled, so I changed it to say that.

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Done

Specific text to be added or removed: Section Antitrust lawsuit

Rename section to Consent decree

Reason for the change: Consent degree is the common vernacular for the legal framework for both ASCAP and BMI. These may have started with a lawsuit, but the DOJ recommended in 2021 that the decrees be reviewed every five years in light of changing technologies.
References supporting change: [4]

Thank you! Apriltools (talk) 03:34, 23 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ "Music: Publishing & PROs – VLAA". vlaa.org. 2021-05-11. Archived from the original on 2021-05-11. Retrieved 2022-03-23.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: unfit URL (link)
^ "ASCAP Delivers Record-Setting Revenues and Distributions to Songwriters, Composers and Publishers For 2021". www.ascap.com. 2022-03-03. Archived from the original on 2022-03-06. Retrieved 2022-03-23.
^ Aswad, Jem; Aswad, Jem (2022-03-01). "ASCAP Delivers Record Revenue of $1.3 Billion for 2021". Variety. Retrieved 2022-03-23.
^ Wald, E. (2011). How The Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll: An Alternative History of American Popular Music. Oxford University Press, USA. p. 131. ISBN 978-0-19-975697-1. Retrieved 2022-03-23.

Millard Fillmore

Given that Millard Fillmore died 40 years before the founding of ASCAP, it is hard to understand how he could have been one of the founders of the organization. Perhaps the name and the link to Millard Fillmore, the 13th President of the USA, were accidental and were intended to be for someone else. In case that might be true, I will leave it for someone else to correct, as I don't know what might have been intended. Mark C Carlson 16:47, 30 December 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Markccarlson (talk • contribs)

Edit request 2022 data

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Specific text to be added or removed:

In the lead, third paragraph, please adjust the following.

In 2021, ASCAP collected over US$1.335 billion in revenue and distributed $1.254 billion in royalties to its members~~. ASCAP membership included over 850,000 songwriters, composers and music publishers, with~~ having over 16 million registered works.

And add the following.

ASCAP membership surpassed 900,000 and revenues exceeded $1.5 billion in 2022.

Reason for the change: Updating 2022 published information
References supporting change: ^[1]

Apriltools (talk) 20:09, 5 July 2023 (UTC) Apriltools (talk) 20:09, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Aswad, Jem; Aswad, Jem (2023-03-08). "ASCAP Posts Record $1.5 Billion in Revenue for 2022". Variety. Archived from the original on 2023-03-26. Retrieved 2023-07-05.

Reply 5-JUL-2023

Edit request declined

The proposed lead section contains a sentence which is worded in a way as to suggest that the 1.254 billion in royalties is paid only to individual members having over 16 million registered works (e.g., "In 2021, ASCAP collected over US$1.335 billion in revenue and distributed $1.254 billion in royalties to its members having over 16 million registered works."). The provided reference does not confirm the statement as it is written.
If this is in error, kindly rewrite the sentence and resubmit your proposal in a new edit request below this reply post.

Regards, Spintendo 22:29, 5 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Spintendo:, the supporting reference(s) for the 2021 data is already in the article (number 3 and 4) so I did not repeat them in my edit request. Reworded, the finished paragraph request / edit would look like this...

In 2021, ASCAP collected over US$1.335 billion in revenue and distributed $1.254 billion in royalties to rights-holders, ASCAP maintains a registry of over 16 million works.3 4 ASCAP membership surpassed 900,000 and revenues exceeded $1.5 billion in 2022.5

Thanks for responding to this so promptly, I hope this clears things up. Apriltools (talk) 06:32, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

additional edit --> Apriltools (talk) 07:44, 7 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request -- third attempt -- 2022 membership data

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Specific text to be ~~added or removed~~ replaced in lead section, 3rd para :

In 2021, ASCAP collected over US$1.335 billion in revenue and distributed $1.254 billion in royalties to rights-holders, ASCAP maintains a registry of over 16 million works.^[1]^[2] ASCAP membership surpassed 900,000 and revenues exceeded $1.5 billion in 2022.^[3]

Reason for the change:

update year 2022 membership data

References supporting change:

all references included in passage above (shown below)

