Talk:Allar, Jerusalem

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Cause

Chesdovi, the template has defined causes for expulsion. "Unsuccessful defense by Egyptian forces" is not one of those causes. Morris documents the cause of this villages depopulation as "Military assault on settlement", not "unsuccessful defense by Egyptians". See here. Please revert your edit. nableezy - 15:46, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The cause was civil war, with two armies battling for the village. Using "M" would negate that fact and the context. Chesdovi (talk) 17:07, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Says you. Benny Morris in a book published by Cambridge University Press says the cause of the depopulation was a military assault on the village. This was not "two armies battling for a village", this was an invasion by paramilitary forces who then proceeded to largely destroy the village after emptying the village of its inhabitants. Your replacing of a reliable source with your personal view is not acceptable on WP. nableezy - 17:16, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

And now you have completely removed the fact the village was depopulated from the article. Explain why your personal views on the causes and outcome of the assault by Jewish forces on this village should replace what reliable sources say. nableezy - 17:18, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, it was the zionist assault depop'ed the village. And sure, BM is using "M" - for easy categorising purposes. But if the article mentions that the Egyptian army was in town, it would be wrong to imply that the village was just emptied without a fight for cleansing purposes. In a war, populations shift, because that's what happenes in war. The presence of the Egyptian army in the village could not be ignored. Chesdovi (talk) 17:27, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That "presence" is not "ignored", as you said it is clearly stated. But the cause of the depopulation was the military assault. And a reliable source says exactly that. You have replaced the cause as given by a reliable source and admitted by yourself in the preceding comment with unsourced commentary not related to the actual cause of depopulation. You further remove the word "depopulated". You have yet to provide a source that backs up what you wrote in the aritlce, that the cause of depopulation was "unsuccessful defense by Egyptian forces" nor have you provided a source that disputes the cause as it was. Please restore the sourced cause for depopulation. nableezy - 17:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

But the cause of depop. was the unsuccessful defense by Egyptian forces! Chesdovi (talk) 16:19, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Again, says you. Benny Morris in a book published by Cambridge University Press says it was the military assault on the village. nableezy - 16:23, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic

Could somebody add the Arabic to the infobox and lead. The word is علار. nableezy - 03:59, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Please open page move discussions here

And open requests at WP:RM. Unilateral page moves invite edit-warring. Thanks. Tiamut^talk 08:13, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

FYI, Walid Khalidi is the source for 17.5 kilometers from Jerusalem.--Geewhiz (talk) 09:00, 13 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Mixup

There is a mixup here between this village and Allar al-Sifla, now called Al-Tannur, Khirbat (I am following Khalidi here). I think most of the Petersen-stuff (the Crusader church) should go into Al-Tannur, Khirbat. The 1264 is about both villages: can stay. Hmm, I have to take a look at the maps and sort out the mixup. Cheers Huldra (talk) 20:32, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

For this place, Khalidi, p266 gives: HA113, Robinson ii, 340, SWP III: 25
For Al-Tannur, Khirbat Khalidi p.320 gives: HA112 robinson ii,340 SWP III: 62

OK: Khalidi gives location grid 154/124 for Al-Tannur and 155/125 for Allar, Jerusalem,
And HA gives p3 'Allar as-Sufla (154/126) on p.112 and p121 al-Fawqa (155/125) on p.113. Now, (as Khalidi must have found out): this is another HA-typo: they should have written p3 'Allar as-Sufla (154/124) on p.112. Look at the maps: there it is clear that p3 is just SW of p121, not NW of it. So; the above 1596 references, as given by Khalidi, are correct.

Petersen (2001), p92 gives as Location 1544.1243 for the "Rectangular Building" he inspected in 1994. I.o.w.: that must clearly be in Al-Tannur, Khirbat
Pringle p47 gives location 1548.1247 for the Crusader Church, again, clearly Al-Tannur, Khirbat

On SWP map 17, this place is named as Allar el Busl: quite large, …but it is not mentioned in SWP-index! However, they do mention ’Allâr es Sifleh (Sh. 17, Ku), ruins,apparently of an ancient church, at,III, 62. The above reference from Khalidi (SWP III p. 25 ) seem correct, though, nothing else named "Ellar" around there. Strange: normally the names in the SWP books always match the names on the SWP maps. And Palmer has 3 different Allar-names on p. 283. Huldra (talk) 22:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hulda. The name of the place you refer to is not Al-Tannur, Khirbat, but Khirbat al-Tannur. See here, for example [1]. Best, --Geewhiz (talk) 20:52, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I know! This is just short-hand....I just copy-paste... Cheers,Huldra (talk) 21:03, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But the name of the article is also backwards. Maybe you should move it.--Geewhiz (talk) 21:08, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should put "Khirbat" first in the names of articles for places whose names usually had "Khirbat". The practice of putting it last comes from Khalidi's book, where it is put last in the headings but first in the narrative. At the moment Wikipedia is inconsistent. I see these: Umm Sabuna, Khirbat, Karraza, Khirbat, al-Wa'ra al-Sawda', Khirbat, al-Tannur, Khirbat — any objection to renaming them? Zero^talk 21:13, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

