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Rondels not rondeaux

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I corrected that error someone placed in the text. I've gone through Wikisource and they are rondels, not rondeax. Nice rondels by the way. Parnassian, but nice. Alex contributing from L.A. (talk) 09:46, 24 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Cool

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The article looks fantastic now. The first European writer to write in free verse? Walt Whitman is American, but Matthew Arnold wrote some early examples of free verse, I will check when his earliest examples date from. A from L.A. (talk) 10:35, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! The full context for that claim is in the article (the "Prima verba and other early works" section). The sources either make the claim or specify that the claim was made, and one of them refers to Gustave Kahn as the poet about whom one may state the same (although it also argues that Macedonski came before). The whole issue is debatable, and I did not take at face value the claims that he really was the first such poet, but the detail is, much to my surprise, already a staple of Macedonski's biographies. On Arnold: perhaps, but I don't think the comparison should be made in the article(s), unless we find a source actually comparing them (per WP:SYNTH). If it is true, then the two sides of the story seem to ignore each other, and, pending more detail on "who was who", we may have to leave it at that. I hope that what I have written in the article about the whole issue gives the image that this is by no means an indisputable claim (particularly given how I dread the nationalist discourse about "the Romanian firsts"). If not, then please improve this aspect (and any other). Dahn (talk) 10:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'll look into it. There is this quote for example from Peter Dale's Poems of Jules Laforgue: "It is curious that Eliot and Pound found free verse abroad when Tennyson, Arnold and Whitman had already used it in English." A from L.A. (talk) 10:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I've read the detail about the claim now, it is about the poem Hinov which I happened to have read some weeks ago. It is free verse that uses rhyme, written after 1873 unless I'm mistaken. When free verse uses rhyme, the distinction between free verse and simply innovative rhyming verse can become a matter of debate, but Hinov is clearly innovative enough that it is unquestionably free verse, free verse that uses rhyme here & there in a free flow. Matthew Arnold's Dover Beach (1867) apparently is also considered free verse (will verify this, till then see the quote from Peter Dale) using rhyme. Macedonski's poem---the way it's arranged, including very short lines---is different from Arnold's Dover Beach, which is closer to traditional verse forms. Macedonski's Hinov is a better example (in terms of form, my opinion is that Macedonski's Hinov poem kinda sucks, his reveries are banal in that poem) of modern free verse using rhyme, anyway it is an innovation. A from L.A. (talk) 12:08, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I looked at the article Free verse and the article is not very developed or detailed, however the problem we are dealing with is discussed there a bit. I will include mention of Macedonski's Hinov shortly. A from L.A. (talk) 12:40, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hinov could be the earliest extant example of rhymed free verse in a Romance language. A from L.A. (talk) 14:31, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, in The Origins of Free Verse, H. T. Kirby-Smith nominates Barnabe Barnes (d. 1609) as the first free-verse writer in English. - Biruitorul Talk 18:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I will add that to Free verse soon unless you want to. I'm going to expand the article Free verse when I have the resources available. A from L.A. (talk) 19:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, go right ahead; the whole book seems quite interesting, and has a lot to say about John Milton and his use of free verse. - Biruitorul Talk 21:13, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've read my share of Milton, can't say I've read much Macedonski. I've tried to read more of Macedonski's work online but I find myself constantly put off by his taste in poetry. "Hinov" is juvenilia. A from L.A. (talk) 21:17, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I think more about it, even Wordsworth's Ode:Intimations may be considered free verse under some definitions [1]. However as the Peter Dale example shows, the older poets are usually glossed over, though he mentioned Tennyson, Arnold, etc. A from L.A. (talk) 21:26, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, I'm fine with this, but let me point out that a reference to the claim having been made would probably be relevant for the lead. Also, let me point out two other things: the sources that do describe Macedonski as such may have inscrutable definitions of "free verse", "European" or "modern". I.e.: censuring the claim because other sources mention earlier poets having done the same in English may fail one or all of those definitions. But, in any case, invoking sources which do not deal with Macedonski to entirely remove from the lead what generally appears in sources mentioning Macedonski strikes me as a little too close to WP:SYNTH. Overall, it doesn't matter how accurate the claim is: as long as it is voiced neutrally in the article (as I hope I did), it should also be relevant. Right? Dahn (talk) 21:45, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your current version is okay. The problem of "modern"---yes, I noticed that, also these inscrutable defintions of free verse---I noticed that too. It is rather arbitrary and seeing as how Gustave Kahn, Laforgue, etc. had no knowledge of "Hinov"...Macedonski's poem is not very significant at all, other than as an early example. Several of Rimbaud's Illuminations were written in lines and are considered vers libre, they date to 1872---1875 (no one knows the exact dates). A from L.A. (talk) 21:58, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See for example the first part ofVeilees, which unless I'm mistaken is the only free verse poem by Rimbaud that uses rhyme:
    :C'est le repos éclairé, ni fièvre ni langueur, sur le lit ou sur le pré.
    :C'est l'ami ni ardent ni faible. L'ami.
    :C'est l'aimée ni tourmentante ni tourmentée. L'aimée.
    :L'air et le monde point cherchés. La vie.
    :— Etait-ce donc ceci ?
    :— Et le rêve fraîchit.

