Talk:Alia Sabur

What is the truth?

It amazes me that anyone really thinks Colin Maclaurin must have been 18 years and 363 or 364 days old when he became a professor. Please, she is a remarkable person, but she was 3 days from her 19th birthday. Are you really saying that you think Colin Maclaurin was older by 1 or 2 days?

Wikipedia is concerned with verifiability, not truth. Any change you want to make to the article must use a reliable source. What you or I think is irrelevant - what matters is what the sources say. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 15:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

How about when the source is the individual in question? The article I posted was from an interview with her, that she links on her own personal web page. Which part of the RS are you debating? I find it impossible to believe she would link an article that was untrue.

And I would think that truth is a higher standard of it's own merit, which in this case is easily verifiable. I'll have to remember that quote though next time. Verifiability greater than truth. Wow. That's the kind of rhetoric the eugenicists used to justify the Tuskegee experiments. The truth is not by committee, it's a natural attribute. But that's a philosophical comment and I don't want you thinking I am slandering you as an individual. I would just hope that there would be a higher standard. I am sadly disappointed.:: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.119.168 (talk) 21:46, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It's not rhetoric—it is Wikipedia's policy on Verifiability. We report what reliable sources have to say on the subject, not what we believe to be true. Now, if you want to include material that's taken from a published interview, why not discuss it here? Tell us what you want to say, and provide a link to the interview. Or you can be bold and add it to the article yourself - but if you do this, please add a citation so that everyone can verify the information for themselves. That's all verifiability requires of us. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 21:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

PhD vs. PhD Candidate

Neither the news reports nor her website is sufficiently clear as to her academic status. It states that she is PhD (ABD). ABD means All But Dissertation which is the same as Ph.D. candidate, that is, a graduate student who has completed the course work for PhD, and is ready to start working on the dissertation (another 2-5 years, depending on the discipline). What would be appropriate is to state in her CV the expected completion date of her PhD.

Assistant Professor without a completed PhD?

There are certain doubts as to the claims concerning her being appointed an Assistant Professor. Such titles are conferred at universities normally only on staff who hold a completed PhD. (In fact, a number of universities have special clauses in their collective agreements stating this specifically.) A second question that should be asked is what her duties are, and whether her appointment is tenure-track (which is the "real thing" in academia).

According to news reports (and the Guinness book) she has been pointed full professor, some of which are cited on the page. The information that you keep adding is speculation and original research and does not belong on the main page unless you have reliable sources to back up the claims. (eg. Other reliable sources state doubt about the validity of her appointment because of such and such) Please stop re-adding the information to the main page without references. Thanks and hope this helps. --ImmortalGoddezz (t/c) 17:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Guinness World Records

Thank you for the correct link! 205.200.220.91 (talk) 16:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Youngest Candidate

Can it be confirmed that Alia is indeed the youngest Phd Student ever? I believe that is at least spurious.

Doing Google for "Youngest doctorate candidate" and "youngest phD candidate" only one competitor showed up. A girl named Wanda Haffit who is also fifteen. However a Bernd R. Noack received his doctorate in physics at sixteen and I know of a Carl Witte who had a philosophy doctorate at 11.--T. Anthony 14:51, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

That said the answer seems to a tentative yes. Tathagat Avatar Tulsi was likely the same age as a doctoral candidate, but she seems to in least be the youngest doctoral student at present. Unless this Wanda woman is younger.(Bernd Noack is a grown man whose prodigy days are in the past)--T. Anthony 15:05, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Guinness World Records recently confirmed her status as the Youngest Professor. Having a PhD and being a research professor are different things.(Drumz0rz (talk) 15:30, 22 April 2008 (UTC))

I'm not sure that the comparison with Colin Maclaurin is entirely accurate, regardless of what the Guinness Book of Records says. Alia Sabur is, according to her website, an assistant professor (equivalent to a lecturer in UK terminology), whereas Maclaurin was a (full) professor. It's still an extremely impressive achievement, though - at that age I'd only just started my BA. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 22:21, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

This guy started his PhD at 16: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.161.171.150 (talk) 00:14, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

That's also pretty impressive. I believe Ruth Lawrence started her DPhil at the age of 15. -- Nicholas Jackson (talk) 21:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

The comment ending this stub: "Due to her young age and unnatural progression, she lacks many of the social graces that are developed through peer interaction." is both untrue and unnecessary. The revision that added this comment shows no username. I have met Alia Sabur and found her to have no gaping lack of "social graces," at least no greater lack than any bright young person. I have removed the comment. AnalogTimepiece 02:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)AnalogTimepiece 22:42 14 March 2007

Seniore12302:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

As of 4/23/08, Ms. Sabur has not yet received her Ph.D. from Drexel University. She has indeed receive an M.S. degree in 2006. In her resume next to Ph.D. she is using the abbreviation ABD which stands for All But Dissertation. I therefore removed the statement that she received her doctorate from Drexel University.

