Talk:Afghan (ethnonym)

gandhara

I am not versed in the history or languages, but it seems to me credible that if Gandhara and Kandahar/Arghandab can be synonymous, then Afghan must be derived from the same root. It might be interesting to search for the common origin in Gandhara/Kandahar/Arghandab and see if this can also be matched to Afghan... Gandhara seems to have been a large and influential nation/empire encompassing (much of?) the region which we now know as Afghanistan, as well as much of Pakistan ... any info on this possibility? ... I notice the discussion page of Afghanistan mentions this as accepted historical fact, and says that the Gandhara name predates Alexander ... a competing theory of name origin ... perhaps in fact Alexander's name comes from the Afghan's or was influential in his success with them (they called him 'Iskandar') ... -- 60.240.129.13 (talk) 12:37, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Other prominent words and terms associated with the area, which are dominated by the gutteral 'ghan'/'khan' sound could be listed here, as it seems likely there is some common origin ... Ganges (the river, was part of the land of Kuru after whose Queen Gandhara is said to have been named ..) ... Khan (the term for ruler or lord in the region) .. Alexander/Iskandar the great leader said to originate in Macedonia but who succeeded in military conquest of the entire region now inhabited by Pushtan folks .. Afghan .. Gandhara .. Kandahar .. Arghandab ... more? i'm not sure on the pronunciation, but Chandragupta Maurya (also known as Sandrokyptos, Sandrokottos and said to have taken Alexander's empire from him .. are they sure this is not the same guy??) seems another name likely to have had great influence in the region at about the time of many of those already mentioned here by me ... please list what occurs to you, so that others can research any possible links (even if it turns out not to be likely to be linked to 'Afghan', there may be other commonalities which are interesting in some cases .. -- 60.240.129.13 (talk) 12:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Upa-gana

Upa-Gana (not Upa-ghana) literally means sub-tribe (upa- = deputy-, sub-) and (-gana =-tribe) thus upa-gana may mean subdividion of a tribe i.e a minor tribe. Upa-ganah is plural and may mean many minor tribes orv sub-divided tribes. Thus, it may mean land of numerous minor tribes Does it make sense?. But I dont think Upa-ghana or Upaganah conveying the sense of 'United' or Allied is attested anywhere in Hindi, Persian or Sanskrit. Can somebody come forward and explain?

-Stan means land of course.

Besides Ashvakan, another etymology often stated by some writers is Ashva-stan i.e land of horse (Ashva=horse, stan=land).

Kls

strange expression

"the Muslim, Prophet Muhammad" sounds odd to me.

Do not get jackass

plz people do not get jackass by some people who try to spread lies here. They have to understand that Wikipedia is not a game forum it is a knowledge portal for the humanized and civilizied folks of the world!! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tajik-Professor (talk • contribs) 16:39, 14 May 2007 (UTC).

Yussufzai as term has nothing to do here! Yussuf is an arabic word and means Joseph and zai is mongolic for son. Both terms are not related with the greater Ashvakas of the Kambujayes group. Pashtuns do also not relfect those ancient Ashvakas since only a small part of them are their aryanic ancestors while the majority have another origine, mostly of non-iranic origine.--84.59.119.90 (talk) 16:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Zai means "son" in Pashto. No ones ever heard it in mongolic and the majority of them are genetically form an iranic base also quiet related to other iranic ethnic linguistacaly and genetically especially the mountainous triba zones Pashtunfacts (talk) 16:20, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

Pashto is not only the most important East Iranian language but also the only Avestan language that’s survived. Asban802 (talk) 00:14, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

