Talk:Albanian nationalism in Albania

RS

How much suitable those newspapers, except of CNN of course, can be understood from the tone they use, together with the way they generally write about topics of conflicts between Greece and other countries. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:43, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

All newspapers listed are reliable sources. If you feel that's not the case, go to WP:RSN. It's good you stopped reverting btw. Khirurg (talk) 22:45, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that Greek sources are inherently not reliable? Because I doubt you are able to understand the tone of Greek language media. Khirurg (talk) 22:46, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Do not put words in my mouth; I never said that a Greek source is not reliable just because it is Greek. One saying that a source is not reliable because it is Albania is the editor who first added that content to the article. Writing on a Wiki article that Idrizi demanded that the Greeks shall be deprived of their right to self-determination in the upcoming Census in Albania is clear cut POV pushing. The 100000 number was claimed in a sport banner, and you can write that on the article. That PDIU and some in Greece oppose each other on the claim that Greece committed genocide is a known fact, and that can be added. I can very well see the tone those newspapers use, and I can bring examples here, if you do not see the obvious. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:02, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

All sources listed are WP:RS. You are clearly implying that they are not reliable because they are Greek, which is bordering on racism. How about you show us how these sources' "tone" is problematic? Let's hear it. Don't just make claims, prove them. And why did you remove CNN? Khirurg (talk) 23:16, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Btw, I really do hope you mean that this [1] is your last revert here. And you really shouldn't be lecturing others while coming close to violating 3RR yourself. Khirurg (talk) 23:28, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Ktrimi, first, per WP:BIASED, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. So the "suitability" due to tone is out of the question. Wikipedia is quite clear on this. You can however, instead of reverting the information, to adjust it so that it meets a more neutral tone.

Second, the sources used here have never been questioned as WP:RS and are extensively used across English Wikipedia without any issues in the past, except Proto Thema for which objections were raised by Albanian editors, for which I already took the measures to replace it with similar one by To Vima which is a well-respected and reliable newspaper of Greece. If you feel that they are not suitable for use in Wikipedia, feel free to take the matter to the RSN. The only valid point you got there is the neutral tone of the newly added information. if you feel it wasn't written already in a neutral tone enough, feel free to make the needed changes that you feel can address the issue you are having. In this, you will find me at your side.

Many editors have tried to revert in the past any information that would expose far-right in the Balkans, and especially Greece (Golden Dawn's landsliding defeat in the polls), North Macedonia (VMRO-DPMNE's policies called "macedonism"), Albania (PDIU on the Cham and its hostility against Greek minority of Albania), and Turkey (Aegean Dispute, Syrian invasion and Cyprus dispute), I am of the opinion that the trends of nationalism in these countries should not be muted but rather be covered and I somehow had the impression you were of the same opinion, no? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:39, 2 July 2020 (UTC)

Edit: The Reliable Sources Noticeboard can be found here: [2]. If for whatever reason Editors unfamiliar with Greek newspapers and political news websites are having concerns about reliability of ToVima, CNN, Liberal and so on, they can ask for a third party opinion in the link above. If you can't trust me, you can at least trust the volunteers at the RSN who are reputable for their objectivity in evaluating WP:RS. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 00:14, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

If you repeat the crappy nonsense about me "clearly implying" that a source is not RS just becuase it is Greek, I will not respond here again, and you can then seek dispute resolution with another format. To Vima uses the usual nationalistic claim about a supposed Turkish-Cham conspiracy. It goes on to say that the Cham issue uses falsification of history, without elaborating on the important details of its own claim. The article clearly is meant to show the Alb side in a negative point of view. The CNN article says that the claim about 100000 victims was made in a sport banner, not by Idrizi as suggested by the text you tried to add. The TOC article too is good in that is says that the claim was made in a sport banner. I missed that source, though it does not counter with what I said before. The reaction of the Greek government can be added, as long as it is given as a reaction rather than an academic fact. Liberal not only uses a tone that does not allow anyone to use it as RS, but lately it also published fake news about Turkey taking a naval base in Albania; a typical nationalistic claim in Greece. To sum up again what I previously said, that Idrizi wants Albania not respect the minority's rights or that the Cham issue is being used politically will not be added with such sources. You are free to disagree and try some rv as you in a hopeless way often do, but that will not make me change mind. You can find proper sources or just seek dispute resolution with other formats (DRN, RfC etc). Some segments of the Alb media too makes wild claims about Greece but not everything found online will be added to Wiki. Finally, do not post here every two minutes as it causes edit conflicts. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

You have my apologies if the way I wrote it was giving you the impression that it implied Idrizi personally made that banner. I saw your very valid point and for this reason, I hasted to correct my mistake: clarifications were added in line with the WP:RS, along with the locations of gatherings and other details. Hope you are acknowledging my fixes.

As for Turkey-related information: Turkey has no place in this article which is about Albanian nationalism. Not only I have avoided adding anything about Turkey there, but also I am against mentioning this country and this is why you haven't seen that country being mentioned in my additions. However, I am afraid the sources are telling the truth about Turkey using the Cham issue for its own purposes. I have many (note: many) sources confirming Turkey's use of the Cham issue for its own political purposes and, if my memory doesn't fail me, someone else has already added info about Turkey's use of the issue in an cham-related article in Wikipedia. Don't remember which one, but it is mentioned.

Given that you see "that the Greeks shall be deprived of their right to self-determination in the upcoming Census in Albania" as POV, I will appreciate alot if can you offer a more neutrally toned version of it? Mine is just a loose quotation of what the source said. The reason I preferred to have it as close to the source as possible, is exactly to avoid having it challenged for being "unsuppored by the source". But I see, that what it seemed ok to me, is not necessarily the case for you. So any help in addressing your POV concern will be appreciated!--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 00:31, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I feel bad that the sentence seemed too POV for sticking as closely to what the source said, so went right away to edit, while still being in line with what source says.

