Talk:Albanisation

Albania Mid‑importance

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This article was nominated for deletion on 2006 June 5. The result of the discussion was Keep.

General comments

The text seems to have an anti-Albanian bias. Travelbird 03:37, 28 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

-Is this an actual term? If not article should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.9.215.87 (talk • contribs) 21:01, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Disruptive edit the references are clear and to the pointdiff Megistias (talk) 15:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Uncited

Kosovo (Albanian: Kosova) is a good example; Kosovo was in the early 15th century, dominantly Serb, but since Albanians great diaspora, the Albanians have overrun the serbian population in Kosovo, making Serbs leave, Kosovo has been Albanisated. Albanisation of territories can also be seen in western Macedonia, as well as in Northwestern Greece, Arbereshe, in Italy and Montenegro. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FrancisTyers (talk • contribs) 23:00, 5 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Its actually the opposite, how can Albanians one of the smallest peoples in Europe and Balkans Albanizy other several times bigger peoples than them, like Slavs and others, forget about Kosovo and 15th century, before 700 A.D there were no slavic peoples even close to Balkan region and now almost entire Balkans, eastern Europe and the largest country on Earth Russia is Slavic. Now that Is what I would call Albanisation sorry SLAVisation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.100.23 (talk) 01:04, 13 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Albanian identity didn't existed before 700 A.D. There were Illyrians and other peoples, but Albanian identity didn't existed. Albanians are small nation but Serbs were not that numerous and yet, even that comparison doesn't make sense and I will now show you how because you clearly don't understand some stuff. And, if we accept theory propagated by Albanian and some Western historians that Illyrians are ancestors of Albanians, to say that all Illyrians are Albanians and that it gives you right for all territories in which Illyrians lived is the same as the same as to say that because Serbs are Slavs, Serbs have right to Poland or some other Slavic country which is clearly, first of all, a logical mistake. Albanisation of those regions happened during the rule of Ottoman empire. Majority of Serbs in Kosovo kept their Orthodox religion and didn't accepted Islam. Data? Look at the Ottoman demographics of Kosovo and region or Austro-Hungarian reports, as I said somewhere else - both countries were not friendly towards Serbia and their reports are best data. Serbs joined many revolts against Ottomans - Long War (Banat uprising after which Ottomans under Koca Sinan Pasa, Ottoman statesman of Albanian ethnicity burnt the relics of Orthodox Saint Sava; Serb uprising of 1596–97 in Montenegro and Herzegovina, caused by burning of relics of Saint Sava), Great Turkish War where Serbian rebels fought against Ottomans on the side of Holy League, Uprising in Vučitrn (which is in Kosovo and was against Ottoman Pashas and Agas of Albanian ethnicity like Ferhat Aga which was harshly crushed and after which many local Serbs forcibly accepted Islam), First Serbian Uprising, Koča's frontier rebellion, Second Serbian Uprising etc. Because of that and because some failed, many Serbs left Kosovo so you have two Great Serbian Migrations (about of tens of thousands of people which is big number in that time for such little territory) from Kosovo and rest of southern Serbia and there are a lot of historic materials, books etc on that and it is accepted by modern history (except Noel Malcom who still claims that it didn't happened in those numbers). On the other side, majority of Albanians, as you can see today if you look demographics even now, accepted Islam and after Skenderbeg, a lot of them went and fought for the Ottomans. You have a lot of Ottoman statesmen and military people like Abdi Pasha the Albanian, Kara Ahmed Pasha, Serdar Ferhad Pasha, Arabacı Ali Pasha etc. If you look again in the Ottoman records, you can see that after 16th century there was migration of Albanians from Albania towards Kosovo. You can see it even in some Kosovo Albanian surnames which are shared by a lot of people from Northern Albania and it is accepted by most of the modern historians. Migration from Albania to Kosovo, Macedonia etc is proven and I will not discuss it more. A lot of Muslim Albanians got lands from Ottoman empires because they served Ottoman army well (and it was common thing in a lot of countries in that time). A lot of Catholic Albanians ran from Northern Albania because of the pressure of Muslim Albanians and settled down in Kosovo (funny thing that for example, family of Ramush Haradinaj, a local leader of Albanians were Catholics from Northern Albania, as it was stated by him - you can find it online). And, as a result, Serbs were leaving those areas under the pressure of Ottomans and local Albanian pashas, Albanians were migrating there and in the second half of 19th century Albanians became majority. Interesting thing is that if you look Austro-Hungarian reports, like that one from Austrian physician, dr. Joseph Müller, you see that from 110.000 Muslims, 38.000 were Serbs and rest were Albanians. As there were no conversion from Islam to Orthodox and majority of them stayed, I am now asking you why are they missing in next reports? Where did they disappeared? They were Albanised. And if you read the article carefully, sources too and if you are not biased, you will see that Albanisation did happened and it was expected under those circumstances. It wasn't very big, but it was significant for the region. All the people I mentioned and reports etc you can find even here, on Wikipedia, with a lot of proven references and sources. --James Jim Moriarty (talk) 14:04, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian propaganda