Apriltools (talk) 19:45, 9 September 2023 (UTC) Apriltools (talk) 19:45, 9 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Apriltools, I hate to be a stickler for punctuation, but your proposed statement In 2021, ASCAP collected over US$1.335 billion in revenue and distributed $1.254 billion in royalties to rights-holders, ASCAP maintains a registry of over 16 million works. is a run-on sentence because there is a comma after the word rights-holders. Please rewrite the sentence so that it is grammatical. Regards, Spintendo 21:58, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request -- second attempt -- 2022 membership data

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Specific text to be ~~added or removed~~ replaced in lead section, 3rd para :

In 2021, ASCAP collected over US$1.335 billion in revenue, distributed $1.254 billion in royalties to rights-holders, and maintained a registry of over 16 million works.^[1]^[2] ASCAP membership surpassed 900,000 and revenues exceeded $1.5 billion in 2022.^[3]

Reason for the change:

update year 2022 membership data

References supporting change:

all references included in passage above (shown below)

Apriltools (talk) 19:02, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ ^a ^b "ASCAP Delivers Record-Setting Revenues and Distributions to Songwriters, Composers and Publishers For 2021". www.ascap.com. 2022-03-03. Archived from the original on 2022-03-06. Retrieved 2022-03-23.
^ ^a ^b Aswad, Jem (2022-03-01). "ASCAP Delivers Record Revenue of $1.3 Billion for 2021". Variety. Retrieved 2022-03-23.
^ ^a ^b Aswad, Jem; Aswad, Jem (2023-03-08). "ASCAP Posts Record $1.5 Billion in Revenue for 2022". Variety. Archived from the original on 2023-07-05. Retrieved 2023-09-09.

Reply 11-SEP-2023

Edit request implemented Spintendo 21:23, 11 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

1917 Supreme court Case request

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Hi editors, I'm Stephanie. I'm here on behalf of ASCAP as part of my work for Beutler Ink.

My first request for this article is to add a new paragraph to the History section after the paragraph ending with However, an exception was made to admit Irving Berlin. This paragraph is about a 1917 Supreme Court case that is integral to the history of ASCAP but is not currently mentioned in the article:

Extended content

In 1917, the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of ASCAP in Herbert v. Shanley Co. The lawsuit, brought by Herbert, contended that the owner of Shanley's Restaurant in New York City had infringed on Herbert's copyright of Sweethearts by playing music from the play in the restaurant without permission or compensation for Herbert. Shanley argued that because there was no entrance fee for the restaurant performing the music, the performance was not making a profit and therefore did not require compensation for Herbert. The unanimous decision on the lawsuit, written by associate justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., held that any performance of music for profit, including profits tangentially related to the performance, such as the sale of food and drink, required compensation for the original creators of the music.^[1] The decision legitimized ASCAP's continued existence and allowed the organization to more proactively seek compensation for its members.^[2]

References

^ Allen, Leonard (October 1940). "The Battle of Tin Pan Alley" (pdf). Harper's Magazine. Retrieved January 31, 2024.
^ Pollock, Bruce (2014). A Friend in the Music Business. Milwaukee, Wisconsin: Hal Leonard Books. p. 17. ISBN 978-1-4234-9221-4. Retrieved January 31, 2024.

Please let me know what you think! Happy to answer any questions. Stephanie BINK (talk) 21:37, 4 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done 3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 13:08, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Stephanie BINK (talk) 21:48, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup PR

I've discovered considerable amount of organization sourced contents being used to present the organization in light desired by the organization that may not be NPOV and DUE. The way in which the PR role account ASCAPedia added contents go beyond what's appropriate under WP:ABOUTSELF. Their edit was a long time ago, but a lot of it remains. Graywalls (talk) 17:05, 13 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Advent of radio paragraph

The user below has a request that an edit be made to American Society of Composers, Authors and Publishers. That user has an actual or apparent conflict of interest.
The requested edits backlog is low. There are currently 53 requests waiting for review.

Please read the instructions for the parameters used by this template for accepting and declining them, and review the request below and make the edit if it is well sourced, neutral, and follows other Wikipedia guidelines and policies.