No objection at all.Huldra (talk) 21:16, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Zero^talk 00:13, 24 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ahh, but the plot thickens. On closer look it turns out that the Khirbet Tannur cited in the article above is a 2nd century Nabataean site in Jordan.--Geewhiz (talk) 21:17, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Khalidi calls it "Khirbat al-Tannur" everywhere....except in the title. So I think we can safely move it, Huldra (talk) 21:22, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ein Tannur was a spring near Allar.--Geewhiz (talk) 21:28, 23 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comment on possible inaccuracy in sub-category, "History"

In the sub-category, "History," the current article is worded: "The operation began on the night of 18-19 October with an attack on the Egyptian Army/Muslim Brotherhood forces stationed in the village to defend it alongside local militia. Great care was taken not to draw Transjordan's Arab Legion into the battle. The Egyptian army was forced to retreat to the west, and several villages southwest of Jerusalem were captured." To the best of my knowledge, there were no Egyptian forces stationed in Allar during the conflict known as "Operation: Ha-Har" in October of 1948. The Egyptian forces were stationed rather in Dayr Aban. Unless it can be shown that there were Egyptian forces in Allar, the above excerpt should be excised, since it gives the impression that it is talking about Allar. In reading a testimony from an Arab resident who fled Allar in October 1948, she says explicitly that she doesn't ever recall seeing the Egyptian army in her village (Allar) during that crisis (Her testimony is brought down in the book, "Adamah Ahuvah," where she was interviewed about events in her village in October of 1948).Davidbena (talk) 21:52, 5 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The "Green-line" Map does, indeed, show Allar

User:Zero0000, you deleted the source showing Allar in relation to the "Green-line." I lived for 8 years in Mata, the Israeli moshav closest to the ruins of Allar, and I can assure you that you have misplaced it. It's there. Look again. Click here. Take the road directly below "Beit Nettif" and move along the road going in the right direction, for the length of about half your Index finger, and you'll see Allar, above the road. It is near the place where Mata now stands. This map happens to be an enlarged section taken from a larger map, showing the entire country, and which you can see here.Davidbena (talk) 22:56, 27 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Language

User:Huldra, as you must certainly know, a village or town may be "depopulated," but houses are usually "abandoned." In the case of "Allar es-Sifleh" (where I visited today), historical records show that the town's inhabitants left on their own volition in 1948, after hearing gun-shots in the direction of Beit al-Hawa. They feared for their lives. Of course, because of the war, they never returned. Isn't it better, therefore, to write "abandoned house," rather than "depopulated house," since it is actually more accurate? The article already notes that the village was depopulated.Davidbena (talk) 00:03, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

User:Davidbena Actually, the villagers were never allowed to return...and that is something different. There are a lot of people who would like to use the words "ethically cleansed" (see the pal.rem site, eg.)...while Israel typically use the name"abandoned" (as if the villagers just didn't care to live there anymore). Using "depopulated" is a compromise. If you want to change that long time compromise, then a RfC is the least at what we are looking at, Huldra (talk) 22:06, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Still, the word "depopulated" is never used for a house, but for a town or village. Here, it is better to write "Vacant Arab house, etc."Davidbena (talk) 22:09, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, you got a point there, What about using the word "empty Palestinian house"? Huldra (talk) 22:14, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The word "Palestinian" is also problematic, since prior to 1948 both Jews and Arabs were called "Palestinians" in the country known widely as Palestine. I think that it should be clearly distinguished as being an "Arab" house, belonging to the village's former inhabitants. If you'd like to say "Empty Arab house," that's fine too.Davidbena (talk) 22:21, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, we can say "empty Palestinian Arab house", if you like. You are correct in saying that some called both Jews and Arabs for "Palestinians" pre 1948...but the Jews were not dispossessed (or very few), the dispossessed were overwhelmingly not Jewish.Huldra (talk) 22:29, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]

True, but wasn't that the outcome of war and hostilities? As for your insistence on writing "empty Palestinian Arab house," that would also be an accurate description.Davidbena (talk) 22:49, 9 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]