The:

• PDIU's head, Shpëtim Idrizi also targeted the Greek minority of Albania, demanding that the Greeks shall be deprived of their right to self-determination in the upcoming Census in Albania, vowing to campaign for the Census's cancellation, otherwise.

has been changed into:

• PDIU's head, Shpëtim Idrizi also commented on the issue of the Greek minority of Albania, asking that the right to self-determination for the Greeks isn't taken in account in the upcoming Census in Albania, vowing to campaign for the Census's cancellation, otherwise.

But this may still be not neutral enough so feel free to do it yourself.--- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 00:42, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I see that you modified the sport banner thing, so that is now OK. That problems between Greece and other countries benefit Turkey's foreign policy is nothing new, but that does not give newspapers the right to paint the Cham issue as Turkish conspiracy without giving facts, or to spread fake news that Turkey is taking naval bases in Albania. If we all start to use newspaper articles without any kind of peer review or academic oversight, the Greece-Albania articles will become very different from what they are now. On the census thing, Idrizi gave an interview [3]. Sth can be written in the lines of "Shpetim Idrizi has proposed that in the 2020 census people should not be asked about their ethnicity. He claims that Greece wants to artificially increase the number of Greeks in the census by putting pressure on Albanian immigrants in Greece and th Albanian government using a war law and the EU membership. The Greek side claims that the proposals of Idrizi harm the right of the Greek minirority in Albania to decleare its ethnic indentity". An official statement of Greece would be better than the newspaper's opinion. Ktrimi991 (talk) 00:56, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Top Channel, link above, can also be used as it gives in a neutral way the stances of both Idrizi and Greece. A statement by the Greek government can also be used as RS. But not the opinion of the clearly biased newspaper. Ktrimi991 (talk) 01:16, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Stop playing games. If we replace a reliable source with an official statement from the Greek government, you will then claim the Greek government is not RS. To Vima is WP:RS, whether you like it or not. If you feel otherwise, go to RSN. Till then, we will continue to use it. And please go ahead with your WP:DIVA threats If you repeat the crappy nonsense about me "clearly implying" that a source is not RS just becuase it is Greek, I will not respond here again, and you can then seek dispute resolution with another format.. Go ahead, no one will mind. Just don't edit-war again, ok? Khirurg (talk) 04:17, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

IMO Turkey has no place here in this article. Whatever Turkey does or does not, may be more suitable, perhaps, in the Albania-Turkey relations or the Justice and Development Party (AKP) and Turkish Cooperation and Coordination Agency articles instead of here? In all case, it leaves me totally uninterested, hence why I have never bothered adding info about Turkey's actions in Albania topic areas. As I didn't about its involvement against the Prespa Agreement between Greece and North Macedonia, as well as Turkey's efforts to undermine Balkan region's close diplomatic ties with the West as part of its neo-Ottomanism. Just there is no point in discussing about Turkey on this article. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 10:47, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I will remove the section - all of it. I will do so not because I believe that Greek newspapers are per se unreliable, but because @SilentResident: you quoted an interpretation of Idrizi's position from a Greek point of view, not what Idrizi himself said. That creates a gap because you claim that Shpëtim Idrizi also targeted the Greek minority of Albania, demanding that the Greeks shall be deprived of their right to self-determination in the upcoming Census in Albania, vowing to campaign for the Census's cancellation, otherwise., but we can read what Idrizi has actually said, which is that people who haven't been in the country in the last 12 months shouldn't be included in the census. If in some Greek media that counts as "Albanian nationalism" so be it, but don't force that in wikipedia, in wikivoice, as a fact. To use as fact one interpretation that comes from news media of a state with a vested interest in the process is POV.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:11, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Also, no offense meant, but I won't take your word that a newspaper is reliable in its reporting. I will reach that conclusion after I do my own assessment of bibliography. There are authors who have done tremendous research to help readers in the assessment of the reliability of local publishers. I have in pdf De Gruyter's Visual Communication (2014) which says that To Vima is centrist and mildly nationalist. It doesn't mean that it should be excluded as a source, but it means that you can't use it in wikivoice.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:52, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I will remove the section - all of it. I will do so not because I believe that Greek newspapers are per se unreliable, but because @SilentResident: you quoted an interpretation of Idrizi's position from a Greek point of view, not what Idrizi himself said. You removed all of the section for a sentence which constitutes only a part of the section? You removed everything, reliable sources, info about politics, gatherings, the banners, the FM's comments, which had nothing to do with Indrizi's comments. You removed absolutely everything and sorry but this is not an argument, is crossing the lines of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. This isn't an answer, so I will ask for an explanation of the removal. If you are not able to explain it, then you will have to restore it edit: already restored it but without Indrizi's statements.

As for Indrizi's statements, the source wrote: Idrizi did not restrict himself to the «demands of the Chams» this time for international recognition of the »genocide», return of properties, erection of a monument and the opening of a cemetery in Greece but lashed out against the Greek Minority in Albania especially for the issue of the upcoming population Census based on free self-determination. (Original: Ο Ιντρίζι δεν περιορίστηκε αυτή την φορά στα «αιτήματα των Τσάμηδων» περί διεθνούς αναγνώρισης της «γενοκτονίας», επιστροφής περιουσιών, ανέγερση μνημείου και λειτουργία νεκροταφείου στην Ελλάδα αλλά καταφέρθηκε με μένος εναντίον της Ελληνικής Μειονότητας στην Αλβανία ειδικά για το ζήτημα της επικείμενης απογραφής πληθυσμού με βάση τον ελεύθερο αυτοπροσδιορισμό.) No "forces" nothing. If you have any source which clarifies on Indrizi's statements, you are welcome to share them here so we can evaluate them and act accordingly.

