Talk:Ali ibn Sahl Rabban al-Tabari

Untitled

Grounds for the merge proposal: cf. http://www.unhas.ac.id/~rhiza/saintis/tabari.html "Ali Ibn Rabban Al-Tabari was born in 838 C.E. He was also known as Abu al-Hasan" knd 12:01, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

problems

What we have in the article conflicts with the sources that I am posting here

• Selin, Helaine (1997-07-31). Encyclopaedia of the history of science, technology, and medicine in non-western cultures. Springer. pp. 930–. ISBN 9780792340669. Retrieved 17 May 2011.
• Prioreschi, Plinio (2001). A History of Medicine: Byzantine and Islamic medicine. Horatius press. pp. 222–. ISBN 9781888456042. Retrieved 17 May 2011.

J8079s (talk) 01:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Unreliable source

I am removing the Plinio Prioreschi sources since he has not specialization for this time period.[1] I have, however, left Prioreschi as a source for medical I have restored the Cambridge university source removed under an editor's personal opinion. --Kansas Bear (talk) 16:24, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Two physicians having similar names

There are two physicians sharing the same last name, "Raban al-Tabarī". It is unclear to me whether they are related. Ibn Abi Usaibia's famous work, Uyun al-Anbaa, has this to say about them:

Raban al-Tabarī. The ruler Jamal al-Dīn ibn al-Qiftī wrote in his book that this Raban al-Tabarī was a Jewish physician and astronomer, born in Tabaristān. Distinguished in medicine, outstanding in geometry and the exact sciences, he translated scientific works. His father Alī ibn Raban was a famous physician, who moved from Tabaristān to Irāq and settled in Samarra. He was an advanced scholar of Judaism. Al-Raban, al-Rabīn, al-Rāb — all these are names for those well-versed in the knowledge of the Jewish law.

Abū Ma`shar was asked concerning the casting of shadows. He discoursed at length until finally he said: "The translators of the version of al-Majistī taken from the Greek did not mention the matter of casting shadows, which is not to be found except in the version translated by Raban al-Tabarī the physician. In the old versions the matter of Ptolemy's casting shadows is not mentioned, neither did Thābit, nor Hunayn al-Qalawsī nor al-Kindī nor any other of those great translators know about it, including the sons of Nawbakht."

Ibn Raban al-Tabarī, i.e., Abū al-Hasan Alī ibn Sahl ibn Raban al-Tabarī. Ibn al-Nadīm al-Baghdādī, the scribe Alī ibn Rubal, tells the following: He was a scribe of Mazyār ibn Qārin, and then was converted to Islam by al-Mu`tasim and became his favorite. Al-Mutawakkil took him to be one of his companions. He was held in high esteem as a man of letters and was al-Rāzī's teacher in medicine. He was born and bred in Tabaristān. One of his saying is: "An ignorant physician instigates death." He wrote the following:

1) "The Orchard of Philosophy," in seven chapters comprising 30 essays which together contain 360 items.

2) "The Pleasures of Life."

3) "The Gem of Kings."

4) "Compendium of the Court."

5) "The Advantages of Different Foods, Beverages and Herbs." [p.533]

6) "The Preservation of Health."

7) "On Charms."

8) "On Phlebotomy."

9) "On Diets."

Quoted from an incomplete English translation published online[2]. This should explain why some sources may suggest a Jewish background for both. Ibn Abi Usaibia doesn't say if they're related though. Wiqi⁽⁵⁵⁾ 17:29, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Either way, I wouldn't rely on Plinio to determine anything about anyone during this time period. From what I found about Plinio, he is a doctor?[3]

"Prioreschi completed his MD (1954) at the University of Pavia, Italy, and his PhD (1961) in experimental medicine at the University of Montreal. From 1967 to 1970, Prioreschi was a professor of pharmacology and medicine at Creighton University, School of Dentistry."

AND, if such reliable sources exist then it would be prudent for a certain editor(Rarevogel?), that removed references and referenced information, to present said information on the talk page after removing other references. Correct? --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:39, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

first WP:Assume good faith second Prioreschi is a fine source per WP:RS I have found he is supported by the sources he cites. Other sources to help:Selin, Helaine (1997-07-31). Encyclopaedia of the history of science, technology, and medicine in non-western cultures. Springer. pp. 930–. ISBN 9780792340669. Retrieved 17 May 2011. Tibi, Selma (2006). The Medicinal Use of Opium in Ninth-Century Baghdad:. BRILL. pp. 313–. ISBN 9789004146969. Retrieved 14 December 2013. For info on mistaken claims of "Jewish", Iranica on line [4] also has good stuff on his life and works. A lot more can be said about him than we have.J8079s (talk) 00:26, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

Excellent. Then you will be able to tell me the source Prioreschi cites for Ali ibn Sahl Rabban al-Tabari's ethnicity.

