Talk:Alice Guo

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This article is written in Philippine English, which has its own spelling conventions (color, realize, center, travelled) and some terms that are used in it (including jeepney and cyberlibel) may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

On 24 May 2024, it was proposed that this article be moved to 2023–2024 Bamban raids. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Semi-protected edit request on 12 May 2024

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She is a mayor in Philippines with Chinese ethnicity and questionable origins, documents and records that she herself don't have any idea about, and an owner of a company with a fugitive just right behind the municipality. Are the filipino people just thinking too much? 158.62.80.166 (talk) 15:55, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 15:59, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 13 May 2024

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is a Chinese not a Filipino 14.100.17.104 (talk) 15:35, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Myrealnamm-alt (talk) 15:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 24 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Neither the proposed title, nor any of the alternatives have gained traction. The notability of Guo has been questioned, but a) this is not AfD, b) the discussion is trending towards WP:GNG being met. Favonian (talk) 17:08, 1 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Alice Guo → 2023–2024 Bamban raids – Alice Guo would have been not notable if she was not subject to a Senate inquiry over suspicions she is a planted Chinese asset. She only meets WP:GNG over one event (See WP:BIO1E). It is more like an aftermath of the 2023–2024 Bamban raids. Alternatively the article could be renamed to Bamban mayor POGO controversy or any event-oriented title. Like 2019 Australian Parliament infiltration plot is not named Nick Zhao Bo and Brian Chen Hariboneagle927 (talk) 11:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The coverage of the raids would not have gained that much traction if an alleged spy, posing as a mayor who seemingly had amnesia and whose citizenship is questionable, hadn't shown up. The level of threat to the national security of the Philippines brought by this person is unprecedented. Her alleged ties with transnational criminals extend beyond the raids in Bamban. HueMan1 (talk) 17:37, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, the media coverage on her dubious biography (from her alleged childhood days in Bamban to being a mayor even if she is an unknown individual for much of the citizens of Bamban) warrants the article's retention as a biographical article. Alternatively, the section at the Philippine Offshore Gaming Operator covering the Bamban raids should be split into a standalone article. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 07:53, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The Alice Guo affair has gotten a life of her own which transcends her involvement in POGOs, particularly now that there are suspicions regarding her origin that are now threatening to drag multiple political institutions in the country into serious scrutiny. Borgenland (talk) 09:08, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for same reasons above. Ganmatthew (talk • contribs) 15:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

(Partial) Oppose Guo has become a rather significant (and arguably much bigger) topic for entirely different reasons than just the criminal activities of the Hongsheng firm. Although I agree our coverage of her would be better served under a different article format rather than a WP:BLP (provided again, that it's a separate coverage from the Bamban raids). But I struggle to think of an appropriate title (Bamban mayor POGO controversy doesn't quite cut it, as it still implies that the issue only involves her links to the POGOs). Better where it is for now, I guess, until we get more details from the investigation. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 12:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Urgent Rename - Obsidian Soul's position on this matter, as stated above, matches my own. So I will simply second it. But let me add that we need to take action quickly; the article has no business being a BLP.- Chieharumachi (talk) 04:43, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe something generic like 2024 Alice Guo controversy or 2024 Alice Guo identity controversy?-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 05:12, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, that's a good next direction. But I'd go further and suggest 2024 Bamban mayor identity controversy. I'm okay with Alice Guo and 2024 Alice Guo identity controversy being redirects, unless something in BLP policy explicitly says otherwise. - Chieharumachi (talk) 09:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

None of those red links are plausible search items. The current article title more than suffices. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:53, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed they are too clunky. Borgenland (talk) 12:55, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not the "clunkiness" that is being addressed here. It's the fact that this should not be a BLP per WP:BLP1E and WP:SUSPECT. The scope and text of this article is not exactly about her. It's about her dubious identity. Without an identity that can be verified, we can not make a BLP. We aren't sure of anything at all about her supposed biography. Thus the article should be event-oriented, as Hariboneagle927 proposed (though not merged with the Bamban raids).

It's not like the article will differ significantly. We can retain everything here, except the BLP infobox. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 01:51, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As I originally pointed out WP:BLP1E applies. I'm trying to formulate my thoughts better but Obsidian was spot on summarizing my point that this article should be event-oriented. Its not about the plausible search teams. Retaining Alice Guo as a search term will ensure that readers will be redirected to this article, at least in the coming months

Her only claim to notability is the dubious citizenship and her link to POGOs. Her notability applies to No. 1 and No. 2 of WP:BLP1E. If not for the Senate inquiries Guo would not satisfy WP:NPOL as mayor of a humble town.Hariboneagle927 (talk) Hariboneagle927 (talk) 04:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Surely then a better sounding title could be had, like a Guo hearing to reference McCarthy (coincidence, not an endorsement of what the latter stood for). Borgenland (talk) 05:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What's the event cited as WP:BLP1E? The raids? The Senate hearings? Her candidacy and mayorship? Her missing mom? The memes? If the answer is more than one of those, then surely WP:BLP1E doesn't apply as there'd be more than one event?