But the rest, of the senction's removal was completely unjustified. Like how an admin in past content dispute said: a common mistake which has to be discouraged in content disputes, is the blanking of entire sections/paragraphs to the article using a particular but problematic part of that as a pretext for doing so. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:09, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I see that there may be more to the Indrizi's comments. I am looking excitedly into the RS you can provide us so that we see and evaluate the situation about them. If the Greek source distorted Indrizi's statements or if it didn't presented them fully, then this is something we will really need know. For this, we can't stick on editorial opinions. Per Wikipedia's rules, a RS can only be countered by another RS on the issue. I would really appreciate if a RS with the full Indrizi statement is brought to our knowledge. That will be very helpful. The rest of the paragraph which isn't about Indrizi's statements, has been restored into the article as they are sourced by CNN and Liberal and aren't about Indrizi's statements which is your voiced concern here. Or is there something I am missing about CNN's and Liberal's information as well? About political gatherins, banners and such?

Edit: it may be obvious but the WP:RS you got and we need in order to be able to look into the problem about the statements thoroughly, has to be about June 28 statements, not about statements that he has made at other time periods. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:26, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

The interview Ktrimi991 quoted maps out his full analysis. Madje nëse i referohemi edhe ligjit për censusin marrin pjesë thotë të gjithë shtetasit shqiptar, shtetasit e huaj të cilët ndodhen në Shqipëri në 12 muajt e fundit, pra vetëm ata që janë rezident. E thënë kështu në qoftë se Shqipëria ka rreth 3.7 milion banorë dhe 2.8 milionë banorë kanë qenë rezident para 10 vitesh në censusin e fundit. I bie që 30% e Shqiptarëve nuk do të jenë pjesë në këtë ushtrim dhe sigurisht do të mungojnë edhe 30 % i minoritarëve duke e marrë në pikëpamjen formale [If we refer to the census law then it means that all Albanian or foreign citizens who have been in Albania within the last 12 months can participate in the census, meaning those who live in the country. In this context, [..] it means that about 30% of all Albanians won't be part of the census and it also means that 30% of all the minorities won't be part of the census. (in comparison to the last census)] From the point of view of someone whose only interest in the census is how many people of his/her community are counted, I can get why s/he might object. But a census functions in that way everywhere and it has to function in that way because its primary raison d'etre is the mapping of economic indicators, not the counting of minorities. Minorities everywhere in the Balkans (except for Bulgaria) are declining and the exact same objection you have in this case, others have about their communities elsewhere. Since that part is now out of the article, we can leave it at that - with the inclusion of the soccer match incident.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:35, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

There are 2 issues.

First of all, Ktrimi991's TopChannel source is about an interview Indrizi gave back in January 2020, while the ToVima source which we are debating here, is about comments Indrizi made in the June 2020 gatherings for Chameria. I refrained from restoring the sourced information back to the article because I somehow thought you had sources countering WP:RS regarding Indrizi's new June 2020 remarks. Don't you? I am still waiting.

Second, when I added the following sentence to the article: "Futhermore, PDIU and far-right nationalists ... claimed in various occassions that "Greece has committed a genocide against 100.000 Cham Albanians"" and this addition was met with strong reactions by Ktrimi991, I believed I must have done something wrong here and that my addition was merely my imagination, a false impression, or something like that. Hence why I hasted to remove this information from the article and clarify that the banner was only seen at the 2016 soccer match. But checking again today the WP:RS, I notice how the banner in question is clearly seen at the PDIU's June 2020 Chameria gatherings as well. As much as I would like to trust editorial opinions, it is the WP:RS that matters here. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 15:54, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

I see that Ktrimi has done some more changes to the said text in meantime. I am fine with these changes. However, info about the nationalist claims during the PDIU's 2020 June gatherings where there was a genocide of 100.000 victims shouldn't be ignored. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:36, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

The (low-quality) ToVima article contains a relevant pic, so it is fine. The claim about 100000 victims was never an issue. The claims that the Cham issue is being politically used and that Idrizi's stance on the census is aimed at damaging the Greek minority's rights were the problem, but they have now been dealt with. I do not see any other issue rn. Ktrimi991 (talk) 19:47, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Oh, absolutely there is. The statements. They are gonna be restored back into the article if no adequate answers were provided regarding them. PDIU's June 2020 gatherings wasn't just about banners. There were speeches as well, and the head of the party made some statements which strangely enough, you appear too unwilling to have them covered in Wikipedia. I wonder why, and sure it is not because ToVima is a low quality source, but because this is the reality we are facing and which several Greek newspapers are confirming: Indrizi's June 2020 statements on Greek self-determination, or the Tirana mayor's irredendist monument in 2017 build with stones from "occupied Albanian territories" such as Filiates a town of Thesprotia, Greece: [4], or we can go as far as to mention about the Republic of Chameria which the nationalists founded and had even a "President", (yes, Festim Lato which you know very well since our last time in Wikipedia about his assassination), who in 2019 got in to the headlines for the printing of Cham Republic Passports and was photographed with the banners of the Chameria Liberation Army? [5] So lets not get to this point of downplaying anything the nationalists do and just stick with what WP:RS say on the matter. It is not that the RS is low-quality, is it that they report on low-quality acts by nationalists, which even I myself am having trouble believing that they happen in modern day Europe. You are right to find nothing "neutral" in all this, but it is not supposed to be a condition. Had this been the case, then 70% of Wikipedia's content would have been erased just for citing opinionated or biased reliable sources. Ridiculous!