—Preceding Seniore123 comment added by Seniore123 (talk • contribs) 02:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Photo

Zanimum indicated in a deleted edit that he's soliciting a photo of Ms. Sabur. Ral315 (talk) 17:51, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Circlechess deleted the photo of a green monster that was holding the place where http://www.aliasabur.com/teaching.jpg should be. Since the user account for Circlechess is less than 4 days old, this user cannot put it there themselves... yet.

Understanding academic appointments

There is some unclarity in the news reports about Ms. Sabur's appointment. The various academic appointments that one may hold can be described at large on the following three dimensional scale.

Part-time vs. full-time

People who are sessional instructions are often designated as "part-time professors" and may hold professorial titles if they have completed their PhD.

Rank

There are three ranks of professorship, Assistant Professor being the most junior, Associate Professor being the intermediate and Full Professor being the top level.

Someone also needs to check the differences in titles between the US and UK systems –the US assistant professor is called a lecturer in the UK. This means that while she might be called the youngest professor (lecturer) in the US but isn't acutally the same "grade" as Maclaurin was appointed to at 19. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.65.48 (talk) 19:56, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Tenure-track vs. limited term

In order to conduct serious research, one needs to be sure that one's position is secure. Thus, most universities offer tenure-track professorships, which lead to tenure after a number of years of satisfactory service. In reality, depending on the discipline, most young academics start their career at limited term positions, such as postdoctoral fellowships, or limited term assistant professorships.

Overall, what can be quite credible is that she is currently a graduate student (which is great at such a young age), and became an Instructor (the proper title for "professors without a PhD"). This is not uncommon for PhD candidates, especially in humanities, where after completing the coursework, one has to work on the dissertation for another 5-7 years.205.200.196.135 (talk) 01:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Heritage/Religion

Note:Professor Alia Sabur is of Iranian origin. She was born from Iranian parents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.246.253.155 (talk) 14:45, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Please do not modify other editors' Talk page comments. If you wish to add a new comment, please either start a new section, or write below the comment you wish to reply to. For more Talk page guidelines, please see Wikipedia:Talk pages. Thanks. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 13:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

So any official/reliable word from her ethnicity? Iranian? Pakistani? Palestinian? The name can be from anywhere in the ME.--Zereshk (talk) 01:58, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

There are a lot of sites saying she's Iranaian (or Iranian-American) but her own site does not say this, and unfortunately all the sources I've found do not meet our standards for reliable sources. I would be delighted to include this material in the article if we could just find a source for it. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 15:42, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

She was born in NY but her heritage is unknown. If you are really interested in getting this in the article, I guess you could try e-mailing her directly. I'm not sure how Wiki regards an original source like that(Drumz0rz (talk) 04:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC))

We do accept information directly from the subjects of biographical articles, but generally this is done only to remove or correct existing material, and the person generally has to contact WP:OFFICE or WP:OTRS directly, to verify their identity and so on. In this case, the best solution I can see would be to find a published document in a reliable source (see Wikipedia:Reliable sources) answering this question once and for all. In the absence of such a source, we could always cite her own website, if she were to update it. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 17:40, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I have an idea, because she didn’t say anything about her background (maybe she afraid some people stop her ;) ) then the best way is we choose something for her like (Arab , Iranian, Turk,…)(it's better to go with majority of links) and because Wikipedia is important these days then she will contact wiki to correct the wrong information ;) if she didn’t contact then that means we did select the right one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Asheemak (talk • contribs)

Please read our policy on Biographies of living people. Suggesting that we deliberately include errors, or make guesses when we don't know what the truth is, is directly against policy. You may have meant the above suggestion as a joke—but an admin is unlikely to "see the funny side", and if you do try it, you may find yourself receiving a WP:BLOCK. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This keeps being added back into the article at an alarming pace. If it continues to be added like it has been I think a request for semi-protection needs to be requested. Anyway I've removed the Iranian/American statement again. This time however, this pops up in google news, Sabur denying Iranian roots. This should definitely not be added back in until something more definitive is found confirming her ethnicity. --ImmortalGoddezz (t/c) 03:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Good find, ImmortalGoddezz. I was beginning to doubt my own actions, given all the unreliable sources saying "Iranian" that are out there. We must continue to enforce Wikiedpia's BLP policy strictly in this regard. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 04:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Muslim

