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Archive 1

Afro House speedy deletion, contest & discussion

Hi @Solidest , RE: Talk:Styles of house music

"...I noticed that you have nominated Afro House for WP:SPEEDY deletion and your reasoning WP:G6. As well as de-linked it here Styles of house music#A , as per your edit summary ("MOS:GENRECAPS") https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Styles_of_house_music&action=history.

As per MOS:5LETTER the genre is predominantly spelled as such, they are clearly two seperate words, meaning they are both the first and last words of the title(s). Which warrants for two seperate words,capitalization(s).

There is also another page in the same category Hard NRG spelled in the same or similiar manner, without any issues.

Previously, you accused me of "posting false sources" @Afro Tech

ToosieJoosie (talk) 12:46, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

@ToosieJoosie: Please notice that I am nominating to quickly deletion Afro house, and not Afro House. WP:G6 is a standard procedure to make room for renaming an article. I've written to you before that unless there is absolute consistency in sources to stylize the genre in specific form (this is mostly a case for German terms, which are always capitalized), standard capitalization rules must be applied on Wikipedia. And I don't understand why you continue to see this rule as something irrelevant and rail against it. Genres are a category of work, not titles of individual works (this specifically means the titles of compositions, songs, operas and so on), so MOS:5LETTER does not apply to genres, nor does this entire guidelines page. While MOS:GENRECAPS focuses specifically on musical genres and specifies not to capitalize genre names, with the exception of proper names. "house" is not a proper name and it should not be capitalized, nor is "tech", so the same practice must be applied to Afro Tech. Hard NRG is capitalized because NRG is an abbreviation for energy (wikt:NRG), which in English and on Wikipedia is typically capitalized - MOS:CAPSACRS, but you could probably open a discussion to rename it, reasoning that the subsection of the rule about musical genres has no exception to capitalization of acronyms (which will likely result in the rule to be supplemented).
And I also don't understand how "posting false sources" situation is relevant here - the problem where to a statement about the year of emergence of Afro Tech or that "Afro Tech is the union of Afro houses" you attach a source in which Afro tech is not mentioned at all. This is what I called adding false sources and what you reverted when I've fixed it, and such incorrect use of sources is still in the article.
And please stop duplicating the same discussion on the discussion pages of different articles. I'm not going to duplicate my answer on every page. Solidest (talk) 13:23, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your response.There is a consistency of the spelling in at least 80% of sources if not more as per Afro House#References , as well as other sources,online etc. in addition as per MOS:GENRECAPS "House" is a proper name as it's the name and combination of the seperate, genre House music.Where "House" as a music genre in English and Wikipedia is also capitalized.I have never ever stipulated seeing any rule as irrelevant, nor 'railed against' anything for the reason you have stipulated. Simply and merely because of the listed and warranted, reasonings, above.
In one sentence you are referring to the year and then grammar , too - I am still confused as into what you attributed the "false sources", to. If you have time to read or go through the sources, I reassure that each source either highlights or is relevant to the content and/or gives information pertaining to the content that may be seen as controversial or the reader wouldn't perhaps have known, without the source.
Please forgive me, if I am confused or ignorant, as well as "still sensitive" due to our initial and previous ingteraction, so for clarity purposes what you're actually doing is assisting by deleting the non-existent Afro house before 'wikidata'ing' Afro House so that it doesn't appear as if there's duplicate pages or you've requested a 'speedy move deletion' due to what you stipulated MOS:GENRECAPS from 'Afro House' to 'Afro house'?
I will post a re-direct, link to Styles of house music#A as the final, response there now, for mapping purposes. ToosieJoosie (talk) 13:47, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
80% is your estimated view of a select set of sources. I do, however, see that in almost every source where the title is capitalised as "Afro House", there's also a standard spelling "Afro house" in the body of the articles - that's a big signal that the standard wiki rules should be applied here. Apparently, the capitalisation in such sources is not made to be an indicator of distinctive spelling from other genres, but is simply a stylisation of the titles of publications at specific media outlets, where each word (or every genre in the whole text in some cases) is capitalised. This is not something that should be transferred to wikipedia, moreover, we do not even list such cases of different capitalisation individually in the premise.
Genres are not proper nouns. House is not a proper noun (although it is derived from the proper name). Literally any reliable source and printed source will confirm this. If you don't believe me, or if you want this to be an exception, you can ask about spelling on Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language.
> I am still confused as to what you attribute the "false sources" to. – I was responding to you on the phrase "You previously accused me of "posting false sources". @Afro Tech ", which I don't understand why you bring it up here and I've explained for the 5th time what I meant by that. If my explanation still seems confusing to you, it is unlikely that I have anything else to offer. But the main point - what does that have to do with Afro house article and why do you keep bringing the previous controversy here as well? Please stop.
My action regarding this article is simply the procedure of renaming it to "Afro house" according to MOS:GENRECAPS and yes, also removing duplicated titles in some degree. When an editor with the relevant permissions does this, there will be no problem with the link on the Styles of house music page, while your article will remain untouched. Solidest (talk) 14:32, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your prompt response.I should've worded it differently at least 80% predominantly, "Afro House" across ,sources online (search engines) and elsewhere (even in the body of articles, listed /titled categories on major as well as globally leading audio streaming platforms,labels, video vlogs , music purchase sites, and even the world's leading DJ Award ceremony (MOS:HEADCAPS) -This is the way it's predominantly spelled and typed "..but leave the rest lower case except for proper names and other items that would ordinarily be capitalized in running text". In fact there is even an "Afrohouse' stylization too, however it occurs way less , than the predominant "Afro House", version- hence why I didn't even mention it in the article, if I am not mistaken I think, I only came across 1 source, stylizing it like that. Here we are specifically discussing/debating about the specific title of the page not the general stylization for example in the body of articles/ source(s) such as Afro Tech as it predominantly even occurs like that in running text ( even though I think for both cases the titles are more important and the display in the body of the article could be more 'bendable'), even in this article - I also further incorporated the stylizations or variations in the lead sugbenre description paragraph to highlight what you're referring to as 'in the body of articles of variations'. I myself ,printed and linked Afro Tech as afro tech as it was in the middle of a sentence and this article isn't highlighting or about that subgenre or specific namespace and another editor thereafter, link changed it to "Afro Tech"
Here are a few examples;
When other genres of house such as 'Deep house' are searched the predominant , spelling display is "Deep house" and perhaps that's why that's the case for "those"/that.
There is also obviously a pattern of this kind of spelling for specifially these subgenres (Afro Tech & Afro House) as they originate from the exact same place and also during similar /same time periods in, history and thus are spelled predominantly in this manner,especially as/in title displays in this manner, by the masses.
For all these reasons and just like Hard NRG I believe specifically the page's title should please remain as is / the action of renaming request reconsidered and reverted. ToosieJoosie (talk) 15:25, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
There are no rules on wikipedia that will prescribe how often capitalization is used for terms and descide something by that. It's either a proper name or it's not. Capitalization of letters probably doesn't apply to the rule of how often terms are used at all - it usually only applies to whether it's written as a conjunction, with a space or a hyphen, or via other spelling variants of letter usage - then we look at which variant predominates. But capitalization in relation to genres seems to always be ignored, unless it's a borrowed foreign word, which is always capitalized, as in the case of German. In some cases, there may be different interpretations when trying to determine whether a foreign word is a proper name (because it comes from a geographical name or ethnic group and that is also why Afro is capitalized in English). But in the case of "house" there is no such situation at all, here it is clearly a common noun. We are arguing precisely about the general approach, since I don't know of any genre in English that is a legitimate exception to the rule.
Afrohouse and Afro-house on the contrary are distinct types of spelling and it will be right to mention them with sources as alternatives to the name. By the way, from my personal experience, I on the contrary for the last years mostly meet sources with the standard Afro house spelling, but it does not affect anything and therefore there is no point in even listing these links. Solidest (talk) 16:54, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
By the way, I also plan to nominate Afro Tech to be renamed through WP:REQMOVE procedure (so that you don't think it's my personal whim) so that others will also confirm that it's important to follow the wiki's guidelines. Solidest (talk) 17:11, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
I caught wind of this dispute and what it was about, but didn't see anything about who was arguing what, so as an unbiased third party, I went through every source listed on the article and counted how many times 'house' was capitalized after 'Afro'. It was pretty much even. By my count:
  • Afro House 13
  • Afro house 14
  • Afro-House 2
  • Afro-house 4
  • Afrohouse 2
I ignored article titles and anything else that seemed like title case. 'House' is uncapitalized in almost all other cases when talking about the genre, especially without modifiers. In a couple of cases, 'Afro' was uncapitalized; I counted those in the above list, only focussing on 'house'. Several sources used more than one version. HerrWaus (talk) 20:38, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