Another issue which I feel obliged to mention here is how today's nationalism in the Balkans doesn't get the proper coverage by third party bibliography as it should have had. This is a problem for editors who are following the rise of nationalism in the region, but have to rely on daily newspapers in their disposal for covering the newest developments in the region. Most of the bibliography is old as far as I am aware, as it covers much older periods which are no longer valid and are not reflective of today's populist, nationalist and geopolitical trends in the region. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:25, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

User:Maleschreiber again now reverted (see: [6]) the inclusion of verified information about nationalist political gatherings without providing valid arguments for their action! In the edit summary, Maleschreiber used flawed arguments to explain their revert.

1) Maleschreiber argues that that they reverted the WP:RS about a far-right politician's statements, arguing that ToVima, (a Greek newspaper which is one of the country's most circulated papers) as being "midly nationalist", a claim which is contradicted by the fact that ToVima is well-known for its anti-nationalist and anti-Golden Dawn sentiment.

2) Maleschreiber's sudden sensitivity against ToVima is also hypocritical because ToVima is already present in the article, in other sections, which Maleschreiber have never raised objections before!

3) Maleschreiber, in the Edit Summary claims that they reverted because "The politician's statement on the census has been described in the talkpage." But in the Talk page here, everyone can see that they pointed to an old January 2020 statement made in a TV interview, not the new statements made in June 2020 in a outdoor political gathering which the discussion in question (and the source, ToVima) is about.

4) Maleschreiber also argues that the politician's June statement on the census has been "described", pointing out to the old statement of January, but failed to provide me any WP:RS verifying that the January and June statements are even the same. Comparing the two WP:RS, it is clear that the Janurary statement refers to residential conditions for one's participation in the Census, while the June statement refers to ethnical/idendity conditions for one's participation in the Census. There is no evidence that the old comments and the new ones are one and the same. Contrary. They are two completely different comments made in different times and locations, for which Maleschreiber failed to provide any WP:RS confirming the relation between the two comments. I asked for sources, but the editor is failing to cite sources.

This attidude of Maleschreiber is WP:DISRUPTIVE. If this continues, then I may have no other option but to ask for intervention. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:10, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

SR, you've argued for your case, some editors have replied and then everybody moved on because you can't put forward in any way, shape or form, the idea that in an article about Albanian nationalism, there's going to be in wikivoice the interpretation of the statements of an Albanian politician by a Greek newspaper that has been described as centrist and mildly nationalist.--Maleschreiber (talk) 14:50, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Added Ant1 which is one of the largest news agencies in the region for more than 30 years and offices in multiple countries and million of viewers. Got any issues about 1 RS? Fine. I added THREE of them. If you for some reason ever believe Ant1 or the others are dubious, better ask the Reliable Sources Noticeboard. This is what most editors (unlike you) do. My job here is done. Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 14:57, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

That Idrizi is attacking the minority's rights is the very definition of the WP:POV. No matter how many newspapers you add to the list of your sources. Shpetim Idrizi and Erion Veliaj are living public figures. Claims about them should be written carefully based on very reliable sources. And no, Veliaj never used the term "occupied territory" when referring to Filiates. Finally, this article is focused on Alb nationalism in Albania in general; it thus does not concern every claim you dig in sources that do not have any sort of peer review or oversight by people with relevant academic background. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:21, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

In addition to what I said in my post above. The Ant1 article is even worse. A pure piece of nationalistic propaganda. It starts with the usual tactic of linking Alb politics with Turkey, and then goes on with various ways to discredit Greece's neighbours. One very meaningful part is the one where it describes Idrizi's stance on the cemeteries's issue as an "attack" rather than Idrizi's opinion. You keep this up and I will file a report at AE, including one diff where you do not want a source merely because it is Albanian and another diff where you say sth about "Cham traumas". Those diffs will serve for context to your usage of such sources to make strong and, at least in Veliaj's case, weird claims. Ktrimi991 (talk) 15:36, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, look who's edit-warring after saying a few days ago this is my last revert here. If you are thinking of using these tricks to max out 3RR, it is you who will end up at AE. Khirurg (talk) 18:00, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@Ktrimi991: "A pure piece of nationalistic propaganda. It starts with the usual tactic of linking Alb politics with Turkey, and then goes on with various ways to discredit Greece's neighbours." Really? Are these merely your personal conclusions or is it the card you would like to play everytime you do not agree with a source's POV? Just in case you were unaware of Albania's close relations with Turkey, the RS I can provide are quite alarming and contradict your claims. NOTE: None of them are Greek!

• MEPs Raise Concerns Over Turkish Influence in Albania [7]
• UN Concerned About Albanian Deportations of Turkish ‘Gulenists’[8]
• Schools a New Tool of Turkish Influence in Albania [9]
• Albania Must Choose Between the EU and Turkey [10]
• Rama’s mysterious meetings with Turkish President Erdogan [11]
• Central and East European Politics: From Communism to Democracy [12]
• Ankara's Rising Balkan Influence Rattles Allies [13]
• Turkey playing on the card of Islam in Albania? [14]
• From myth to reality: How to understand Turkey’s role in the Western Balkans [15]
• Turkey’s Global Soft-Power Push Is Built on Mosques [16]
• City Officials Deflect Questions About Turkish Memorial in Albania's Capital [17]
• Dutch Secret Service: IS May Regroup in Turkey [18]
• Turkey's Foreign Policy in an Age of Urcentainty [19]
• Turkey: expansion and leadership. The Balkans [20]
• PM Rama: I Always Admired Turkish President Erdoğan [21]

