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Talk:Alexander Prokhorenko

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Archiving online sources Comment

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User:Muvindu Perera, User:Mhhossein, User:Dl2000 and User:Tiptoethrutheminefield: Thanks, all, for this article. It brought tears to my eyes, especially the photo of Alexander and his wife. We don't want to lose these links! So, I have archived all of them through Webcite, and added the archive links to each citation. Here's the info on how to do this WP:WEBCITE also see Template:Webcite. The easiest thing to do is to make a bookmarklet, as described at WP:WEBCITE. You can add the archive url into the whichever citation template you are using. You can also use the Wayback machine, but I haven't tried that one WP:WAYBACK Thanks again. Tribe of Tiger (talk) 23:08, 4 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Tribe of Tiger: Many thanks for your useful points. --Mhhossein (talk) 06:14, 5 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth: June 17th or 21st?

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Please confirm the subject's date of birth. It's "21 June" in the main text, but "17 June" in the infobox. Thanks. --PFHLai (talk) 22:14, 4 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Sources

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Some of the sources that are used on this page are in my opinion problematic. I tried to address this in an edit [1] but that was revered [2]. I'll explain a little more why I think the sources are problematic, and propose solutions:

  • CNN: [3] This CNN source reports about Alexander Prokhorenko by ironically citing Sputnik, a deprecated source (WP:DEPS). The CNN source doesn't present new facts but only repeats an unnamed Sputnik article. The CNN source is used for:
    • "Alexander Prokhorenko was married and expecting his first child"; I can't find a reliable English source for this, only tabloids and Sputnik. I found a Russian source, a local newspaper from Prokhorenko's birth place, that contains this information: https://ria56.ru/posts/4564566611234.htm. I propose to use this source in stead of the CNN source.
    • "a teacher at Prokhorenko's former school is reported as saying that she and others now wanted to rename the Gorodetskoy Middle School after him." I think this is not relevant for this article, so I propose to remove this text.
  • Madre Russia [4] This is a questionable source (WP:QS); it contains bias and fabrications, for example "He made his way with his Kalashnikov, killing more than 100 terrorists in close quarters. However, due to these continuous armed fighting, Prokhorenko ran out of ammunition and was surrounded by ISIS terrorists." The site seems to be a personal website of Luca D'Agostini (WP:SPS). I propose to use an alternative Italian source: https://www.lanazione.it/lucca/cronaca/la-russia-ringrazia-ufficialmente-vagli-sotto-foto-1.3388040 this is a local newspaper. Alternatively https://tass.com/defense/1013812 can be used, this source is in English.
  • warheroes.ru: [5] This is a site with user-generated content, without providing sources (WP:UGC). The source is used for:
    • "Prokhorenko was from the village of Gorodki in Orenburg Oblast". I propose to again use https://ria56.ru/posts/4564566611234.htm for this.
    • "Since January 2016, he took part in the Russian military operation in Syria as a forward observer tasked to carry out the targeting of airstrikes at ISIS militant positions". I can't find a source for the "since January 2016" claim. Actually, the source warheroes.ru says December 2015/January 2016 based on unnamed sources. I propose to remove the 'since January 2016' part. TASS says "[He] was tasked with guiding Russian warplanes to terrorist targets near the Tadmor populated locality in Homs province." in https://tass.com/defense/873235, so I propose to use that article as the source.