She's a Muslim. Why was it removed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.49.221.169 (talk) 15:06, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

She is not a Muslim. Her ethnicity is Iranian, since her last name "Sabur" is Persian. But that does not make her a Muslim in any way shape or form. Where did you get this nonesense from? Grinevitski (talk) 01:10, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Her ethnicity needs to be cited before being readded. As of right now, your word is as good as mine. (Drumz0rz (talk) 07:04, 26 April 2008 (UTC))

Her cultural affiliation should be mentioned. If she was Jewish, every other sentence would have talked about this one way or another: how she was raised in a Jewish household, bat mitzvah-ed, etc. In fact, with her accomplishments if it wasn't done the primary writer of the article would have been labeled an antisemite, like I shall be for pointing this out. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.38.145.35 (talk) 20:28, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Saying that she's Persian because her last name is Persian (source?) is like saying that President Bush was German because his name comes from an Americanized version of the German Busch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.118.191.66 (talk) 13:40, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Moved from article

Sabur's "Youngest Professor" status is contested based upon the fact that she had not, at the time of her hire, received her PhD. A PhD is required by most Universities before any kind of professorship (assistant, associate, or full) is granted. The source of the problem is around the meaning of the word "professor" since anyone teaching at a university or college is often referred to as "professor." It would be important to clear up the meaning of the word professor.

Why is nothing being made of the fact that it's a Korean university? I went to school in Japan, and the terms we used could be translated willy-nilly to western equivalents. That is "lecturer", "professor", "teacher" etc did not necessarily apply to the same things as you might expect in a US or UK university. I was dubbed a "Visiting Scholar" even as I had barely started grad school!!

I do not doubt that she's brilliant, but half of the reason Asian colleges invite foreigners is for status and bragging rights. I would not take a label of "Professor", "Full Professor" or even "Asst Professor" at face value. It's just a matter of what they decide to use in any given translation. On any given day.

Guiness should base their claim on Sabur's position in New Orleans. The Korean position is not reliable. 216.99.241.6 (talk) 07:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I removed this text because it is unsourced. The sources that are in the article use the word professor. If a reliable source is found contesting her status, it can be included, otherwise, it cannot. As a biography of a living person, Wikipedia's policy is quite clear that this article must provide reliable sources for any material, particularly anything controversial. We cannot, then, include anything about this being "contested" without a source saying who, and why, might be contesting the professorship. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 17:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Please show me the official source that states he was older than her by a whopping 2 days. (If he were older than her by 3 days he'd have been 19.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by SenSo (talk • contribs) 15:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

We have a reliable source saying Alia Sabur is the world's youngest professor. Wikipedia defines a reliable source as one with "a reputation for fact checking and accuracy". If you have a reliable source saying she is not the world's youngest professor, or that her status is "contested" as the text above says, please provide it. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 16:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Material cited to Hospodarske Noviny, EarthTimes removed

I have again removed unsourced / poorly sourced material regarding Alia Sabur's ethnicity, as required by policy. The new material, containing claims of Azerbaijani descent, was cited to the daily newspaper Hospodarske Noviny and dated April 1st 2008. Aside from any cultural significance, that date is too old to be included in their online archives. Thus this cannot be verified, and cannot be considered well-sourced for the purposes of a WP:BLP article. I also note that the EarthTimes.org source, linked above, describes her as "Iranian-American" in the same sentence that it reports her denying Iranian heritage, which raises a red flag in my opinion. Essentially, we are back where we started: the article should not say anything about her ethnicity, religion or heritage unless we find verifiable information from a reliable source of a high standard. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 13:20, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

PhD candidate status

The article states that Ms. Sabur is currently a PhD candidate at Drexel University. This is not sourced. I have not been able to find any evidence for this on the Drexel University website -- in particular, the professor listed as her thesis advisor on her cv, Selcuk Guceri, has a list of current students, which does not include Alia Sabur. The fact that she has gone on to two other positions, one of which is halfway around the world, also calls into question her status as a PhD student at Drexel, since often there is a residence requirement for continued enrollment as a graduate student.

