Talk:American Booksellers Association

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Association of Booksellers for Children was nominated for deletion. The discussion was closed on 29 January 2022 with a consensus to merge. Its contents were merged into American Booksellers Association. The original page is now a redirect to this page. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected article, please see its history; for its talk page, see here.

Merger proposal

I suggest merging the ABFFE page (currently mislabeled as American Booksellers Association for Free Expression) into this page. This page represents the parent organization for the other. Also, both are short articles. Also, in a similar example, the American Library Association's "Office for Intellectual Freedom" which often works hand in hand with the ABFFE, is listed in the ALA page, not on its own OIF page. So there's 3 reasons right there.

Here is Wiki policy on merging pages: WP:MM.

I'll go add the relevant merge tags now to both pages. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 03:10, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~Mild merge~~ No merge – It seems like a good idea to me but I haven't really spent any time trying to figure out what the relationship is between these two organizations. Are they truly separate, each with its own Board and staff? Or combined? Rees11 (talk) 03:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Its About page says this: "The American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression is the bookseller's voice in the fight against censorship. Founded by the American Booksellers Association in 1990, ABFFE’s mission is to promote and protect the free exchange of ideas, particularly those contained in books, by opposing restrictions on the freedom of speech; issuing statements on significant free expression controversies; participating in legal cases involving First Amendment rights; collaborating with other groups with an interest in free speech; and providing education about the importance of free expression to booksellers, other members of the book industry, politicians, the press and the public." --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 06:07, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No merge –An examination of the about pages on the websites for ABFFE (http://www.abffe.com/about.htm) and ABA (http://www.bookweb.org/about/govern/board.html) demonstrates that ABFFE and ABA are two distinct and separate organizations. Each org possesses a unique and separate board of directors; there are no shared officers/employees; and each org has a distinct and different mission. In addition, the two orgs file a separate Form 990. While the ABFFE article needs cleanup, I don't believe a merge is appropriate.Bibliolover (talk) 07:11, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"ABFFE and ABA are two distinct and separate organizations." That is simply false per the About page. Further, the ALA and the OIF are both on the ALA page, yet "Each org possesses a unique and separate board of directors; there are no shared officers/employees; and each org has a distinct and different mission."

Further, Bibliolover is a newbie who makes up facts on the fly to suit his needs. See here, for example. He has made up facts here on the fly as well, even in his first edit here. He is untrustworthy at this point in his small editing career. Let's wait for more editors to respond to the merge proposal. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I provided citations to the appropriate, reliable web sources to back up my statements. ABFFE and ABA are in fact separate organizations; there are two different boards of directors, they file separate tax returns, there are no shared employees. I made up none of these facts, and LAEC's accusations are uncivil and unfounded.

I'd caution LAEC that the fact that ABFFE was founded and spun off by ABA does not mean that it is part of the ABA - the two organizations are clearly separate legal entities - they don't even share the same address.

After examining the ALA website, I'd argue that the analogy to the ALA's Office for Intellectual Freedom is inapt; the OIF is clearly part of the ALA, appears to have no separate budget from ALA, and its staff are ALA employees. In contrast, ABFFE is a separate legal entity from the ABA, with its own board, officers, and mission.--Bibliolover (talk) 07:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Unfounded? Quoting now the ABFFE site's about page, "The American Booksellers Foundation for Free Expression is the bookseller's voice in the fight against censorship. Founded by the American Booksellers Association in 1990...." It not only "founded," but it is explicitly "founded." Withdraw your statement to the contrary. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 07:58, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That ABFFE is the "bookseller's voice in the fight against censorship" doesn't make it part of the ABA; the separate legal existence of the two organizations supports the conclusion that they are two distinct and separate entities. The ABA's about page states that it "exists to protect and promote the interests of its members: independently owned bookstores, large and small, with storefront locations in towns and cities nationwide." Contrast that with ABFFE's mission, which is "is to promote and protect the free exchange of ideas, particularly those contained in books, by opposing restrictions on the freedom of speech; issuing statements on significant free expression controversies; participating in legal cases involving First Amendment rights; collaborating with other groups with an interest in free speech; and providing education about the importance of free expression to booksellers, other members of the book industry, politicians, the press and the public."

I fail to see any facts to support the conclusion that they are one and the same organization; again, I'll repeat that many corporations and organizations spin off separate new entities to pursue distinctly different missions.--Bibliolover (talk) 08:17, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The ABFFE sure reports a lot to the ABA, literally. But, you may be right. I am not a tax expert. Let's hear from others. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling (talk) 08:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of course. I'll only note that the material produced by the Google search appears to show the ABA newsletter reporting on ABBFE activities, rather than showing ABFFE reporting to ABA.--Bibliolover (talk) 07:30, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the point of the proposed merge, and the consensus in the otherwise stalled discussion appears to be against it. I've removed the tags. --Lambiam 11:00, 17 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

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This article is the subject of an educational assignment at Southern Connecticut State University supported by the Wikipedia Ambassador Program during the 2011 Q3 term. Further details are available on the course page.

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list of members

List of ABA members in Wikidata: https://w.wiki/96yc -- M2545 (talk) 22:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

One source template added to article

The majority of the article appears to rely on sources obtained directly from the subject of the article. So the one source template has been added to reflect this, since the source is the organization itself. OIM20 (talk) 01:31, 26 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I pulled external sources for most of the content, and either added them to existing self-published sources, or replaced self-published sources with external ones.

Membership numbers/sources are still largely self-reported. I will look for external reporting on those as well. But overall the page is more balanced now. Removing the one source block for now. Freakusmaximus (talk) 18:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]