Note that these sources are only about a tiny fraction of the total sources stored/bookmarked in my PC about the close relationship between Turkey and Albania. You can not dismiss the Greek WP:RS, which are sceptical of what is going on in Albania, as mere "Greek propaganda", when everyone (from EU to Americans, from Russians to Arabs) has noticed the unusually very close ties between the countries and their leaders, which IMO extends beyond the standard diplomatic norms, such as Erdogan's invitation of Rama to his daughter's marriage, to the unofficial visits in Erdogan's resort mansion and from their cooperation on regional matters, to the claims of journalist Cubra Par that Turkish officials were behind Rama's cancellation of the EEZ agreement with neighboring Greece. A quite worrisome situation, indeed. In the words of Spanish journalist Luis Illanas García: "Edi Rama, as we have seen, is one of President Erdogan's men in the region". As for the rest of your comment? I see no point in answering since it is not about content improvement at all, is all about hearing your WP:POV, WP:OR and WP:IDONTLIKEIT. You have repeatedly failed to provide any sources confirming your original claims, while I have provided more than enough sources confirming the information in question. Also you have repeatedly questioned the reliability of the sources I have provided, yet you are very reluctant to follow my advice and take the matter to the WP:RSN. It is your WP:OR and WP:POV vs the WP:RS and this is quite problematic. You wanna report me? Sure. Feel free to fill a report but if others realize the same as I did, then it might BACKFIRE at you. Your edit warring and lack of sources to back your positions and views here, are hard to miss. I will ask: can you provide any sources to support your statements and views? What sources do you have that Albania and Turkey aren't very close to each other? Where did you find that Ant1 isn't a reliable website? Did you ask RSN about Ant1 or is it merely your personal opinion? What sources do you have that Indrizi didn't make these statements in June 2020? Do you even have any WP:RS at all? It is tiring to ask the same question over over, but you have made some statements which I am unable to WP:VERIFY myself, so your cooperation with me will be appreciated. Because at the end, what matters is the WP:RS, not what we editors would like to think or claim. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:11, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

The reliability of a source depends on the context. Albania and Turkey are allies and have close cooperation in such areas as economy, education and defence. That, however, does not make the Cham issue or Albania-Greece relations part of greater Turkish conspiracy. You are now going down the OR road. Indeed, an AE report is a good possibility if you try using such sources again. There is another version of what Idrizi said on June 27. One version where he does not "attack" the Greek minority's "right for self-determination", but instead says that the two ethnic groups should live in peace together, and that politicians are opening conflicts to their own political benefit [22]. He there does not say that the Greek minority should not have the right to feel Greek. If you still think that the content should be added, feel free to seek other formats of dispute resolution. If I do not respond, that is because you are bringing nothing new to the discussion. Ktrimi991 (talk) 20:34, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

If you want sources on Turkey's use of the Cham issue, then I can gladly provide you them. However it amuses me how you are focusing too much on Turkey during this ENTIRE discussion and in spite of me not adding anything about Turkey to the article. Given that the vast majority of the sources already cited in the article, contain extra information not used in the article at all, it is amusing how you are too exclusive about Greek sources just for the fact that they are mentioning something about Turkey in them, even if this isn't relevant to the article. A RS doesn't have to be 100% relevant to the article just to be allowed any use in it. This approach goes against Wikipedia's rules and you will have to explain this to the admins and volunteers in case we take it to a dispute resolution.

The Albanian RS you provided me does not exclude whatever info Greek sources may tell us about what that politician, Indrizi, has said. Unless you got a camera recording his entire speech the Albanian RS you provided by no means confirms that this is all what he said about Greeks in he gathering, from start to end. The RS also is omitting Mesila Doda's remarks against Greek people. Using your logic here against you, I would argue that the absence of her remarks from the Albanian source also means she never made these remakrs in the first place! That's quite a strange logic you have got here. This logic you have used here is only exposing your flawled arguments, not making your position stronger. I would like more input by other editors on the matter. :-) --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually, even if the sources were RS, that would not suffice on its own. This article is focused on nationalism in general, rather than a statement made here or there by a political party that has seen its support decline. And a position taken by Idrizi is not automatically nationalism. A deep analysis, preferably in an academic work, is needed in such cases rather than just newspapers writing about a political gathering. Thus, reliability itself is not the only issue. Anyways, try other dispute resolution formats if you feel that is the way to go. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:35, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Interesting. Let me correct you however: This article is focused on nationalism in general, rather than a statement made here or there by a nationalist political party. Please would you explain 1) why have you blocked inclusion of information about an Albanian nationalist party's positions in the article about Albanian nationalism? Also 2) under which criteria have you determined that a racist position taken by Idrizi against people of certain ethnicities does not constitute a form nationalism? And 3) what do you mean about the sentence "decline in popular support"? Are you implying that the views/the statements the nationalists who at certain points in the history of Albania gained seats the Albanian Parliament(!) and even became a minor partner in the Socialist-led Albanian Government(!) do no meet the criteria for WP:NOTABILITY??? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 08:52, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

FYI, Idrizi's speech at the gathering [23]. Find someone who speaks Albanian, and ask them to translate it for you. After that, tell me where does Idrizi say what you claim that he said; I can not find it. Ktrimi991 (talk) 09:22, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

WHAT???? I don't have to find someone who speaks Albanian, I understand very well what it is said in the Albanian source you have given to me, however the Greek sources report on things the Albanian source is either omitting out, or lacking and this is where the problem lies.