History of the Mohamedan people

I have reverted the recent edits that were based on Ferishta's (1560-1620) The History of the Rise of the Mahometan Power in India (London, 1829, 4 vols. 8vo). Although Ferishta was certainly a notable scholar of his time and is a good source today, his work does not fit the standard of WP:SOURCE. Claiming that the name Afghan was used at around 600 A.D. and using Ferishta's work (written in the 16th century AD) as a source is not scholastic. Tajik (talk) 16:09, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I think you are getting confused and lets not remove things that you may not agree with. What is wrong with Ferishta's work?--Mullaji (talk) 07:12, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not getting confused, but you are ignoring the discussion and pushing for POV (therefore, I have asked an admin for help). Ferishta is NOT a scientific source that would fit the WP:SOURCE requirements. Ferishta lived in the 16th century in India and he only collected regional legends. His work cannot be accepted as a scientific work of modern scholarship. That's why he is ignored in this case by mainstream scholars. Besides that, I had NOT removed your quote, but simply MOVED it to the correct section. There is no need to insert such a long text which is nothing else but a summary of a LOCAL LEGEND written by a MEDIEVAL historian in India in the 16th century. I frankly ask you to revert your latest revert. Tajik (talk) 07:18, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Till the dispute is solved with the help of admins, the article will be tagged. Claiming that "Afghans are descendants of ancient Egyptian Pharaos" and citing an unreliable medieval scholar as a source, is just ridiculous. Tajik (talk) 07:21, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

You are entitled to your opinions. Are you saying we can't depend on contemporary historians?--Mullaji (talk) 07:33, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

A man who died in 1620 is a contemporary historian? His works do not meet the requirements set forth by WP:RS. They are not accepted in the academia. --Afghana ^[talk] 07:45, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I was not refering to Ferishta but to any contemporary written work. Ferishta's work is over 400 years old. You have to face it, the much details about the Afghan race connecting to todays Pashtuns in Ferishta's work is very hard to find else where. Is there any flaws? By allowing partial of Ferishta's work on display (as I put it in the quotation) in the article, at least that confirms that in the 1600s and onwards, Pashtuns were called Afghans. If you don't agree with Ferishta then you must find a flaw.--Mullaji (talk) 08:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

this article is about the name Afghan, not about medieval legends concerning the origin of the Pashtun. Of course it would be interesting to learn about this book Mutla-ul-Anwar, but it appears nothing is known about it. When citing Ferishta, there is no need to stick to the antiquated 1829 translation, especially when it comes to translation. I am sure Ferishta didn't write "Mohamedan", that's the 19th century British translator, but "Muslim". --dab (𒁳) 07:57, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes and how are people suppose to search further if this information is removed from the article? At least now we can try to find Mutla-ul-Anwar and read it to learn more.--Mullaji (talk) 08:44, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Ferishta does not seem reliable as the definitive source because he refers to stories about earlier Afghans (Pashtuns) of around 1000 years before him. If Al Biruni (who lived in eastern Afghanistan in 11th century) is also cited, it will be great for the article. MassaGetae(talk) 09:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, how about all the other references cited in the article? Are those reliable or not? It seems that they all support Ferishta's claim. But, if that's untrue and they prove to be unreliable then we should remove all of them. I'm sure some Arabs who arrived with Islam into Pashtun land written works about their explorings. Writing books was a major thing in that period, many Muslims were involved. I think many of those Islamic books were destroyed, lost or stolen in wars. We just may get lucky and find a few.--Mullaji (talk) 12:19, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

of course we should quote medieval and Mughal period Muslim historians. But they are to be treated as primary sources, not secondary ones. --dab (𒁳) 12:34, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

This is more useful: In the country of Kābul there are many and various tribes. Its valleys and plains are inhabited by Tūrks, Aimāks, and Arabs. In the city and the greater part of the villages, the population consists of Tājiks.* Many other of the villages and districts are occupied by Pashāis, Parāchis, Tājiks, Berekis, and Afghans. In the hill-country to the west, reside the Hazāras and Nukderis. Among the Hazāra and Nukderi tribes, there are some who speak the Moghul language. In the hill-country to the north-east lies Kaferistān, such as Kattor* and Gebrek. To the south is Afghanistān.