Another piece of information that keeps popping up in this page is that all of the approaching terrorists were also killed by the airstrike at Alexander Prokhorenko's position. This information is now in the lead of the page. I can't find a credible source for this information. I very much doubt there is one, almost nothing is known about his death. All Russian military deaths are state secrets [6]; We only know about Alexander Prokhorenko's death because Putin gave him the Hero of the Russian Federation award. This was for "courage and heroism displayed in the performance of military duty" [7], so no info about his death. TASS, the Russian government news agency, and interfax give some more info, but never claim that all of the approaching terrorists were also killed. They only say "He called an airstrike on himself when his position was surrounded by the militants." I propose to remove the information "all of the approaching terrorists were also killed". Difool (talk) 02:33, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1. CNN isn't a deprecated source. Like other sources, they look at official publications and filter what to report on. The CNN link is not a mirror site of Sputnik and nor would any sane user think that CNN is in cahoots with, have a conflict of interest with, or is affiliated with it in any way. 2. Warheroes.ru is not a user-generated site ANYBODY can edit. They have a team of editors. Many of whom are published writers of encyclopedias and historians with awards for their work. Heck, one of the site's chief editors (who has written several aviation history encyclopedias and is widely respected as an expert on Russian aviation history) got in hot water with the Russian government for bucking the official line and attending the Haytarma movie premeire (much to the annoyance of consul Andreev). There is wide consensus that warheroes.ru is a reliable source, and if you find a mistake or contradiction in an article, they are very responsive about responding to inquiries and providing sources. 3. The ISIS militants in Palmyra he was fighting were terrorists by the textbook definition of terrorist. RS indicate that airstrike he called on himself killed them too. Ergo the sentence is not problematic. The purpose of the airstrike wasn't solely to kill him as suicide, it was to take out those around him as well. 4. It is well known that he was married and expecting a child. There is NO rule that a RS in English has to be found - for many articles, NO english sources are used! 5. All the information currently in the article was able to be added because it was consensus. A new user with few edits demanding a barage of changes won't change that.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 04:41, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@1: The CNN article talks about an Sputnik article and lists what that article says in a ironic tone. Why would you then use the CNN article as source for the Sputnik info?
@2: Here on Wikipedia [8] ODMP, Officer Down Memorial Page, is listed as an unacceptable user-generated site. ODMP is a non-profit organization that maintains a website listing American law enforcement officers who have died in the line of duty. ODMP maintains a detailed list of criteria. The site also uses a research staff and volunteers, same as warheroes.ru. What is the difference?
@3: To clarify, I wasn't talking about the terrorists/militants label, only the claim that they too were all killed. You say what the purpose of the airstrike was, and that sounds logical, but you don't say where you get that info from. I agree of course that when a RS is available, that the sentence is no problem.
@4: Yes, I agree. In my edit I removed the source for this info because I thought it wasn't necessary. I think the local Russian news site is more reliable when reporting about Prokhorenko's youth and family than English sources.
@5: I created this account in 2008, but was mainly active on other Wikipedia language sites. So I'm not exactly a new Wikipedia user. Difool (talk) 14:48, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
1. CNN isn't deprecated and is a high-profile news source. The story making it to CNN is completely relevant. 2. The one thing that all the user-generated sites have in common - from Twitter to findagrave and ODMP - is that anyone can create an account to edit the site. Warheroes isn't a deprecated source and has never been - there is wide consensus that it is a reliable source. Pages can't be edited by just anybody, nor can random people get accounts to generate content. Its editorial system is on par with that of regular newspapers - a small group of staffers are permitted to edit the site, and the general public can send in comments & questions about articles via email or the comments section, end of story. 3. Is there any source that says none of the terrorists were killed or that only Prokhorenko was killed? 4. Removing sources for existing info? Not good. 5. What wikis are you most active on? Ukrainian wikipedia? Keep in mind that rules vary significantly by wiki.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 14:59, 30 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@2: You say that anyone can create an account to edit the ODMP site. AFAICS that is not true, you can't edit pages if you create an ODMP account [9]. For ODMP, you submit info here [10], which is then reviewed. For warheroes.ru, you submit info here [11], which is then reviewed. Same concept.
@3: No, I don't know a source that says that. This info is not in the page, so I don't see why such a source is necessary.
@5: The Dutch Wikipedia. I don't speak Russian, if you're hinting at that with the Ukrainian comment. Difool (talk) 03:27, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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