The Greek sources reported:

If there is one thing that really stood out in a multitude of events that could belong to the realm of graphic art, it is the inflammatory rhetoric of Septim Idrizi, the leader of the Cham party who previously participated in the ruling coalition led by Edi Rama.

This time, Idrizi did not limit himself to the "demands of the Chams" for the international recognition of the "genocide", return of property, erection of a monument and operation of a cemetery in Greece, but he went on against the Greek minority in Albania, especially on the issue of population Census based on the grounds of free self-determination.

He even warned that in the coming years he will undertake an international campaign to cancel such a Census.

He also criticized the operation of the Greek military cemeteries, claiming that the aim is "to delimit the Northern Epirus, which is located north of Chameria".

My opinion is that the sensitive articles such as this must be inclusive (and thus use not only Albanian but also Greek sources on the matter; the Albanian sources report only things that interest the Albanian audience, not the Greek audience. And likewise, the Greek sources report things that interest Greek audience and which are omitted from the Albanian sources.) That's why your approach here of pointing out only to Albanian sources and dismissing anything Greek sources report is very disruptive and the Admins won't like this. Everyone will want to know why you are blocking verified information like this, and using so many different arguments in each one of your reply, just to block the source's use instead of simply taking your concerns to the RSN. I feel obliged to warn you: If this is really your goal here, to exclude Greek sources on Indrizi just because of their Greek origin, then this is disturbing, POV and racistic attitude which goes against Wikipedia's rules which in the past has blocked editors who were following a policy of removing any foreign sources based on nationality. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 10:33, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, take it to the admins. Very good idea. The video in the link has Idrizi's entire speech. Everyone can listen to and verify what he said. Ktrimi991 (talk) 10:54, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

 Comment: How disappointing. Ktrimi991's pro-PDIU attitude is clearly exposed here and is the reason he has refused any sources on PDIU's head that do not fit his editorial POV, from being added to the article. The editor is thinking I am dumb as to not know that Idrizi's speech at Qafë Botë isn't the "entire speech" (in Ktrimi's words) made in the 27 June gatherings. Indrizi after all, was present in 3 different locations where gatherings were made: One at a central square at the capital, Tirana, one near a passage at the Albanian-Greek border (Qafë Botë), and one at a Genocide Monument at Konispol. The video in the Albanian source didn't even cover everything! --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 11:11, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

You resorted to aspersions again. If there is another public speech or statement made by Idrizi that day, find a video of it. There should be one, right? Idrizi is a public figure and a living person, so not all of what you find online will be posted on Wikipedia. Only reliable and relevant info will be. And no, I am not "pro-PDIU". I think that it is just another populist political party, and some of its past members lost their public posts because their links with organized crime were revealed. Even among the Chams themselves, probably most of them do not support PDIU. It is said that one of the reasons why PDIU and PBDNJ (the main Greek party) declined was that while on one hand they attacked each other in public statements, on the other hand they started, and continue to have, close political cooperation as part of the opposition coalition. In other words, a bunch of political parties that use ethnicity as a tool to make political and economic gains. In any case, what I think of them in real life does not affect my editing process. Ktrimi991 (talk) 12:09, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Shpëtim Idrizi is a notable politician whose Party has been in power and member of the Albanian ruling government, as part of a coalition under Edi Rama, and he even served as the 3rd Vice President of the Albanian Parliament. His nationalist comments are notorious, gaining widespread attention in the Greek media of all the spectrums: from leftist to centre and rightist media. His comments in June 27 2020 which Ktrimi is trying to prevent from being added to the article, aren't the only ones he has made. A year ago, in June 2019, he honored with his presence in a ceremony, the Italian general Enrico Tellini of fascist Italy, who fought at the Albanian-Greek border in 1922-1923, (Idrizi holds fascists in high regards), expressed irredendist territorial views against neighboring countries, that «"Epirus and the region south of Ioannina is Albanian land"» and that «"the return of Chameria to Albania is only a matter of time"». Another time, he asked that Greece should erect monuments in memory of the Fascists and Nazi collaborators who were killed by the Greek resistance during the Nazi occupation of Greece (this caused ire, as this is something that the other former Axis occupators of Greece, such as Germany, Italy and Bulgaria would never ask). Another time he suggested that «"the Chams will return to Chameria [Thesprotia] and raise there a genocide monument for 2.980 victims"». And many more. But Idrizi isn't the only PDIU figure that holds extreme views. Vice President Mesilla Doda is known for her nationalist remarks and racist views - from asking that Albania declares war on North Macedonia, to her racist remarks against the LGBT community. Something the readers in Wikipedia won't be able to learn exactly due to Ktrimi's evident Pro-PDIU attitude. This is a problem because an editor is letting his personal POV views get in the way of sourced content on sensitive topics from being added to the article, which is lacking information on the partisan/political Albanian nationalism. Both Idrizi and Doda's statements have caused diplomatic incidents between Albania and its neighboring countries with Embassies protesting about them. What is the worse, is that this whole effort of preventing PDIU's views from being covered in the article, is how much it reminds me these pro-Golden Dawn editors who tried to block in the past any attempts by editors to add info about Golden Dawn's nationalist views and criminal activities to Wikipedia. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:27, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi, just commenting here because I foresee a ping here on this issue -- while I have faith that all are capable of reaching a reasonable compromise on this matter, I would like to stay out of this one. Thanks! Cheers, --Calthinus (talk) 16:56, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

