Talk:Allegro non troppo

Capitalization

Sorry about the capitalization error when I made the page Esn, (though if you look at the poster on the IMDB page, every word is capital, though I think you're right), I'm willing to help expand upon this article for your project, this is my favorite movie. KingPenguin 15:45, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Today, nearly four years after this article's creation, as the main title header, previously Allegro non troppo, is being restored to Allegro Non Troppo, it needs to be emphasized that works of art which retain their original, non-English-language appellations in the English-speaking world, follow English-language orthography (La Dolce Vita, not La dolce vita, El Bruto, not El bruto, Un Chien Andalou, not Un chien andalou). Furthermore, all English-language reference books, including Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide, Steven H. Scheuer's Movies on TV, VideoHound's Golden Movie Retriever, TimeOut Film Guide and Halliwell's Film Guide are unanimous in listing such titles with English-language-style capitalization. The great majority of newspaper and magazine reviewers in the English-speaking world also adhere to this form of titling. Finally, in a sentence applicable to this film's IMDb listing, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Foreign-language films states, "[I]t should also be noted that the IMDb always lists films by their original-language title regardless of how common the translated titles are; therefore it has no bearing on debates regarding which title a film article should have".—Roman Spinner (talk) 04:52, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

I beg to differ with you on the poster spelling for the movie "Allegro non tropo". Unlike Wikipedia, IMDB has gone to great efforts despite allowing only English comments to preserve as close as possible the spelling of all movie names in the original languages if they use the ISO-Latin alphabet. If you check out IMDB as of 2022-May-10 the name they use for the spelling of the movie and as it is on the poster on their page is "Allegro non tropo". I rated the movie a 10 and although the animation quality may not be as high as Fantasia which I rated it an 8. Overall "Allegro non tropo" is a classic along the lines of Fidller on the Roof, and Jonathan Livingston Seagull. I am very stingy on giving movies a 10 at IMDB. hhhobbit (talk) 00:14, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Valse Triste homage

“Valse Triste was paid homage to by Garfield creator Jim Davis in a set of dark comic strips known collectively as the Garfield Halloween Strips.” http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/09/death_of_garfield_my.html 83.20.222.6 05:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The idea is indeed remarkably similar... but is there anything to suggest that he indeed paid homage to the film? From the link that you gave, it seems that he was inspired by simply asking people he knew what scared them the most. Has Davis ever seen this film? Esn 06:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Davis says "the storyline for this series of strips is very similar to the animation segment for Valse Triste from Allegro Non Troppo." See http://www.retrojunk.com/article/show/417/the-death-of-garfield Colin McLarty (talk) 21:25, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Alas, the link to boingboing.net is now 404 Compliant. JDZeff (talk) 07:42, 30 January 2018 (UTC)

Comparison to Disney

"the film's pessimistic view of Western progress (as opposed to the optimism of Disney's original)."

What about Disney's Fantasia was a view of Western progress? This whole article tries too hard to line "allegro non troppo" up with "Fantasia".—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.152.117.164 (talk) 06:30, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Only the fungi are pure

Don't make too much of "the monkey in the film, which tends to kill other creatures". Don't forget the recurring motif of a dinosaur's foot stomping down, crushing the creature it lands on. Mammals and reptiles both kill to survive. Asat 05:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

More specific

Can we possibly be more specific as to which "Concerto in C Major" by Vivaldi we are talking about? He likely wrote several, but two well-known concertos come to mind: the "Concerto for Two Trumpets" and the "Concerto for Mandolin". Is it one of these two, and is it the whole concerto? Also, Dvorak wrote two different sets of Slavonic Dances: Op. 46 and Op. 72. Which one is it? Classicalkid87 16:07, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The Dvorak piece is almost certainly Op. 46, but I can't find which Vivaldi concerto this movie has, specifically. I'll keep looking. -KingPenguin 16:45, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah, it's "Concerto in C major for 2 Oboes, 2 Clarinets, Strings and Continuo". -KingPenguin 16:53, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Erm, I just looked at the list of compositions by Vivaldi and, if I'm not mistaken, he wrote two of them...and they're both in C Major! :b Maybe if it isn't too much trouble you could identify the RV listing and it would take away the confusion. Thanks. (The entire concerto?) Classicalkid87 13:01, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

correction made -- it's RV 559, although movement designation is ambiguous. First movement is larghetto and second is "no tempo indication", but in recordings I found on amazon.com and iTunes music store they are in all but one case recorded as the first movement and indicated "Larghetto - Allegro"--Invinceble (talk) 19:46, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

??? It's identified in the credits as Spring from The Four Seasons; there's an audio on that page of Spring that sounds identical to the piece used in the film. The piece is also known as Concerto No. 1 in E major, Op. 8, RV 269, "La primavera" (Spring)

Wocky (talk) 08:20, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

Article should be moved

Allegro (ma) non troppo (regardless of capitalisation) is first and foremost a musical tempo (and one of the more common too, not that it should matter). This article should be moved to "Allegro Non Troppo (film)" and replaced here by a disambiguation. 151.177.57.131 (talk) 15:25, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