WP:NPOL should be treated as a baseline, not the ceiling: a person not qualifying for it doesn't disqualify that person, but person that qualifies for it makes it automatically notable. Does this fail WP:GNG? If it does, WP:AFD is that way. WP:RM is primarily to change article titles, not article scopes. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "event" is her questionable identity. Everything falls into that. Her connection to the POGOs, the hearings, her missing mom, the memes, etc. She's notable because of that and that alone.

The thing about having a questionable identity is you can not make a WP:BLP if no one knows who you really are. Is her name really Alice Guo? What's her birthdate? Her birthplace? Where did she grow up? Who are her parents and siblings? NONE of the acceptable sources can answer that. We have primary sources, like her birth certificate and her interviews, but those can not be used, because they're WP:BLPPRIMARY and WP:BLPSELFPUB, even if they werent contested, as they currently are.

So what do we have for a biography? That she's the mayor of Bamban. That's about the only uncontroversial information we have on her. That alone does not satisfy WP:NPOL.

But really, the most important part is that WP:BLP has one of the strictest policies and enforcement on Wikipedia. Normal policies don't apply to BLPs for a good reason. We are already skirting all those rules with the article's current content.

The question of Alice Guo's identity is notable. Everything written here can and should be retained. But it should not be in a BLP format.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 04:41, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How is someone's questionable identity an event? It's literally the humanity of a person that we are talking about if that's the case, and not ummmm... police raids? I could argue one's entire lifetime as an event, but that's stretching it.

Stop citing WP:NPOL. For the love of Xi Jinping I just explained this above. If a politician fails WP:NPOL, it's not the end as the subject can still pass WP:GNG. Now if it passes WP:NPOL then we are almost safe.

This is turning into a deletion discussion. Start an WP:AFD instead? Howard the Duck (talk) 06:53, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Don't be pedantic. Controversy is an event.

WP:Notability#Events: In some cases, notability of a controversial entity (such as a book) could arise either because the entity itself was notable, or because the controversy was notable as an event—both need considering.

She isn't notable as a person ("entity") for a WP:BLP. I'm using WP:NPOL as the baseline as you said. You haven't given other reasons on how she, as a person, might be notable for a BLP, aside from the coverage of the controversy on her identity. Hence WP:BLP1E.

But I clearly said she is notable for the above event. Or to put it better: the controversy around her identity is notable. The event passes WP:GNG. We can write an article on that, but NOT a BLP.

It's not a question of her humanity either. Again, we know nothing about her that is verifiable to pass the policies on WP:BLP. How is that difficult to understand? Everything is disputed. And that will remain the case until the investigation is finished, and then maybe we can write about whoever she actually is, where she was actually born, who her actual parents are, and so on.

No one is suggesting deletion either. WP:BATHWATER. We barely need to do any changes to the existing article, aside from rewording the lead and maybe removing the BLP infobox. Everything else can remain as is. The only thing it has to be right now, is not be a BLP.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 10:38, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Also just to avoid confusion: I do not have exactly the same position as Hariboneagle927. We both agree that coverage of Guo should not be a BLP. But I don't agree on merging the controversy of her identity with the Bamban raids and the criminal activities of the Hongsheng firm. That may be where it started, but as I and all the opposes have said, the question of her identity is now a different scope from just POGO crimes. -- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 10:42, 30 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose (1) "2023–2024 Bamban raids" is a completely different topic, (2) Alice Guo has enough information and notability for Wikipedia to warrant having an article on her, we don't need to lump her in with the Bamban raids, because we don't know if all the controversy surrounding her is just POGO stuff or if it goes much deeper. A diehard editor (talk | edits) 12:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Arconning (talk | edits) 12:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - for the same reasons as above. Guo is now facing separate issues related to her citizenship and birth certificate, and the Bamban raids are an entirely unrelated matter. — doclys (❀) 18:16, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: the question of her citizenship, alleged links to criminals are all tangentially linked to the initial POGO controversy. She was alleged to be a Chinese who was planted as a Filipino citizenship, get elected to public office to enable the relevant POGO hub to set up shop in the first place. Imo to say these are separate issues is inaccurate hence the original suggested title. Hariboneagle927 (talk) 04:03, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: WikiProject Biography, WikiProject Politics, and Tambayan Philippines have been notified of this discussion. HueMan1 (talk) 10:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - per discussions above.