I am concerned about this point, since lots of media coverage (especially, television media) attributes a PhD to Ms. Sabur. The biography on her own webpage says "She then earned an M.S. and Ph.D. (ABD) in Materials Science and Engineering from Drexel University." This is a very curious sentence. Anyone who does not know that ABD means "all but doctorate" will interpret it to mean that she has a PhD. If you are familiar with the term, the sentence is just completely self-contradictory. Plclark (talk) 19:23, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

ABD = all but dissertation, not doctorate. Hopefully the contradictions are reduced :-) SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 01:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

You're right, it's "dissertation", not "doctorate". But it amounts to the same thing, since the dissertation is the last thing one does before getting a doctorate. (Okay, I suppose I took a second foreign language exam after I turned in my dissertation, but had my program taken this requirement more seriously they doubtless would have made me do it earlier.) And it is certainly the most important thing, so saying "I have a PhD (except I didn't write a dissertation)" is still a blatant contradiction.

Do you have any suggestions about what to do about the unsourced (and quite conceivably false) statement that Ms. Sabur is currently enrolled at Drexel University? Plclark (talk) 01:38, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) Comment: I just clicked on "PhD candidate" in the article and saw that it links to a short article about ABD, which specifically says that some people list themselves as "PhD (ABD)" even though this is misleading and confusing to those outside academia. I didn't click on it the first time because I thought I knew what a PhD candidate was (having been one). I would like to retract the implication that Ms. Sabur's online bio is deliberately misleading on this point (however it obviously is misleading, because many have been misled). It just goes to show that spending one's entire adult life in academia is not sufficient to ensure a complete grasp of academic jargon. Plclark (talk) 01:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd say that the sentence needs rewriting - I hadn't noticed the link to All But Dissertation pretending to be Ph.D. candidate. That needs fixing, certainly. As to how best to word it, I'm not sure. Assuming her course work and research are complete (since she left the country), how should we describe her status? SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 01:56, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Anonymous Revert?

An anonymous user, identifiable only by the IP address 125.146.113.166, reverted the edit I made taking out the claim that Ms. Sabur is currently a PhD student (and/or ABD) at Drexel University, without any comment. Since I drew attention to the fact that this was uncited and possibly false, it should not have been added back without a sourced reference or at least some discussion here.

At the moment I have put a citation needed tag on this piece of information. The only suggestion that this might be true that I could find is on the resume on Ms. Sabur's personal website, where it says: "PhD Materials Science Engineering, Drexel University, Philadelphia, PA (ABD)" On the one hand, her resume does not give an expected graduation date (and is not itself dated, as academic CV's often are) so it is impossible to tell whether this is current. On the other hand, it is of course wikipedia core policy to require independent verification of biographical details when there is any question on them whatsoever. The fact that she is currently living and teaching (with title Professor) in a different country certainly raises the question of whether and in what sense she may currently be a student at Drexel. Plclark (talk) 07:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

After almost four months, no one has supplied a citation, so I removed the claim about her being a PhD student at Drexel. (Please do not add it back again without some supporting information!) At the moment the article is conspicuously silent on a key point: does Ms. Sabur in fact have a PhD? But this silence seems, unfortunately, to reflect the true state of coverage on this matter: it seems not to have been formally addressed by anyone. Plclark (talk) 13:28, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

What you may want to actually verify is whether Drexel University has a formalized process of declaring someone PhD ABD. As a graduate of the University, I can tell you that I do not believe ABD status is given there (it is at some institutions). Also worth checking into is Alia's bouncing from one advisor to the next (you probably can verify by looking at cached versions of the websites of Yury Gogotsi and Jonathan Spanier). Neither of these individuals would sign off on her completing a Ph.D. Guceri doesn't advise individuals in Materials Science and Engineering, and Alia has not worked in his lab. He is the dean that brought her to Drexel as "the youngest Ph.D. student." (-DrexelGrad, 03/23/10)

Changing the lead

The lead for this article had said that Alia Sabur is "currently the world's youngest professor". This seems to imply that she is currently a professor, which is not the case. So I rewrote it saying that she currently holds the record for being the world's youngest professor. This is tricky to phrase clearly and smoothly; rewritings are welcome. Plclark (talk) 10:29, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Talking with Alia/her BP oil spill idea

Should her BP Oil Spill clean up idea be mentioned?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.176.142 (talk) 03:46, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes it should, because it is being mentioned in reliable sources. However, we should not be making any judgments of her idea ourselves. We should only report what these sources say. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 20:58, 10 June 2010 (UTC)