The majority of the population of Kosovo has always been Albanians. In thw 15th century Kosovo was dominantly Albanian. The term Albanisation is somthing Serbs have made up. Albanians have always been victims of Serbianization. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Noah30 (talk • contribs) 20:13, 28 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Look again Ottoman demographics of those areas and you will see that Serbs were absolute majority in Kosovo in 15th century and if you count Austro-Hungarian reports, Albanians became majority there only in the second half of 19th century. You have independent data from countries which both were not friendly towards Serbia. So, saying that "Albanisation is made-up" and calling upon false arguments like yours is real propaganda since it is not supported by any sources. --James Jim Moriarty (talk) 13:34, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ottoman demographics have not really been explored and have been highly politicized by both (nationalist) Albanian and Serb historians (see: Serbian historiography, Albanian historiography and also consult the work Anscombe, Frederick (2006). "The Ottoman Empire in Recent International Politics - II: The Case of Kosovo". The International History Review. 28 (4) [1]) who actually looks at the Ottoman archive. About saying that one country was not friendly is up to conjecture. One could make the same argument and say that parts of Europe back in the day where hostile to Albanians and their interests (i.e Russia etc) because they were/are Muslims. Albanians don't appear in the (church) records of Serbs because they are Muslims and not Orthodox, the same way that Serbs don't figure much in Ottoman records because they are Orthodox and not Muslims (see Anscombe). In Ottoman archival records, the area of Kosovo (and the adjacent Toplica and Morava areas were known as Arnavutluk, or Albania [2]) and numerous references to the Arnavuts (Albanians) of the area (usually to do with civil disturbances, tax issues etc). Read the Anscombe article. Its non-nationalistic scholarship. On "Albanisation", Albanians absorbed Slavic peoples and they also absorbed Albanians at certain points in time (due to religious, geographical and other factors). However that Arnautaš theory that was advocated for a long time in Serbian circles was overall political propaganda and is noted in scholarship [3].Resnjari (talk) 14:05, 22 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

My response was towards the assumption that "there were no Albanisation in Kosovo" and that it is made-up term by some nationalists. I am glad that you too have confirmed that it not true. Nobody said that there were no "Slavicization" of Albanians but there are no evidences that it happened in Kosovo as term "Albanian" showed first in modern day Albania in 10th century by one text which dates to reign of Samuel of Bulgaria^[1]. In Serbian historiography, Albanians are firstly mentioned in charter by Stefan Nemanja in 1198, ^[2] when he took the city Pilot in modern Albania. By that time, territory of Kosovo was under Serbian principality and Albanians weren't mentioned in any demographics or charters in church books or by Serbian rulers. Conclusion is simple. Why were they mentioned in Pilot, but not in some other territory? Because they weren't there or that percentage of them in the local population was insignificant. That area was called "Arnavutluk" by Ottomans but you are missing the time-frame when it was mentioned. Not before 17th century. Also, in Serbian chronicles you have the names of the locals - majority of them had Slavic names and surnames and a very little Albanian names (only in the villages around Prizren). Look at the 1455 defter of the Branković lands^[3]. Look at the defter of 1487 in the Branković lands - same thing. Austro-Hungary in the late 19th century and at the beginning of the 20th clearly didn't have friendly politics towards Serbia and the reasons are widely familiar but I mentioned that because a lot of times I hear arguments about some propaganda by "Serbia-friendly states" so, I took Austro-Hungarian reports for better neutrality and because they dealed with that topic a lot. As for Austro-Hungarians, as I mentioned, you have Joseph Müller and his book [Albanien, Rumelien und die Österreichisch-montenegrinische Gränze, Prag, 1844] where he gave a rather good estimation of number of Serbs and Albanians, as I said before. By Austrian statistics from 1899. Albanians constituted 47.88% of the population of Kosovo and Serbs 43.7%^[4]. After that, in demographics estimations you have clear Albanian majority. I will look at the literature you recommend me but you give me some articles, estimations or demographics like I recommended to you, which implies that Albanians were majority in the Kosovo before 19th century. If you have some good literature in which I could see arguments that Albanians were majority in Kosovo from Middle ages and not the Serbs, I will be glad. If not, then, I don't see why to argue or talk when we accepted the latter. Also, thanks for literature you recommended me, I will read it very carefully.James Jim Moriarty (talk) 19:02, 23 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3; Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198–200
^ Thalloczy/Jirecek/Sufflay, Acta et diplomata res Albaniae mediae aetatis, Vindobonae, MCMXIII, I, 113 (1198).
^ see https://books.google.rs/books?id=d-PGoQEACAAJ&redir_esc=y
^ Detailbeschreibung des Sandzaks Plevlje und des Vilajets Kosovo (Mit 8 Beilagen und 10 Taffeln), Als Manuskript gedruckt, Vien 1899, 80–81.