— JL 09 ^talk_contribs 00:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Alice Guo edit on senate dignity now supported by citation which I forgot

In an earlier edit, I forgot to insert the citation, making it appear that my edit was an outsourced commentary, but now I added the Link and edited shortened quotation - “This kind of witch hunt xxx reflects badly on the dignity of the Senate,” Ang See stated. See Ang See decries Senate focus on Guo; Hontiveros defends probe and this version [1] very sincerely yours Valenzuela400 (talk) 09:20, 29 May 2024 (UTC).[reply]

@Valenzuela400 What does this mean exactly? TheNuggeteer (talk) 03:16, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

My edit on Alice Guo states: "On May 26, 2024, Filipino-Chinese activist and academic Teresita Ang See stressed that the Senate investigation into Guo had been diverted from its main subject of POGOs into a "ridiculous tear-jerker 'zarzuela'" that "reflects badly on the dignity of the Senate".; but thereafter, I received a message in my talk page: Please refrain from inserting unsubstantiated wording, commentary and editorializing as you did in Alice Guo. You edits have been partially reverted for being unconstructive. Future insertions of similar content will be met with stronger sanctions. Thank you; therefore I edited adding the citation to support that "reflects badly on the dignity of the Senate": Ang See decries Senate focus on Guo : "“This kind of witch hunt and personal attacks are way below decency and reflects badly on the dignity of the Senate,” Ang See; meaning therefore: casting aspersion on the Senate as a political institution, which is a legal term or phrase often used in Court decisions, rulings; tarnishing the image of the Senate, another synonym phrase for that, and my edit = that "reflects badly on the dignity of the Senate", very sincerely very sincerely yours Valenzuela400 (talk) 05:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC).[reply]

@Valenzuela400 Maybe just dont include it, the article does not need it, if you think otherwise, than say that Ang See hates Guo or summarize it.

The reason it was reverted because it contained an opinion, opinions are heavily refrained on Wikipedia. TheNuggeteer (talk) 11:44, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Well done, I summed it up rather than a quote = that tarnishes the image of the Senate new edit, thank youValenzuela400 (talk) 11:59, 7 June 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 June 2024

She is pretty controversial in the Philippines, some people regard her as a Chinese person, some people regard her as a Filipino, people can edit the article saying "Alice Guo is a Chinese person" or vice-versa. The article can be a breeding ground for vandalism regarding the news. TheNuggeteer (talk) 13:24, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 20 June 2024

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Please change the number 12 to 13 because Alice Guo came to the Philippines when she is 13 y.o. 112.198.178.96 (talk) 04:29, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Jamedeus (talk) 06:11, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reverted it. The same documents mentioned that she was born in August 1990. How was she able to reach 13 years if she arrived in the country in January 2003??? Borgenland (talk) 12:31, 20 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 29 June 2024

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Alice Guo, or Guo Hua Ping, was born on August 31, 1990. Not on July 12, 1986. It was confirmed by the NBI. It is also a match for the fingerprint of the same person.

Source:

Done TheNuggeteer (talk) 11:10, 29 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Succession

How should the infobox be fixed now that the VM is also suspended on the same charges as Guo? Borgenland (talk) 02:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Indonesia, Kuala Lumpur, Rappler and Inquirer

Sen Tulfo Philippine Airlines Flight PR 540 from Jakarta, Indonesia will land at NAIA Terminal 1 August 21 afternoon with passengers on board Shiela Leal Guo, sister of Alice Guo and Cassandra Li Ong] very sincerely yours Valenzuela400 (talk) 07:37, 22 August 2024 (UTC).[reply]

Alice Guo seen in Kuala Lumpur based on photo received by PAOCC PAOCC's photo, Guo was spotted at the Kuala Lumpur International Airport in Malaysia - she arrived in Kuala Lumpur via Jetstar Asia Airways 686 from Denpasar, Bali,” she landed in Batam, Indonesia last August 18, 2024,” Rappler Investigates Alice Guo outwitted fools in gov’t - 2 news reports, unverified, but which is smarter, so for early birds of this teleserye, be first to edit my edit, since this is a current event which will definitely be revealing for editors here, the next episode, very sincerely yours Valenzuela400 (talk) 11:33, 22 August 2024 (UTC).[reply]

ALICE GUO NOW CAPTURED IN TANGERANG, INDONESIA 49.145.41.35 (talk) 02:15, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese spy

Should this be on the lead? Its a one-off accusation by Senator Risa Hontiveros. While foreign sources are still going by the alleged Chinese spy label, which is borderline sensationalist. Local sources overwhelmingly is describing her "crimes" as being her links to POGOs by this point and the alleged fake citizenship does not necessarily make a (government) Chinese spy. Hariboneagle927 (talk) 02:53, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I’m not mistaken, that passage was inserted by overseas editors. Borgenland (talk) 03:15, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh wow, there are more concrete evidence now. Hariboneagle927 (talk) 10:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]