And if Prioreschi is a WP:RS, then why is Rarevogel removing a Cambridge University source? Or is Cambridge University, that section being written by Seyyed Hossein Nasr,[5] suddenly not WP:RS?? --Kansas Bear (talk) 05:47, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

I've reinstated it, attributing and linking to Hossein Nasr. Dougweller (talk) 11:16, 14 December 2013 (UTC)

article fixes/ bio

Quotes from `Alî at-Tabarî's ``Paradise of Wisdom, one of the oldest Arabic Compendiums of Medicine Author(s): Max Meyerhof Source: Isis, Vol. 16, No. 1 (Jul., 1931), pp. 6-54 Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of The History of Science Society Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/224348 .

1. 'ALi says in his apologetic tract "The Book of Religion and Empire" which he wrote about 855 A.D. that he himself was a Christian before he was converted to Islam, and that his uncle ZAKKAR was a prominent Christian scholar. This tract is a defence of Islam against Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and Parsees.
2. His, or rather his father's name has been very often mutilated by the Arab authors, so that we find him mentioned as 'ALI B. ZAIN, B. ZAID, B. ZAIL, B. RAZIN, B. RAYYAN, B. RABL, B. DABAL or B. DHABAL, etc. IBN AL-QIFTi (4) renders the title Rabban correctly but with a false explanation, taking it for the Jewish title of Rabbi. So 'AL? B. RABBAN passed into all historical works, until quite recently, as a Muslim of Jewish origin, although 'ALl himself, in the preface to his work, explains this title Rabban as being the Syriac word for ((our Master)) or ((our Teacher ))
3. 'ALI'S father SAHL with the honorary title of Rabban was a medical man, but interested also in other sciences. IBN AL-QIFTI (p. i86) mentions a translation of PTOLEMY'S Almagest by SAHL RABBAN ; NALLINO shortly discusses the veracity of this assertion (ii). 'ALI was instructed, as he himself states, by his learned father in the Syriac and Arabic languages, in medicine, mathematics and philosophy and, as he alleges, also a little in Hebrew and Greek. So 'ALi was able, later on, to translate his great medical treatise from Arabic into Syriac, and to quote, in his ((Book of Religion and Empire )), long passages from the Old Testament. But for this there is the simple explanation given by MINGANA (1. C. p. XVIII foll.) that 'ALI quoted from one of the Syriac translations of the Bible (I2). 'ALi is expressly called a Christian by the Historians AN-NADIM, MUHAMMADAT- TABARI and IBN KHALLIKAN(MINGANA pp. XI and XIII).
4. We learn from 'ALi IBN RABBAN'S own words that later on he was secretary to the Persian prince MAZIYAR B. QARIN, grandson of the above-mentioned WANDAD HURMUZDand governor of Tabaristarn; it is, moreover, reported that he went for him to Baghdad to the court of the caliph AL-MA'MUN and to Rayy (Rhages) where AR-RAZI(RHAZES)the most celebrated of all the Arabo-Persian physicians is said to have been his pupil. SIDDIQI accepts this assertion of IBN AL-QIFTI (1. C. P. 23 I), but I think that this is not possible, as 'ALI B. RABBAN was a man of at least seventy-five when AR-RAZrIeached the age of learning. Moreover

the sojourn of 'ALI B. RABBANat Rayy, RAzI'sbirthplace, seems to have been about 840 A.D., after the defeat and before the cruel execution of his master MAZIYAR(d. 84I A.D.). There is no evidence that 'ALI returned to Rayy in his later years. After the violent death of MAZIYAR, 'ALI seems to have served as a secretary to the caliphs AL-MU'TASIM (833-842), AL-XWATHIQ (842-47) and AL-MUTAWAKKIL(847-6I A.D.). The last-mentioned ruler converted him to Islam, and it was for him that he wrote the above-mentioned apologetic tract against Jews, Christians and Magians (I3), which he finished in the third year of the caliph (viz. in 85o A.D.). 'ALI IBN RABBANmust have died some time subsequent to this date, but no historian records the year of his death (I3a).

A great deal could be add based n this source. J8079s (talk) 20:50, 10 January 2015 (UTC)