Durrani Empire does not refer to a state but only to Durrani dynasty, which was replaced in 1826 by Barakzai dynasty. The kingdom as a whole beloned to Afghans (Pashtuns), so Afghan Empire is better description. Durrani was not widely recognized, it was recognized as Afghan Kingdom by neighbors and even the West.--Mullaji (talk) 13:10, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Rarely in scholarly literature is this referred to as the "Afghan Empire". Also, the Barakzai tribe which indeed I belong to belongs to the Durrani. Generally the Durrani Empire refers to when the Sadozai ruled. Under the Barakzai, there was no "Empire" simply "Afghanistan", which did not stretch much beyond its modern borders. --Afghana ^[talk] 03:14, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of verifiable content by user Mullaji

Hi User Mullaji
Please do not delete Verifiable content from reliable sources with citations as you have done in your post of 3rd june .
Intothefire (talk) 09:56, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Three straight deletions of verifiable referenced content in one day

In one day there are three deletions by Mullaji and User Massagate of the same referenced content . Here is the record .This is inspite of content restoration by admin SkyWalker.

• Deletion instance 1 by Mullaji of verifiable content on 7th June with citations

(rvv, not verifiable; i've read biruni's work and he mentions rajputs (punjabis). punjabis were all hindus until mahmud of ghazni forced them to convert during times of al-biruni)

• Deletion instance 2 by Mullaji of verifiable content on 7th June with citations

(if they are wrong, misleading and not belonging here sure i can)

• restored by SkyWalker

(Reverted 1 edit by Mullaji; No you are wrong.. (TW)) Next edit →

• Next the same verifiable content is now deleted by User Massagate

(merge section. make quotes shorter)

This is patently Unreasonable .
Intothefire (talk) 08:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Please stop adding lengthy quotes. While citing medieval historians, modern historians are to be treated as secondary sources not primary sources. Also reply to the section below. MassaGetae(talk) 09:32, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

the question is not whether the material is referenced (we assume it is referenced, that goes without saying), but whether it is WP:DUE. Instead of edit-warring, you are supposed to find a compromise on just how much a given source, such as Alberuni, should be duly dwelled upon for the purposes of this article. This isn't a yes-or-no question, but a question of editorial judgement and consensus. --dab (𒁳) 11:29, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Dbachmann your point is well taken about WP:DUE .

• The sources I provided are secondary and not Alberuni
• I am ok with the article carrying a concise import of the quotes I provided , viz that there were Afghan Hindus .This is not a fringe theory , but in fact the main struggles of Ghazni were with the Hindu Shahi Dynasty that ruled East Afghanistan
• I am ok with a concise concensus construct of this information by Massagetae that conveys this

Await the suggested concensus paraphrase .
Cheers
Intothefire (talk) 17:22, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Massagetae and Mullaji'

I just noticed that user Massagetae and banned user Mullaji are also working in conjunction to delete my referenced content from article Pashtun people.????????

Intothefire (talk) 18:18, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

When did I do that? Please don't make up things. MassaGetae(talk) 22:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Al Biruni

Al Biruni writes In the western frontier mountains of India there live various tribes of Afghans and extend to the neighborhood of Indus Valleys. Where does he mention their religion? MassaGetae(talk) 15:00, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Massagetae you may consider reading up the following chapter in Alberunis book .

Alberuni s India .

Chapter :A Summary description of the Eras .

From the para that starts ...The Hindus had kings residing in Kabul .

Page 413 to 417.

Dr Edward C Sachau .

Publisher Rupa and Company .

If I can find an online source I will provide it soon

Incidently Alberuni isent the only source and I can provide many .

