Talk:Alfa Romeo in motorsport

Suggestions for structure

Post war, I think Alfa's programmes fall naturally into F1, Sportscars and Touring cars.

Pre-war, is the distinction between Grand Prix racing and Sports cars still valid? It's the latter I'm not too sure about - what is the appropriate terminology?

One suggestion - a way of quickly bulking up a start class article is to copy the relevant bits from other articles. In this case, Grand Prix motor racing and History of Formula One probably have some relevant material. 4u1e 15:36, 17 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

This article already seems quite bulky! We need to split it into sections. What about...

Pre-war - needs no explaination.
Post-war - as above.
Touring Cars - mostly Autodelta in 1960s/1970s.
Sports Car racing - starting with TZ, TZ2, Tipo33, though to TT12...
Return to Formula One - Brabham-Alfa flat-12, though to turbo years.
Modern Touring Car Racing - starting about late 1980's, beginning with the works Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo and the more recent European Touring Car Championship and World Touring Car Championship activities.

Does anyone have any different ideas - I might put this on my to-do list for later on. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 03:01, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Needs introduction

This article needs an introduction about what it is about - for example, can we can agree that it is about the works teams that raced the P2 and P3, and other factory teams that might not have been called Alfa Corse but were effectively factory supported works teams? For example, teams like Autodelta. I feel this is not the place for information about private teams like Luigi racing, and perhaps no more than the briefest mention of Osella (and even that is debatable - people can find that on it's own page).

Should works engine supply deals be included - I'd tend to say yes in the Brabham-Alfa case, as I believe the cars entered as Brabham-Alfa's. But what about the earlier supply of Alfa V8 engines to McLaren and March - were these works entries? Do these really belong in an article about Alfa Corse? Comments please. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 02:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My original rationale for creating the article was as somewhere for all the F1-related references to "Alfa Romeo" to link to, i.e. the works entries in the 1950s, the Brabham engines, the Osella engines, the March and McLaren V8s - everything. My vision was that the article would encompass any involement of Alfa Romeo in motorsport. In that regard, the choice of "Alfa Corse" as the name for article was possibly/probably a poor one, since it implies a "works" connection. I'm quite open to the suggestion that the name of the article be changed - perhaps to "Alfa Romeo motorsport", for consistency with similar articles Mercedes-Benz motorsport and BMW Motorsport. DH85868993 04:39, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Then in that case, maybe the article should be called Alfa Romeo in Formula One or something like that... but strictly speaking, if the intention is to include the P2/P3... anything pre-war isn't Formula One. If the article is to be called Alfa Corse, then the pre-war P2 and P3 are o.k. and so are the recent ETCC and WTCC entries, but even including the Brabham-Alfa might be stretching the definition of Alfa Corse, which is the name that only the works Alfa Romeo team should use, although the offical team has used other names too. e.g. Alfa Romeo Racing Team in the 2005 WTCC.

If we create an Alfa Romeo in Motorsport page, this could cover works and non works entries and if it grows too large, we could split off [:Alfa Romeo in Formula One]] for Formula One and Alfa Corse if someone wants to create a specific page about the works team. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 05:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Alfa Romeo in Motorsport sounds fine to me. I would suggest renaming this page to the new name. DH85868993 05:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How many people are editing this page - other than you and myself? - at least I was just about to edit it. If we are agreed about the name, we can move it with a redirect for Alfa Corse.

Wait - I'm now reading the naming convention page and not sure if it should be Alfa Romeo in Motorsport or Alfa Romeo in motorsport? The BMW case is a little different, as BMW Motorsport is a company name as part of the BMW group, so it gets an "M", for Motorsport, and Alfa Corse gets a "C" for Corse, but Motorsport only seems to get an upper case "M" at the beginning of a sentence, but when not at the beginning, it should just be m, so that should be Alfa Romeo in motorsport. Do you read it that way too? --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 06:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I read it the same way - I think it should be a lower case "m". I don't think anyone except us is currently paying this page any attention, so I reckon we should be bold and make the change. DH85868993 06:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, lets be bold and change it to Alfa Romeo in motorsport. I've got to go offline for about 2 hours, but will change it when I'm back if you haven't already. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 06:58, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we can close this discussion, as DH85868993 has moved it to Alfa Romeo in motorsport and therefore it includes works entries and notable non-works entries too. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 04:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject Formula One tag

One more comment - how did this get to be part of WikiProject Formula One when official Fiat policy is that Alfa Romeo doesn't race in Formula One, and in fact, throughout history, the majority of Alfa Romeo's racing efforts have been outside of F1, e.g. ETCC, DTM, WTCC, World Sportscar Championship, World Endurance Championship, etc. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 05:41, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The works Alfa Romeo team competed in (and dominated) Formula One in 1950 and 1951. DH85868993 05:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks I'm aware of that, plus about 5 years racing in the 80's. The rest of the time it was sports cars, touring cars, etc. The tag states WikiProject Formula One, an attempt to improve and standardize articles related to Formula One. I'm just wondering if I should be concerned this means that people making edits on sports cars, touring cars, would have to follow WikiProject Formula One conventions and what that entails. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 06:30, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't be too worried about that. In terms of standardization, that mainly applies to articles that are exclusively related to F1 (e.g. F1 race resports and season summaries). For articles like this one that cover more than just F1, we would just be interested in seeing that the F1-related parts are accurate, and consistent with the rest of the F1 articles. DH85868993 06:49, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, when you put it like that, it's no problem - I'll look forward to contributions made by you and the other WikiProject Formula One authors. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 06:56, 17 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Footnotes and References added

I've added a references section. I've noticed some footnotes referring to 'Henry' - would this be Henry, Alan (1985). Brabham, the Grand Prix Cars. Osprey. ISBN 0-905138-36-8 mentioned on the Brabham page? If it's the same one, we should add that to the references section. --Xagent86 (Talk | contribs) 05:42, 19 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's the one. DH85868993 12:51, 11 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggested Split of F1 section

Support. If there's concensus to split the F1 content out into a separate article, please move it to existing redirect Alfa Romeo in Formula One, and then change Alfa Romeo (Formula One) to point there, noting that Alfa Romeo in Formula One follows the quasi-standard naming for such articles (e.g. Porsche in Formula One) -- DH85868993 22:33, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I don't normally edit this article, but for what it's worth as proposer of the split I support that suggestion. I think any F1 team, never mind one of Alfa's pedigree, can sustain a seperate article. --kingboyk 23:13, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support--— Typ932^{T | C} 23:31, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Done - info transferred to Alfa Romeo in Formula One and redirect (Alfa Romeo (Formula One)) updated. DH85868993 02:46, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]