---A from L.A. (talk) 22:02, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I could not agree more on the principle: Macedonski's poem (which is indeed awful, with or without the free verse thing) was apparently a one-time occurrence in his own career; he himself was not aware of the innovative aspects, but apparently capitalized on them once he was told he may have been a pioneer in the field; it would be indeed ridiculous to expect French and other non-Romanian authors to actually engage in "who gets there first" races, especially when Macedonski was one of the "contenders". But, as absurd, obtuse and biased the claim may be, it is one of the most relevant things about Macedonski. Certainly not one of the most relevant things about European literature, vers libre, or modernity - it's a decent detail for the lead here, it would be indecent as anything other than (at most) a passing mention in articles such as free verse. Dahn (talk) 22:09, 2 December 2008 (UTC) It´s stupid[reply]

Yeah, the poem is so awful I don't want to mention it in Free verse, even though it is an early example. I'm going to remove mention. A from L.A. (talk) 22:12, 2 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WP:Poetry Assessment

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the Poetry Project has recently changed this article to B class due to good referencing, though we do have questions about some of theWP:Redlinks and other small issues in the article. Please feel free to discuss the redlink issue here and maybe we can help to fill in some of the pages or decide to unlink a few of the terms that will not be made into pages in the near future, increasing this articles GAC chances.Mrathel (talk) 14:17, 18 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Info on Macedonski's inclusion in Testament - Anthology of Modern Romanian Verse - Bilingual Edition (Daniel Ionita, Minerva 2012)

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What is the best way to include the fact that Macedonski has been included (Rondel of the Dying Roses/Rondelul rozelor ce mor) in Testament - Anthology of Modern Romanian Verse - Bilingual Edition (English/Romanian) - Daniel Ionita, Editura Minerva 2012? The work is of some significance, since it is the first comprehensive representation of the whole of Romanian poetry in English (well, from 1850, starting with Alecsandri, to the present, finishing with the likes of Ioan Es.Pop, Daniel Banulescu, Lucian Vasilescu, Nora Iuga etc).

Orgins

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Since he was grandson of Dimitris Macedonski, he had and Greek origins, not only Vlach or Slav. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.190.95.249 (talk) 20:53, 25 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

"Serb" and "LGBT"

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Macedonski's origins are unclear by all definitions. He thought himself a Lithuanian, which is to say that he did not identify as any kind of South Slav or, even less so, Greek or Aromanian. The factual origins may in fact be Slavic, but we cannot say for sure that they were Bulgarian or Serb -- in large part, this is because the divide between Bulgarians and Serbs was extremely blurry before 1870 (Romanian sources routinely called Bulgarians "Serbs", even though both peoples were just across the Danube). As for him being Greek -- I know this fashion a la Mormon baptism, but it is entirely questionable that even his ancestor Dimitrie/Dimitris/Demetar thought of himself as Greek. This is not a game, people.

Neither is it a game to claim that Macedonski was LGBT based on vague allegations and someone's (whose?) guess that he is the basis for a gay protagonist in Apollinaire's work. If this were in any way more substantiated, I would add the category myself; but it is not. Dahn (talk) 11:48, 29 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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