No worries, Calthinus. The discussion is over. SR can seek to address her concerns with other dispute resolution formats, such as DRN or RfC. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:36, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Really, Calthinus? Am I missing something here? What makes you believe Ktrimi wants to reach a reasonable compromise with me instead of sticking to his WP:OR and defending the racist political party? Ktrimi wants PDIU and its leader to be portrayed in a less negative light in Wikipedia by denying sources which conflicted with his editorial WP:POV. The problem here is editorial behavior, not content dispute, IMO. As you can see in my previous comments, there is alot more than just the June 2020 nationalist statements to be added to the article (such as the 2014 incident, the 2019 incident, etc) and a single DRN or RfC just for the current content wont quarantee that the editor won't block in the future any content about PDIU from being added to it. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, I didn't read most of this. But generally, yes, I know you two both pretty well, once the mutual accusations stop and/or real life becomes pressing, you generally compromise. Like good editors do. --Calthinus (talk) 20:29, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@SilentResident: We have a clear WP:JDL situation here, similar to the obstuctionism and stonewalling we saw at Albania-Greece relations about a year and a half ago. I recommend RfC, it will deal with the obstuctionism the same way it did at [Albania-Greece relations]]. Khirurg (talk) 04:41, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

The only other time I have tried to add new content to articles in Albania topic area, was the Albania-Greece relations. The same editor was the one who blocked my contributions to that article back then. Now I came back and tried adding content here, and the same editor is now again blocking my contributions here as well. That makes it 2 blocks of contributions in 2 articles in a row. The admins have access to my Contributions list and can see that the only times I tried to edit to Albania topic areas, were met with an uncompromising attitude by Ktrimi. I kept the Diffs on my notebook, and if Ktrimi repeats the mistake for the 3rd time in the future, then AE report is unavoidable. 3 blocks of contributions in 3 articles in a row, quarantees a topic ban as it is a very serious form of disruption. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 08:19, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

SR, I would recommend RFC or AE or any community process you consider important. IMO, if it went to AE, it would probably WP:BOOMERANG because the comments you've made towards Ktrimi are political WP:ASPERSIONs. Personally, I don't like reports because they have an element of asking for measures against editors no matter how one frames their report, and that steers away from the necessity to regulate editing. So, ask for RFC if you feel that it is necessary and follow whatever result the procedure comes up with.--Maleschreiber (talk) 08:29, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

This is not the first time Ktrimi has shown the "Make Edit War -> Show uncompromising attitude in Talk Page -> Make RfC necessary" pattern to discourage any Cham-related content from being added to various articles and this is the exact reason I am raising here my concerns. Sure, you are welcome to believe whatever you want about that editor, but Contributions Log do not lie on the matter: this pattern here isn't new. At the Albania-Greece relations article, the same editor followed the same pattern by edit warring to block Cham-related sourced infromation from being added (again), and when the matter was taken to the talk page, showed an uncompromising attitude and discussion reached an impasse (again). At the end, a RfC was called (again) as he left no other options. Sorry but I do not understand why we have to call a RfC everytime a new content has to be added to the articles, so excuse me, Maleschreiber, if you are finding me exhausted. I will consider calling a RfC again, but a RfC doesn't mean this pattern which was followed in 2 articles, both under AE sanctions, doesn't have to be looked at by the Admins. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 09:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

On Albania-Greece relations you wanted for a whole month to add the term "Northern Epirote", and even the RfC did not give you the right to add it. Yes, open a RfC here, or take it at AE. Ktrimi991 (talk) 11:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

"On Albania-Greece relations you wanted for a whole month to add the term "Northern Epirote", and even the RfC did not give you the right to add it. Yes, open a RfC here, or take it at AE." Really you don't remember what happened at the RfC? That's surprising, given you were one of the main participants in it.

The RfC can be found here: [24]

A quick look at the RfC:

• 1) The RfC had two options. Option #1 and Option #2. The editors were called to vote one of them.
• 2) The term "Northern Epirus" which Ktrimi talks now about, wasn't even mentioned in the RfC.
• 3) Ktrimi opposed the RfC alltogether as "misleading".
• 4) I supported Option #2.
• 5) The majority of the RfC voters supported Option #2 as well.
• 6) Ktrimi kept an uncompromising attitude and proposed a new Option #3 to the RfC that suits his POV.
• 7) Ktrimi failed to get enough support for Option #3.
• 8) User:Rhoark explained why Ktrimi's Option #3 was unsuitable as-is for Wikipedia.
• 9) User:MJL closed the RfC and concluded that "Consensus is clearly in favor of Option #2".
• 10) The content of Option #2 (which Ktrimi opposed so staunchly), was finally added to the article.

Ktrimi has made his choices, which is to keep an uncompromising attidute (once again), and because of this, for me there is little to no point talking here anymore. Only options are either a new RfC (again... sigh) or/and AE. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 12:16, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

I'm not around for a long while only to come back and see this sort of thread reappearing. Going through this @Ktrimi has made valid points. Please no WP:UNDUE.Resnjari (talk) 12:37, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

No matter how "valid" your buddy's point may sound in your ears, Wikipedia is based on rules, not on editorial POV. Any claims Ktrimi made that are not supported by any sources, constitute not only WP:POV but also WP:OR. The present discussion here is saved for use when the right time comes regarding this behavior. A RfC is still an option but there is a likehood that the case escalates into a report, and this will solely depend on whether there will be any futher attempts to WP:CENSOR information from being added to this ARBMAC-protected article in the future, including content that doesnt suit certain editorial POVs. Just there is more WP:VERIFIED content about the nationalist former Vice President of the Albanian Parliament to be added here, and I will try again when I find some free time. (Yes, time is apparently required, given the resistance the new content was met with by editors of certain editorial POV). Good day. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 23:44, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Lack of nuance