My friend this article is somewhat majoratarian and a little diversity based on references will only enrich it .
Intothefire (talk) 17:44, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Going back to where we started here's a quote from ROSE IBBETSON
"Al Beruni no doubt also alludes to them in the passage (loc. Cit .p 199 ) where he says that rebellious savage races , tribes of Hindus , or akin to them inhabit the mountains which form the frontier of India towards the west ." Intothefire (talk) 19:05, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Because Afghans are not mentioned this can be a reference to non-Afghan peoples, eg. the Hindu Shahi, Rajputs or Buddhist Bactrians, who were also possibly living in Kabul and other parts of Afghanistan. This article is about the people who were called Afghans. True, many Afghans (Pashtuns) could have also been Buddhists or Hindus in the 11th century (I for one think some of them were), but a source must be cited though that explicitly mentions Afghans. MassaGetae(talk) 22:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Improve the article allowing inclusion of diversity content

• The use of Alberuni , Ibnbatuta , Farishta , Barani and other muslim historians must not be selective in this article , as it currently is .Lets use one yardstick.And not nitpick rulebook as pretixt with regard to delete oposing views .
• The contradictions in this article and others related to Afghanistan and Pashtun ethnic and religious diversity in the Historical period are appaling .
• Deleting or diluting inherent Buddhist and Hindu periods is so rampant that it has assumed an unmerited sanction to the extent that even evidence can be blasted out as fringe , Pov and OR ,regretfully it appears that even admins perhaps unintentionally contribute this majoratarian flow ..........whereby extention of exclusion makes this article bordering on falsehood .

Intothefire (talk) 06:19, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry, I am not sure I understand what you are saying. What are "inherent Buddhist and Hindu periods"? What "majoratarian flow"? Which "opposing views"? This is the article about the name "Afghan". You seem to want to make it into a full-blown medieval history of the Pashtuns. The article should only discuss points that are directly relevant to the origin and history of the name itself. --dab (𒁳) 07:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree with dab. Also, I say citing more references will be great for the article, but these should explicitly mention the word "Afghan" so that they are relevant for the article. MassaGetae(talk) 07:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Hi Massagetae
Here is the specific mention of the word Afghan in this quote , this should be included . Although the meaning of the other deleted quote o clearly refers to Aghans as well . I am not posting this and seek your concensus , considering it meets your criteria .

Various respected scholars and historian such as Wiley-Blackwell , Rose, Denzil Ibbetson have recorded Al- Baruni’s mention of the Afghans .

“ The most explicit mentioning of the Afghans appears in Al- Baruni’s Tarikh al hind (eleventh century AD) Here it is said that various tribes of Afghans lived in the mountains in the west of India . Al Baruni adds that they were savage people and he describes them as Hindus ., ”

Intothefire (talk) 10:51, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

According to historian Fareshta from 1600s, he explains in details that the Afghans became Muslims since the 7th century so how can you deny that? I mean Fareshta is explaining that Afghans were Muslims since 7th century but Wiley-Blackwell, Rose, Denzil of modern day is saying that Afghans were Hindus. So who is telling the truth? I don't think Al-Biruni said Afghans were Hindus, I like to see the original writings of al-Biruni where he says this.

Thanks Intothefire. Al Biruni mentioned Afghans only once in the book when he wrote Afghans live in the western frontier mountains of India. But the author H.A. Rose believes the following passage is also about Afghans: In the mountains wbicli form the frontier of India towards the west there are tribes of the Hindus, or of people near akin to them — rebellious savage races — which extend as far as the farthermost frontiers of the Hindu race.

However tribes in the mountains of western India will not be necessarily Afghans (Pashtuns) because there were also many non-Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan. But I changed the article. MassaGetae(talk) 10:40, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The author - in this case al-Biruni - is referring to the Suleiman Mountains. In that case, it is highly probable that he was referring to Pashtuns, because he had described them as a "Hindu people" before. The Pashtuns were gradually Islamized in the following centuries, due to Ghaznavid and Ghori advances into India. Tajik (talk) 01:10, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

I reverted unexplained deletions by Hkrclu (talk · contribs). Tajik (talk) 01:27, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

You may wanna check again, I didn't delete anything.--Hkrclu (talk) 05:39, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

I reverted the article because of unexplained deletion of sourced material--Inuit18 (talk) 22:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Intothefire (talk) 14:16, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

The buddhist and hindu passages will be removed due to no hinderance to the actual topic of the usage of the "word" afghan. Having read this wiki page. I will have to remove unecssary information which does not line in with the page form