DABs are only needed when there is more than one article with the same title. In this case there is not another article with this title. MarnetteD|Talk 16:04, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

OK. But still this is not the primary use of the term; it's a secondary, derived use. Such a thing, in my opinion, must be made clear without one having to delve into the article. 151.177.57.131 (talk) 16:27, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Oh, I see I might need to clarify: I didn't mean linking the DAB to "Allegro non troppo", but to Tempo. 151.177.57.131 (talk) 16:44, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Again that is not what a DAB page is for. It is only for articles that have the same title. Tempo is not anywhere near the same. MarnetteD|Talk 19:12, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Well, my other argument stands. 151.177.57.131 (talk) 19:42, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Not really. A reader searching for tempo is not going to wind up at this article and vice versa. Please familiarize yourself with WP:MOSDAB. MarnetteD|Talk 19:52, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

To word it another way DAB pages are directional not informative. MarnetteD|Talk 19:57, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 12 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Both sides have more-or-less reasonable arguments here on both the capitalization and disambiguation fronts, so given the split in numbers a no-consensus closure is my only option. (closed by non-admin page mover) Extraordinary Writ (talk) 22:21, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

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Allegro Non Troppo → Allegro non troppo – Per above discussion, proper captialization of Italian ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:04, 12 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 19:16, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

• Move to Allegro Non Troppo (film) per above comments. Allegro non troppo should redirect to Tempo#Basic tempo markings. 162 etc. (talk) 15:50, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  Oppose adding unnecessary "film" disambiguator to the title per WP:OVERPRECISION since there is no other article using the title, not to mention the phrase doesn't even appear anywhere in the tempo article. Neutral on original proposal since both capitalizations appear in reliable sources, although the current title is probably a little bit more recognizable as a proper noun to English speakers. Station1 (talk) 17:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

  Oppose As noted there is no other article using the title. The proposed redirect would leave a reader wondering why they had been sent to the tempo article since the term is not mentioned there. The current capitalization is fine. MarnetteD|Talk 20:27, 12 September 2022 (UTC)

Followup. I seem to have missed what the RFC is actually about. My apologies. I was opposing the page move that added the (film) dab. Since the poster and the DVD use the lower case I Suppot the page move. Again many apologies for the confusion. MarnetteD|Talk 16:50, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• Support move as proposed. Oppose adding disambiguator per above also opposing this. There is no actual target that would require disambiguation therefore don't add per WP:CONCISE and WP:AT more generally. Lowercase title per guidance at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Foreign-language films, which has an example directly comparable to this case here. WP:NCFILM is acknowledged at WP:AT. The casing should be consistent with that in the lead. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:56, 13 September 2022 (UTC)

PS: As Station1 observes that that both capitalizations appear in reliable sources, this would not meet the threshold for capitalisation per MOS:CAPS (and WP:NCCAPS). Cinderella157 (talk) 02:45, 20 September 2022 (UTC)

MOS:CAPS says that "capitalization is primarily needed for proper names..." and this clearly is a proper name (I don't think anyone is disputing that). This isn't the usual uppercase lowercase debate, but a debate about whether English sources render it in English format or Italian format.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:05, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

Actually, it is the title of a work rather than a proper name, which is a distinction but people tend to lump everything that might be capitalised into one pot. Yes, this isn't the usual debate. The prevailing guidance through WP:AT is at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Foreign-language films which would state: ... normally this means the title under which it has been released in cinemas or on video in the English-speaking world. This would be the Italian format? Yes, there are sources that would use the English format but there are English language sources that use the Italian format and of course, non-English language sources predominantly use the Italian format. The definitive guidance at MOS:CAPS is consistent capitalisation in sources. Limiting this to En language sources, it doesn't meet this. At Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Capital letters#Titles of works, it would also state: Capitalization of non-English titles varies by language. Hence, it would guide us to the Italian format. The prevailing guidance and the evidence of mixed usage would lead us to retain the Italian format. Cinderella157 (talk) 00:07, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per Station1 and MarnetteD. This film is listed as "Allegro Non Troppo" in English-language film reference books, such as Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide, Steven H. Scheuer's Movies on TV, VideoHound's Golden Movie Retriever, TimeOut Film Guide or Halliwell's Film Guide. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 01:00, 20 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support since the movie's promotional materials generally present the title lowercase that way, and since both versions appear in reliable sources, caps are not necessary here. Dicklyon (talk) 16:25, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Dicklyon your post seems to be about the use of upper or lower case in the title. Do you support or oppose the page move. Apologies if I missed something in your post. MarnetteD|Talk 16:44, 24 September 2022 (UTC) Sheesh I didn't mean to post this. See my followup post above, Apologies for the ping D. MarnetteD|Talk 16:52, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose per above and WP:UE. English-language renditions exist, and they title the proper name this way. I'm also somewhat persauded by the notion that the lower-case version should redirect to Tempo as suggested, although I suppose the term would have to be added there too first so hold-fire on that one. As a musical marking this enjoys primary topic by long-term significance over a somewhat obscure film.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:39, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 24 January 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Policy and guidelines back the Support position here. As indicated at MOS:FOREIGNTITLE, English orthography is only to be applied to English titles. (closed by non-admin page mover) Bensci54 (talk) 06:15, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