The segment about contemporary identity and many other sections lack basic nuance. They take one position and turn it into fact. Case in point, Nitsiakos (2010) who says that Muslims in general in reference to Christians, they claim that the Orthodox identified with the Greeks and the Catholic with the Italians, which is not something grounded in historical reality or lived experience. The article right now exclusively highlights very obscure narratives instead of the predominant ones.--Maleschreiber (talk) 18:33, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

I do not have the time to go through the section in detail, but it was written by @Resnjari:, and they might help address the concerns you raise. Ktrimi991 (talk) 18:40, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

That would be helpful. Besides Resnjari, I think @Calthinus and Alexikoua: have some experience on the matter, no? --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 19:34, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

A slight rephrase might be appropriate, however, there 'is' a certain connection between those beliefs vs ethnic identities. Dragostinova also states that northern Albanian societies: would tend to label all southerners of Orthodox religion ( this would include the Aromanians ) as potentially “ unfaithful because of prevalent conspiracy theories in which the identification with Greek expansionist plans would make them potential trators.Alexikoua (talk) 19:49, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

It is also "certain" that anyone who has spent time in Greece (hi) can tell you that West Thrace's Muslim minority is frequently referred to as simply "Turk" or some variants thereof, in unofficial contexts. We don't say this on a hopefully respectable encyclopedia (in addition Nitsiakos' research on this point was..... talking to people in the street? Dont even get me started on the inherent sampling issues....). Why? Because we are above ethno-national "loyalty" innuendo and sectarian bigotries are not reliable sources. The reality with all its nuance is that people of all faiths in Albania contributed to building the nation, the Orthodox and specifically the Orthodox of southern border regions (i.e. not Myzeqe or Shpat) played a disproportionate role in spreading Albanianism due mainly to their early literacy, and the fact of the matter is that most people in Albania are loyal to Albania. There are some Albanians who feel Greek sure, there are many members of the Greek minority who are sincerely loyal to Albania, shocker there are also people who identify as both without any conflict at all. And why are the Orthodox singled out? (I don't even need to comment on the imaginative idea that Catholics are somehow loyal to Italy). There are bigots who accuse Muslims of being allied to Turkey, or the LGBT community of being loyal to the West as opposed to "traditional" values. Where this belongs is not a page about nationalism, but one about sectarian bigotry. Remove it I say. --Calthinus (talk) 20:50, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

IMO, this doesn't belong to nationalism or even sectarian bigotry but to racism. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 20:58, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Well I'm all for highlighting all of it and pressing delete. You down?--Calthinus (talk) 21:01, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes, in this light, absolutely supporting deletion. Whatever perceptions there may be between groups, they are terribly flawed and dangerously bordering racism and need to be removed from Wikipedia. --- ❖ SilentResident ❖ ^{(talk ✉ | contribs ✎)} 21:09, 3 July 2020 (UTC)

Yes i wrote the section of identity and Albanian religious community perceptions of each other which were discussed in the context of nationalism. I don't see why that should not be mentioned as those views exist at this point in time. For example Christian Albanians overall are not comfortable with Kosovo-Albania unification, due to Muslim Albanians and their numbers, as per RS sources etc. Anyway on contesting this section i need to see some arguments as to why things of the sort should not be mentioned. I don't want to recycle the mantra that all people who speak Albanian hold near uniform ideas about what is called "Albanianism", bla, bla, bla when that is not the case.Resnjari (talk) 12:35, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think that these perceptions exist though as ideas held by a community. There's a difference between an idea existing among some people and an idea existing as a general belief. I agree with the fact that there is no uniform political "Albanianism", which is a concept bound to change as political goals and the class subjects which express them have conflicting interests. (Good to see you back man!)--Maleschreiber (talk) 13:08, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah agree --- just because a few sources found some Christian Albanians who say X does not say anything about representativeness, and accusing Muslim Albanians of thinking Catholics are somehow connected to Italy is not a good way of showing the diversity of opinions. Of course there are many internal divisions on the Kosovo issue -- left-wingers have some apprehension since Kosovars tend to be more right-wing, atheists have apprehension toward Kosovars increasing not only the number of observant Muslims but also the number of observant Catholics, there is Gheg/Tosk, there is the Socialists possibly losing their dominance, there are people who prioritize international cooperation more, there are some people who are just devil's advocates; we don't need to go into all of this, though we could on a page specifically about the Kosovo+Albanian unification proposal. (Welcome back dude!)--Calthinus (talk) 18:56, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 3 October 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 14:33, 10 October 2021 (UTC)

---

Albanian nationalism (Albania) → Albanian nationalism in Albania – Consistent with similar articles like German nationalism in Austria. Super Ψ Dro 09:23, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Either Albanian nationalism varies here from, say, Albanian nationalism in Kosovo, or it doesn't. If it does, a disambiguating phrase is not "strong" enough to emphasise the difference. If it doesn't, there's no need for separate articles. 85.67.32.244 (talk) 10:08, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support per proposal, 85.67.32.244 and WP:NATURAL. If possible these three RMs should be combined. Havelock Jones (talk) 17:12, 3 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support standard title, more natural like we use Civil parishes in West Yorkshire not Civil parish (West Yorkshire) though that's not comparable its an example. Crouch, Swale (talk) 08:17, 4 October 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:24, 6 October 2021 (UTC)
• Merge with Albanian nationalism. There is quite a lot of overlap between the articles, not sure we need both. As far as I know, this is the only case where a country has a separate article for its own nationalism. There is no article for French nationalism in France for example. Vpab15 (talk) 15:29, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

• After checking a bit more, the articles do look almost a copy of each other. Not sure if this started as a WP:POVFORK, but the fork is unjustified. Vpab15 (talk) 15:36, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.