Talk:Alley

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Local Words

I know in the regions of the UK there are numerous local words for alleys besides ginnel and alleyway, including gennel, ten-footer and passage. Does anyone object to these being incorporated?

Not I. (By the way, you can sign your posts by typing ~~~~, four tildes.) – Quadell ^{(talk) (sleuth)} 17:57, August 26, 2005 (UTC)

Sounds good to me too, although as a Brit i've never heard of an alley being called a "service road" , and we seem to have missed backstreet, or is that classified elsewhere? --Spacebwoy 16:13, 9 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Chicago is known as "The alley capital of America" and should be a city mentioned in this article. Thank you. 24.12.73.177 11:06, 2 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't want to mess up the article, but in case this information is of use to a future editor I can recall than in England in the 1980s the term was entry in Manchester and ginnel in Oldham. I also note that Twitten has a list which is similar but not the same. Scatterkeir (talk) 09:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for mentioning that. I have integrated the information in twitten (and also in chare and snickelways) into this article, and put links to the "Other terms" section here in "See also" sections of those articles. Fortunately, none of the information was contradictory, so there were no conflicts to resolve. Beyond My Ken (talk) 15:29, 6 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

In my part of Derbyshire an alley between houses was also called a channel which is probably a posh way of saying ginnel. Back streets were generally residential streets away from the main road, often poorer neighbourhoods. Hence my mother, who was insufferably snooty, referred to "back street kids." 81.152.161.62 (talk) 11:16, 2 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A channel or a ginnel was often used for a passage leading to the back of a house though in my village it called an "entry" 217.43.255.190 (talk) 13:26, 4 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Venice

Is it worth mentioning here about the sheer number of alleyways that populate Venice? I wouldn't know where to begin with writing something about it - just a suggestion for anyone that maybe could. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.98.129.30 (talk) 02:30, 6 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation needed

Could someone with more experience than I in these things please set up a disambiguation header? There should be some way to access articles about people with the surname Alley (such as John_B._Alley), or notable places with Alley in the name, from this article. Thanks! Bricology (talk) 23:00, 30 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Recent edit

Apologies to Feline Hymnic for my sloppy speed reading!!Rwood128 (talk) 21:43, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

That's fine. Don't worry. Feline Hymnic (talk) 21:52, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Is Bartholomew Close an alley?

Re the recent query, I too had my doubts (and almost deleted it) as this doesn't conform to my idea of an alley (I'm originally from London). To me an alley should be a narrow, urban footpath. This close is more like a lane (a narrow road, especially a quiet country road) to my eye, especially as it is open to traffic. But I have learnt that alleys in North America can be wider than Bartholomew Close, and are not always for pedestrians only. The residential alleys and the back lanes (alleys) of Boston seem to be about the same width as Bartholomew Close (from online photos), and I would characterize them as very narrow streets, though they are called alleys. It seems that alley (French origin) and lane (Anglo-Saxon origin) are synonyms for a narrow path, street, or road. The defining of narrow is a difficulty. While Bartholomew Close is open to cars it doesn't seem to be designed for more than slow moving local traffic, and that may be another general characteristic of wider alleys. I live in St John's, Newfoundland, and the narrow, down-town pedestian alleys here are called lanes, but so are some in London, I've now discovered. Rwood128 (talk) 15:21, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Alley" is a fairly elastic terms. The alleys in LA run between named streets, parallel and running straight for many, many blocks, and they're wider than some streets here in Manhattan. I guess what makes them "alleys" is that they give service access to the backs of buildings, something that wasn't accounted for in the Commissioners' Plan of 1811, when the Manhattan grid was laid out (which is why we put our garbage out on the street for pickup). Some alleys in Philadelphia are barely a car's width wide (meaning a cart's width when they were established), while others are barely walkable. I would guess that use for service and (relative) narrowness might be important parts of a working definition of what is and isn't an alley, but I don't feel strongly enough about it to shape the article to that definition. BMK, Grouchy Realist (talk) 15:33, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The idea that an alley could be a back lane or a service road never struck me, until recently I discovered this North American usage -- actually I have back lane access behind my house here in Newfoundland, and originally a garage in my backyard, though the laneway is very narrow -- garbage is collected from the front. Philadelphia is a good example of the variation in width. I wonder if the word alley is used for a service lane at all in the U.K. ? Rwood128 (talk) 16:17, 6 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Italy and the rest of Europe

I've been looking for more information on European alleys, as the article is becoming lopsided. I've added more to the section on words in other languages, though I don't fully trust Google translations. There are some fascinating pictures of Italian vicolo on the Italian page (little text), but there isn't really room here for more images. Is it possible to make a simple, regular link to a Wikipedia article in another language? Rwood128 (talk) 13:51, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Alley

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Alley's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "nytimes":

From Serbia: Misha Glenny. "The Balkans Nationalism, War and the Great Powers, 1804–1999". The New York Times. Retrieved 6 April 2010.
From Annapolis, Maryland: Flegenheimer, Matt (March 5, 2012). "Stan Stearns, 76; Captured a Famous Salute". The New York Times. p. B10.
From Libya: Worth, Robert F. (13 May 2012). "In Libya, the Captors Have Become the Captive". The New York Times. Retrieved 24 May 2012.
From New York City: Berger, Joseph (July 19, 2010). "Reclaimed Jewel Whose Attraction Can Be Perilous". New York Times. Retrieved July 21, 2010.
From Portugal: "Portugal’s Debt Efforts May Be Warning for Greece", New York Times, 14 February 2012.
From Jerusalem: Erlanger, Steven (5 August 2005). "King David's Palace Is Found, Archaeologist Says". The New York Times. Retrieved 24 May 2007.
From Sweden: Higgins, Andrew (26 May 2013). "In Sweden, Riots Put an Identity in Question." The New York Times. Retrieved June 2013.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 19:10, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Corrected. Rwood128 (talk) 20:24, 1 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Alleyway which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:00, 13 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Notes