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Allegro Non Troppo → Allegro non troppo – Italian film titles are written in lowercase (except for the first word), whereas English and American film titles are written in uppercase: this must be respected. Note: if the title remains in uppercase, it's mandatory to correct all pages where it's written in lowercase. JackkBrown (talk) 16:46, 24 January 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• Move to Allegro Non Troppo (film). See my comments in the previous RM. 162 etc. (talk) 19:53, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

  Oppose adding unnecessary "film" disambiguator to the title per WP:OVERPRECISION since there is no other article using the title, not to mention the phrase doesn't even appear anywhere in the tempo article. Neutral on original proposal since both capitalizations appear in reliable sources, although the current title is probably a little bit more recognizable as a proper noun to English speakers. Station1 (talk) 17:55, 12 September 2022 (UTC) Station1 (talk) 21:14, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. Works of art which retain their original, non-English-language appellations in the English-speaking world, follow English-language orthography (La Dolce Vita, not La dolce vita, El Bruto, not El bruto, Un Chien Andalou, not Un chien andalou). Furthermore, all English-language reference books, including Leonard Maltin's Movie Guide, Steven H. Scheuer's Movies on TV, VideoHound's Golden Movie Retriever, TimeOut Film Guide and Halliwell's Film Guide are unanimous in listing such titles with English-language-style capitalization. The great majority of newspaper and magazine reviewers in the English-speaking world also adhere to this form of titling. Likewise oppose Allegro Non Troppo → Allegro Non Troppo (film) per Station1. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:37, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose any move. The current style follows the majority of English-language literature on the topic. Binksternet (talk) 23:02, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose – Per Binksternet. Svartner (talk) 02:36, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose Nomination based on fictitious rule. Dimadick (talk) 10:37, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
• Support. Despite the objections above, WP:NCCAPS explicitly supports this change: "If the article is about a creative or academic work (such as a book or other written work, movie, album, song, or composition) with a title in a foreign language, or by a non-English-speaking creator, retain the style of the original for modern works. For historical works, follow the dominant usage in modern, English-language, reliable sources." MOS:FOREIGNTITLE also says to "retain the style of the original for modern works." The title in Italian is Allegro non troppo, and this is a modern work. Most Italian-language titles in Category:1970s Italian-language films follow these rules. It is unclear why this would be an exception. Dekimasuよ! 09:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject Film has been notified of this discussion. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 15:00, 2 February 2024 (UTC)

• Leaning support per Dekimasu. This is not an English-language title. As for Tempo#Basic tempo markings, it does not mention "Allegro non troppo", and this article appears to explain that it is not a common instruction. The article says the corresponding tempo marking would ordinarily be "allegro ma non troppo". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 18:43, 2 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support per MOS:FOREIGNTITLE. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:06, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support move as proposed. Oppose adding disambiguator. There is no actual target that would require disambiguation therefore don't add per WP:OVERPRECISION and WP:AT more generally. Lowercase title per guidance at WP:NCCAPS and Wikipedia:Naming conventions (films)#Foreign-language films, which has an example directly comparable to this case here. WP:NCCAPS is given voice at WP:AT and WP:NCFILM is acknowledged at WP:AT. A search of Google books here belies the statement that all English-language reference books ... are unanimous in listing such titles with English-language-style capitalization. See also Rethinking the Arts after Hegel. A search of JSTOR here shows mixed capitalisation as does this search of google scholar and this search (though a little less specific). Notwithstanding the specific guidance in WP:P&G that would tell us not to fully capitalise this specific term (ie we should not cap per the present title), the general guidance at MOS:CAPS tells us that we would only fully capitalise this if it is consistently capitalised as such in English language sources. The evidence shows that capitalisation in sources is mixed and, in accordance with the general guidance, this title should not be fully capped (ie we should affirm the proposed move). These various search results also show that non is frequently not capitalised, even if the other two words are capitalised. An argument is made pointing to some other titles and falls along the lines of "other stuff exists". On the otherhand, we see a link to Category:1970s Italian-language films (provided above) that the format of the proposed move, if not always followed, is quite consistently followed. The exceptions noted are more outliers than the norm. WP:CONSISTENT supports the proposed move and these outliers should probably be corrected. The prevailing WP:P&G does not support retaining the present capitalisation. The prevailing WP:P&G, at multiple points, and evidence providing a broader view of usage (rather than just a selection of specific examples) would support a move to the proposed title. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:20, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support lowercase per nom and Dekimasu and Michael Bednarek analyses. Dicklyon (talk) 09:39, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.