Pashtunfacts (talk) 11:30, 27 November 2020 (UTC)

List of Referenced content from reliable sources deleted from this article

Intothefire (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

References

Looking at how Pashtun word sounds, I'm getting an impression that it might be derived from a Slavic word [pastuh] or [pustyn]. The former one means a shepherd while the latter means a desert. I'm not a linguist, just shared a personal observation - please don't judge. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.98.155 (talk) 03:59, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Edits

I have removed the reference to Ferishta, as it is factually incorrect, since it states that only people in Afghanistan used Afghan to refer to Pashtuns. Nowhere in the citation is that quoted.

Second, the reference to how the Hazara or Chinese-Afghans view Afghans, does not have any bearing on the historical context of the name and is not derived from any scholarly source, but rather a politicized, ad hominem, in response to socially charged issue in Afghanistan.

Finally, this is actually very sad to see that as an Afghan, we are having our history hijacked on these pages, because we do not have anyone who can come in here correct the blantant lies and misinformation being spread by Tajikistanis and Chinese-Afghans. A message to all true Afghans, please protect your heritage. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afghan25 (talk • contribs) 15:29, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Removed reference to Afghana in origin of the name

The reference to Afghana was removed from the origin of the term Afghan, as the first, the citation does not state that the name Afghan derives from Afghana, but rather discusses the origin of the Afghan people themselves, and second the citation itself states that even that in and of itself is most likely incorrect.

Also, there is already scholarly consensus later on in the article on the derivation and history of the name. Putting it much more before the invention of Afghana. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afghan25 (talk • contribs) 15:54, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Removed reference to British usage of Afghan

There is no proof whatsoever that only since the time of the british was the term Afghan applied to people of the region known as Afghanistan. This is not any cited in any scholarly article or source, and is merely opinion. Furthermore, the intent here is to imply that the name was not used to apply to the peoples of the region prior to that, which the rest of the wikipedia article refutes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afghan25 (talk • contribs) 15:58, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I think that Afghan25 misunderstood the intent of the paragraph, shown below. It was to show the evolution of the term over time, but was not expressed as clearly as it could have been. Since it has been removed, I am reluctant to restore it, even in modified form, without citation to a reliable source.

During the 19th century Anglo-Afghan wars, the British generally referred to all inhabitants of the Pashtun Barakzai empire as "Afghans". In the following decades, the word became gradually applied to all citizens of the kingdom.

Although I can find examples, I have not yet found a source that draws the conclusion. Sources for the second sentence in the paragraph above should be relatively easy to find. Although Maley (cited in the article) reached that conclusion, he really doesn't discuss it. --Bejnar (talk) 21:42, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Removed reference to Afghan lord article

Removed the reference to the afghanlord website article, as it should be afghanWarLord.com. Article is not scholarly or fact based, written by Chinese-Afghan upset because they want to keep their moniker of Hazara rather then be called Afghan. It is an opinionated factless piece which can not be considered a "source" for scholarly debate. It has nothing to do with the origin or history of the word Afghan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Afghan25 (talk • contribs) 16:03, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Khattak dubious quotation

Dear friends, I would like to report that this quotation of the well known poet Khattak:"Pull out your sword and slay any one, that says Pashtun and Afghan are not one! Arabs know this and so do Romans: Afghans are Pashtuns, Pashtuns are Afghans!" is nowhere to be found in Biddulph's translation (as indicated in the note). In fact the page itself is not signaled, and I have many doubts he had ever compared Afghan and Pashtuns as a synonymous in that way. Can someone give some explanations in this regard? Greetings from Italy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.95.26.4 (talk) 08:16, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

@151.95.26.4:

I too have read through the translations and have not been able to find that quote. I'll remove it for now until someones finds the exact quote from the translations. Joelaroche (talk)

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Ethymology

I have a question I saw on the internet that alexander the great has mentioned in several quotes the afghans is it true? AfghansPashtun (talk) 11:40, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

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Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 00:53, 28 August 2021 (UTC)