Beyond My Ken I don't fully understand your recent edit. "Notes" seems redundant. There are notes, of course, in amongst the references, so that strictly speaking a separate section could be created for them. Being lazy I'd just delete the heading "notes". Rwood128 (talk) 15:11, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

References are a category of things. In this case, here are notes (i,e, citations) and a bibliography. Each of these has a header to indicate what they are. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:18, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. It was just that I hadn't seen it done like this before. That is I normally see reference and bibliography separated, and occasionally also a separate "Notes" section, as here [1]. I have often found that "references" and "notes" (endnotes) are interchangeable on Wikipedia. However, this is a minor matter. Rwood128 (talk) 19:47, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have also seen it done as you describe, but it's done this way on hundreds of Wikipedia articles as well. Beyond My Ken (talk) 19:52, 14 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

UK

Given that this article's main audience is presumably in the English speaking world, doesn't the original ordering of the sections make more sense than the recent changes? Also the UK section should be placed, out of alphabetical order, at the beginning of the European section. I don't think a Western-centric bias can be avoided, in an English language article, on a topic like this. Asia was a late addition in an attempt to extend the article's coverage. Rwood128 (talk) 17:48, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That is exactly the thinking my reordering was meant to combat :) The more you get used to English Wikipedia not be UK/US centric, the more familiar it will get. Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 07:48, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fictional

User:Meters wrote let's nto start listing supposedly notable fictional alleys when we don't even list notable real alleys. One does not preclude the other. In this case, I do not oppose your revert, simply because the new section was not minimally complete - even only three or five good illustrative examples would make a difference. CapnZapp (talk) 07:45, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The heading "fictional alleys" was confusing. What was proposed was a trivia section of real alleys mentioned in works of fiction. I don't see why an encyclopaedia should include them, unless, perhaps, they have a significant role in a major work of fiction. Meters, please add the missing notable alleys. Rwood128 (talk) 10:43, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Again, I am not opposing your revert. I just wanted to argue against the argument stated in the edit summary. I see no reason why the presence or absence of notable real alleys should impact our decision to list (or not list) notable fictional alleys. Cheers CapnZapp (talk) 11:40, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CapnZapp, not "fictional", but real alleys mentioned in works of fiction. And it wasn't my revert, but Meters. Please read more carefully! As the addition didn't list any examples, Meters's revert was correct. Rwood128 (talk) 12:11, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My comment was addressing the edit summary of the revert, not the action itself. Sorry for mixing up you with Meters. As the addition didn't list any examples, Meters's revert was correct. Yes, this is exactly what I have already stated. CapnZapp (talk) 16:04, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Vietnam

Hi Beyond My Ken, re your recent revert, I was influenced by the image on the linked page, which suggests a narrow street or lane (i.e a right of way regularly used by traffic) rather than what this article focuses on – very narrow rights of way mainly used by pedestrians. The various images shown support this definition. Rwood128 (talk) 13:19, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Not "narrow rights of way mainly used by pedestrians", rather "a narrow lane, path, or passageway, often reserved for pedestrians". The alleys of many cities (Philadelphia and San Francisco come immediately to mind) are used by cars, bikes and other vehicles - even garbage trucks. I see no legitimate reason for the exclusion of the Vietnamese alleys described. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Why are these American "streets" called alleys, if there's a regular flow of traffic? This looks like a useful resource that I hope to read this week <https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/8/16/the-american-alley-part-1-a-hidden-resource>. See also the stub back lanes, or "service lanes". The article can be improved. Thanks.

Australasia

Nrw Zealand appears to have laneways that are very similar to those in Australia. There are numerous separate articles on Australian laneways but I found nothing for NZ. Rwood128 (talk) 21:38, 19 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mews?

A Mews is an access to a row of urban stables. U.K. dialect has many names for alley (alley, with its old French origins, itself being found in the south and east). Ginnel Gunnel Snicket Twitchel Jitty entry cut backs gully … and many others are all regional U.K. names for Alley. Not ’mews’ though. cf. David Crystal for regional variations of ‘alley’ 20040302 (talk) 13:01, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

What's your point? Beyond My Ken (talk) 14:19, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

20040302 can you supply more information about your source, please? I think,Beyond My Ken, that more might be said about the different types of alleys considered by this article. For example there are narrow passages, what the English tend to think of as alleys, I think (I left 55 years ago). Then there are narrow lanes, usually behind houses with vehicular access limited to local traffic, which, I believe, is what the average American calls an alley. There also other narrow lanes that are lined with houses, which normally are not part of the regular road network. A mews might be seen as a subdivision of this type, though with a different history. When I can find time I'll check to see if any clarification is needed here – or even if the article needs dividing? Rwood128 (talk) 20:11, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:Rwood128, hi thanks yep I will get back to you on this. As you say, all the terms I mention for ‘alley’ are generally urban passages not wide enough for a carriage or a car (mews are wide enough, because they had to fit a carriage). The concept of ‘road network’ post-dates the word ‘alley’. I will source, but pls be patient :-) 20040302 (talk) 09:22, 22 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Re-arranged images

Hi Guest2625, Thanks for your recent edits, but could you restore the images that were originally on the left, please. It would make the page more interesting visually. There may also be too many images, though I'm probably guilty for adding them! Rwood128 (talk) 10:46, 4 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You can go ahead and make any layout edits to the article that you want. If I strongly disagree with the placement of a specific image, I will open a discussion on the talk page about the specific image before editing or moving it again. Cheers. -- Guest2625 (talk) 01:09, 5 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]