I declined a request for third opinion ([1]) because more than two editors are involved in the debate. You may try other methods of dispute resolution, such as Wikipedia:Requests for comment. Borsoka (talk) 02:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC)

List of artists

@ToosieJoosie: Per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Music#Lists we don't use artists' lists in the genre articles. Such lists are usually blanked out by editors if there are not sufficient for an individual list article. By the way, I would recommend you to start new articles via Wikipedia:Articles for creation, where you'd get help fixing many of the minor nuances that are present in this article. Solidest (talk) 13:40, 16 November 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for suggestions, as per my knowledge if I am not mistaken blanking relevant content is seen as WP:VAND, so do you perhaps mean, they would simply 'revert-edit' by changing the format? In this case, may I copyedit it to a 'regular' list? ToosieJoosie (talk) 13:50, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Removing irrelevant information that doesn't fit wiki guidelines is not vandalism and is correct. Neither is removing original research (information not taken from sources), or information taken from non-reliable sources is also not a vandalism. Some editors are very strict in their approach to sources, and do clean up practices of entire articles if the sources don't look reliable enough. You're likely to encounter this too, since not all source in this article look reliable enough as the guidelines require. To see a more drastic approach, you can check out Talk:Vaporwave/Archive 1#Proposed merge of Future funk into Vaporwave where several dozen sources were deemed not reliable enough and even though half of the editors thought they were acceptable, the article was still completely cleaned up and deleted. This is just in case, so that if anything, you'll be prepared for it in advance (as I don't do such cleanups, but more often contest them on the contrary).
If by regular list you mean an individual list article, they too have WP:LISTN relevancy criteria. Probably the current list has not enough sourced entries for a separate article (every item in the distinct list should have a source). Solidest (talk) 14:51, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
Thank you for your assistance and suggestions. Previous editors, didn't mention any of this nor action what you are describing, I am certain there are also a plethora of other articles both in the genre and other categories with what could be described as way worse or 'more pressing issues', I didn't add any more sources as I was avoiding WP:CITEKILL., I will add more now and attempt to further improve the article to the best of my ability.
. ToosieJoosie (talk) 15:31, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
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