The term

The term Albania in Albanian languge don´t exist als souch how it is in english and other gjerman and latin family languges. In fact albanisation is a term witch is meaning, calling more Albanians (Albanian is "Shqiptar") elements in souch languges Albanian.

This is comming from peopel who dont know nothing about albanians in real life, but from some boocks and idiotic logic thate only Albanians in Albania are Albanias. For souch peopel is good to be created a article Shqiptar, Shqipëria and Shqipnija after thate they will understand thate the word albanisation hase nothing to do with "albanisation" but with repareng the measteks in english languge witch is comming from the Serbian ortodox literatur. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hipi Zhdripi (talk • contribs) -using the IP 88.70.184.110 (talk · contribs)- 15:14, 24 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

POV Tag

I'm doing POV tag cleanup. Whenever an POV tag is placed, it is necessary to also post a message in the discussion section stating clearly why it is thought the article does not comply with POV guidelines, and suggestions for how to improve it. This permits discussion and consensus among editors. This is a drive-by tag, which is discouraged in WP, and it shall be removed. Future tags should have discussion posted as to why the tag was placed, and how the topic might be improved. Better yet, edit the topic yourself with the improvements. This statement is not a judgement of content, it is only a cleanup of frivolously and/or arbitrarily placed tags. No discussion, no tag.Jjdon (talk) 21:39, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality disputed / Original research

I have added two templates to the article because the article contains many claims that are not verified. The article is based on original research and this is against the Wikipedia-rules. I beleive this article is created for propaganda purposes and does not describe a phenomenon. --Noah30 (talk) 09:20, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The most stupid article ever on WP

Wow, I can't believe that this article existed, my faith on WP fades rapidly ... no more comments.--Pinjolli 22:03, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

this article is made of slavic propaganda ... ten children ??? where is the SERIOUS source for this ?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.201.15.171 (talk) 17:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rm OR

Removed OR in the first paragraph. No references provided for a full year. --Sulmues ^(talk) 14:12, 24 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Independent scholarship dismissed

With this edit editor ZjarriRrethues added assertion that process of Albanisation is theory which "independent scholarship as dismissed".

The source for this assertion is page 20 of work written by Noel Malcolm, a president of Anglo-Albanian Association.

I read trough page 20 but could not find any text which support the assertion that independent scholarship. I apologize if I overlooked it.

Will you ZjarriRrethues please be so kind to present a quote which support the assertion about "independent scholarship" you added to the text of this article?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 08:48, 29 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Orphaned references in Albanisation

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Albanisation's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "MORACA2":

From Serbo-Montenegrins in Albania: "Archived copy". Archived from the original on 2012-03-28. Retrieved 2016-05-02.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: archived copy as title (link)
From Vraka: "Archived copy". Archived from the original on 2012-03-28. Retrieved 2016-05-02.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: archived copy as title (link)

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 23:27, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Migration

The migration sub section is claiming extraordinary claims like 300 000 Albanians moving from Albania to Kosovo per invitation by Tito(Liotta 1999). this is extraordinary as it goes against what demographic data says (see, Demographics of Kosovo). this makes it Wikipedia:EXTRAORDINARY and Wikipedia:UNDUE. the other source is Sremac 1999 whcih has been criticized for support Serbian national narratives [4] and for minimizing ethnic cleansing [5]. Durraz0 (talk) 17:07, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rahovec

I've already removed the Arnaut theory on grounds of ridiculous POV. However, Rahovec does not seem better. The whole section can not be upheld with one (non-RS?) source. The whole topic about Kosovo is highly debated and one should provide reliable, modern sources. AlexBachmann (talk) 21:39, 18 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Serbs and Montenegrins

The beginning of the paragraph 'Serbs and Montenegrins' in the 'In Albania' section uses a Serbian language source for its allegation. However, no source confirming this allegation could be found in other languages, which heavily impacts the reliability of this claim. In no other language of Wikipedia is this mentioned either. It should be removed or provided with another source. 178.197.199.145 (talk) 12:16, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would be great if Golikum actually got involved in this talk page discussion. I think you made a fair point though. Alltan (talk) 01:31, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So we remove assertions that can be backed by sources found solely in one language? Very good to know. --Local hero ^talk 02:52, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We are not talking about sources. We are talking about one singular source whose content is being questioned by quite a few. No one seems to be able to provide other sources to back its claims either. 194.230.144.10 (talk) 11:46, 15 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th - 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3; Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198–200

[2] Thalloczy/Jirecek/Sufflay, Acta et diplomata res Albaniae mediae aetatis, Vindobonae, MCMXIII, I, 113 (1198).

[3] see https://books.google.rs/books?id=d-PGoQEACAAJ&redir_esc=y

[4] Detailbeschreibung des Sandzaks Plevlje und des Vilajets Kosovo (Mit 8 Beilagen und 10 Taffeln), Als Manuskript gedruckt, Vien 1899, 80–81.

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