Talk:Allan Breck Stewart

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Text and/or other creative content from this version of Allan Stewart (Jacobite) was copied or moved into Alan Breck Stewart with this edit. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

merge?

Interesting: appears to have a good source and much more detail than Alan Breck Stewart who evidently is the same chappie, noted for the Appin Murder. Presumably a merge is in order, but which way? ...... dave souza, talk 20:53, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Since I'm one of the guilty (of writing) parties, I shouldn't do it, but I agree. The Alan Breck Stewart article should probably merge here, rather than the other way around, because of the habit of the DNB to set precedent for scholarly references. I got the impression from the DNB that it's one of their fact-checked-but-not-rewritten articles from the 1st ed. Its author is quite hostile to Stevenson's and Scott's impressions of the man, and I can only say that I agree with him that contemporary authors will romanticize this guy quite a bit, and we need to be very suspicious of web sources for that reason. Geogre 20:59, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree on the direction of the merge, although it's interesting that the second article quotes some modern scholarship suggesting that Allan wasn't the murderer either. Choess 21:12, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
- A side issue to the merge: I saw that, too late. The 2004 DNB suggests that there were reasons that it wouldn't have been him (that he was pigeon toed and so couldn't have run), but I saw, when I went digging for external links, "Contemporary scholars solve ancient murder case" from 2004 or 2005. I didn't read it, but that kind of information should certainly be in. It doesn't make that much of a difference from our point of view, of course, because the man is important as a legend as much as a person, and his legend is unchanged by the sad truth. Geogre 21:20, 17 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  - That's lucky, as the author of the recent book doesn't in fact supply the truth. I find the description of his conclusions, here, unconvincing, I must admit, with a family secret that has been handed down through the Stewart family for 250 years, and which the author elects not to reveal... but I've written a neutral paragraph about it, and merged in bits of Alan Breck Stewart, cautiously, as it was unsourced, and giving credence to Geogre's sourced version wherever they differed. Bishonen | talk 23:39, 18 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]
- I think you're right, now that I have read it. Let's play detective ourselves, shall we? Oh, we're none of us retired deputy inspectors, but let's see what we know: the author, Nimmo, is the president of the Stevenson Society. He was entranced because he'd lived there. The purpose of his book is to trace the "Alan Breck" walk (from Stevenson). His conclusion is very much like Stevenson's own -- that the murder was part of the clan war. Now, taking all of these together, his central revelation -- that Mungo Campbell's account was wrong -- doesn't contribute substantively to a non-Stevenson (and non-Scott) account. Geogre 11:45, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Chop Chop?

I've got to say, I think the article is far, far too short to support quadruple section headers. It makes the thing suggest that there is a ton more to say about each of these subjects, and there really isn't -- barring new evidence. This is especially true with the dignifying of fan books as "modern scholarship." The modern scholarship that I did find was along the lines of "why did Westminster react" and "how bad were conditions in the highlands after the '45" and "was there an actual insurgency?" I didn't see any scholarly interest in the man, or even the murder, other than the surveys that I put in the further reading. Geogre 13:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yup probably right. They were working headers as I reordered stuff. Actually, there is very little to say here that isn't in Appin murder - but I do intend to research this over the next week(s).--Doc^g 13:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

{facts}

Hate the things myself, but In the murder the British government saw the potential danger certainly requires some attribution. What evidence have we that this was the government view?--Doc^g 20:13, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That was in the DNB. My whole account had been from the DNB, with modifications from anyone who added substantially new material. Similarly, the "was romantic figure" is attested by the fact that Scott, writing decades later, knows the name and sees in a fictional AS a venerable icon of Jacobite resistance and Stevenson's plucking out of this figure. In other words, we wouldn't have an article on this guy except that he became a romantic figure. Geogre 20:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

True enough. Unfortunately, I don't have access to the DNB, but I'd still like to see a specific citation for the imputed government view. I'll dig through my history books later.--Doc^g 20:17, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It's the very page listed below. I provided a full citation. Geogre 20:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

By the way, if you do research the Appin murder and Allan Stewart, where things are interesting are, as I said above, the documentation of the reaction to the murder. That's what contemporary historians are interested in. If this was just a feud killing, then that would have alarmed Westminster. If it was political assassination, then that would have alarmed Westminster. What would be intriguing is the reaction in Edinborough. I haven't seen anyone discussing that, but I didn't have access to the full text of the Scottish History journal. It would be an interesting field: how did the new Scottish government respond to allegations and fears of clan wars and/or political guerrillas. Geogre 20:19, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of a sentence

I have removed "Also, Scott's friend describes the old man as wearing "the petit croix of St Louis", but no such decoration existed." In fact the petite croix (small cross) is the insignia of a knight of the Ordre de Saint-Louis, as opposed to the grand'croix. Such a St Louis cross was the usual reward for long service as officer in the king's army, as expected in the case of Stewart. 86.65.59.50 (talk) 15:07, 3 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 3 November 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed after over two weeks. History swap performed to preserve attribution history. Jenks24 (talk) 12:04, 19 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Allan Stewart (Jacobite) → Alan Breck Stewart – The name 'Breck' should be included, since it is nearly always used when referring to him, and additionally eliminates the need for disambiguation. Zacwill16 (talk) 19:36, 3 November 2015 (UTC) --Relisted. This is George Ho actually (Talk) 22:05, 11 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Useful links

To be incorporated into the article when I have time (or, if you're reading this, when YOU have time):

Chuntuk (talk) 18:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Allan Breck Stewart

The Allan Stewart disambiguation page links to this article, whose title has only one L. The Alan Stewart disambiguation page doesn't list Alan Breck at all. This is an internal inconsistency in Wikipedia; I welcome discussion, but preferably here:

Talk:Allan Stewart#Allan Breck Stewart

I'm sure the correct spelling isn't in English at all; so I have no idea how this man's name should be spelled in English.

MrDemeanour (talk) 16:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 30 December 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved as requested. Dekimasuよ! 04:34, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alan Breck Stewart → Allan Breck Stewart – From what I can see, original documents about the Appin murder (e.g. the trial documents available here: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AXc0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false) and most later sources discussing the historical figure (e.g. the Dictionary of National Biography entry, the Rosemary Gibson and Seamus Carney books linked as sources) spell his first name with two Ls. The one-L spelling seems to have originated with Stevenson and is generally used to refer to his fictional character rather than the real historical person (of results on the Internet Archive for 'alan breck stewart' dated from before 1886, most are mis-dated and clearly references to Kidnapped, and the ones that are actually pre-1886 all seem to be mis-transcriptions of documents that use the two-L spelling: https://archive.org/search?query="alan+breck+stewart"&sin=TXT&and%5B%5D=year%3A%5B1463+TO+1885%5D). Lochnahiolaire (talk) 19:57, 30 December 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Natg 19 (talk) 18:29, 8 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.