Hi editors, for my next request I propose changing the paragraph beginning "The advent of radio" from:

The advent of radio in the 1920s brought an important new source of income for ASCAP. Radio stations originally only broadcast performers live, the performers working for free. Later, performers wanted to be paid, and recorded performances became more prevalent. ASCAP started collecting license fees from the broadcasters. Between 1931 and 1939, ASCAP increased royalty rates charged to broadcasters by more than 400%.^[1]

To

The advent of radio in the 1920s brought an important new source of income for ASCAP. The organization initially offered low licensing fees to foster a partnership between the fledgling medium and ASCAP; however, the licensing fees increased 900 percent between 1931 and 1939. ASCAP said the increases were due to radio curtailing the ability of its members to make money through other venues, such as sheet music and record sales, and decreasing how long hit songs remained hits. Further fee increases proposed for the 1940s led to a boycott of ASCAP and the creation of Broadcast Music, Inc. (BMI).^[2]

References

^ "Lawrence Lessig: Laws that choke creativity | Talk Video". Ted.com. Archived from the original on November 16, 2011. Retrieved May 9, 2014.
^ Cite error: The named reference Harpers was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

(note: the source used is this Harper's article already cited in the live article)

Because:

This corrects incorrect royalty fees
Replaces the source (a TED talk) with a better one (Harper's)
Adds additional context around the licensing fee increase making for a more complete history

Please let me know what you think! @3family6: pinging you here in case you were interested in taking a look at this request since you reviewed my last one. Cheers Stephanie BINK (talk) 21:53, 16 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Stephanie BINK:, you provided a reference that doesn't pull up. Graywalls (talk) 00:27, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Graywalls: the link is to this Harper's article (PDF here). It's already used in the live article so I included the named reference markup in the bullet point and the link to the source below the references box. Hope that helps! Stephanie BINK (talk) 22:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[vlaa.org_2021-1] "Music: Publishing & PROs – VLAA". vlaa.org. 2021-05-11. Archived from the original on 2021-05-11. Retrieved 2022-03-23.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: unfit URL (link)

[www.ascap.com_2021_fin_data-2] "ASCAP Delivers Record-Setting Revenues and Distributions to Songwriters, Composers and Publishers For 2021". www.ascap.com. 2022-03-03. Archived from the original on 2022-03-06. Retrieved 2022-03-23.

[Aswad_Aswad_2022-3] Aswad, Jem; Aswad, Jem (2022-03-01). "ASCAP Delivers Record Revenue of $1.3 Billion for 2021". Variety. Retrieved 2022-03-23.

[Wald_2011_p._131-4] Wald, E. (2011). How The Beatles Destroyed Rock 'n' Roll: An Alternative History of American Popular Music. Oxford University Press, USA. p. 131. ISBN 978-0-19-975697-1. Retrieved 2022-03-23.

[Aswad_Aswad_2023_d946-5] Aswad, Jem; Aswad, Jem (2023-03-08). "ASCAP Posts Record $1.5 Billion in Revenue for 2022". Variety. Archived from the original on 2023-03-26. Retrieved 2023-07-05.

[www.ascap.com_2021_fin_data-6] "ASCAP Delivers Record-Setting Revenues and Distributions to Songwriters, Composers and Publishers For 2021". www.ascap.com. 2022-03-03. Archived from the original on 2022-03-06. Retrieved 2022-03-23.

[Aswad_Aswad_2022-7] Aswad, Jem (2022-03-01). "ASCAP Delivers Record Revenue of $1.3 Billion for 2021". Variety. Retrieved 2022-03-23.

[Aswad_Aswad_2023_e712-8] Aswad, Jem; Aswad, Jem (2023-03-08). "ASCAP Posts Record $1.5 Billion in Revenue for 2022". Variety. Archived from the original on 2023-07-05. Retrieved 2023-09-09.

[Harpers-9] Allen, Leonard (October 1940). "The Battle of Tin Pan Alley" (pdf). Harper's Magazine. Retrieved January 31, 2024.

[Pollock-10] Pollock, Bruce (2014). A Friend in the Music Business. Milwaukee, Wisconsin: Hal Leonard Books. p. 17. ISBN 978-1-4234-9221-4. Retrieved January 31, 2024.

[11] "Lawrence Lessig: Laws that choke creativity | Talk Video". Ted.com. Archived from the original on November 16, 2011. Retrieved May 9, 2014.

[Harpers-12] Cite error: The named reference Harpers was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

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