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We are so lucky these letters survived! OK putting the article on hold, just some questions regarding prose and verifiability. Looking forward to hearing your answers. Mujinga (talk) 14:56, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I know, right? I was hooked from the minute I ran across the letters. I wrote both hers and Primus' article simultaneously so that I could make sure that the cross-overs in their lives had continuity, but weren't duplicated. SusunW (talk) 15:43, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mujinga, I've tried to answer everything, but if we need to have more discussion, just ping me. I really appreciate your help with the article. Other eyes are always important, as they give us clues to our own blindnesses. SusunW (talk) 19:08, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mujinga I think I responded to everything, but I have some queries for you to look at. Just let me know if anything further is needed. Thank you so much for your insights. Truly, it is helpful to have someone who is not familiar with a situation to review it because they can spot gaps the writer didn't even realize existed. I appreciate your help very much. SusunW (talk) 15:06, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's all good now! Congrats on another fine GA, keep 'em coming. Comradery greetings to you and also GRuban and Ipigott :) Mujinga (talk) 15:18, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ref layout is great, no complaints on sources. Spotchecks made on this version:
Congenial and spirited, she enjoyed being liked,[1]
source says she was "tall, spirited" and "thought of herself as well-liked, vitally engaging those around her" - does this mean she "enjoyed being liked"? I'm unsure
While she was definitely not a push-over, she cultivated other people's affection, primarily because it served her own needs, for work, for reduced housing costs, etc. Reading the letters, it is pretty clear that she was proud of the fact that people liked her. As an example, one story Addie relayed was that she was paying less rent than Rebecca's sister because the landlord liked her better. Not exactly sure how to reword it, but possibly "was friendly" works? SusunW (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"she created fictitious family connections with friends" - backed by source
She announced her engagement to Tines in a letter to Primus in December 1865. At that time, Brown was working for various Hartford ladies – Mrs. Couch, Mrs. Doughlass, and Mrs. Swans – sewing garments and hoping to make enough money to get through the winter of 1866.[34]
link goes to p10, but says p93 (maybe that's a login issue). info backed by source, but not the last bit "hoping to make enough money to get through the winter of 1866"
Where the link goes, I have no idea , but having the page number gets you there. As for the job situation, I disagree, page 92 says she was let go from her previous job and that meant she might not have work through the winter. The following page says she is sewing for the three women and "I hope I will get along this winter". SusunW (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
that makes sense, I missed the meaning of "I hope I will get along this winter", p92 makes it clear so if you can add that to the ref I think it will be resolved Mujinga (talk) 07:42, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
An anonymous letter, possibly from Tines, indicates that they had a happy life and children.[44]
source backs claim
Besides Brown's own declarations of love for Primus, the letters also speak frankly of incest and sex outside of marriage,[56] as well as of encounters with other women with whom she had shared a bed.[57]
the source says they "share gossip" about incest and sex oout of wedlock, which i think is worth adding, since "frankly" suggested to me they were talking about their own desires
Interesting. Frankly to me is openly, honestly, i.e. talking about taboo subjects, but I take your point. Added "gossiped openly about topics like incest and sex outside of marriage". Does that work? SusunW (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nevertheless, Brown's letters add dimension to the analysis of nineteenth century same-sex relationships,[7] as she openly wrote of their passion, kisses, and touching of the breasts.[54][66]
and then cut off ties with her family - any reason why? and how does this intersect with the later "The one brother with whom she had kept in touch"?
Apparently she didn't like her step-father, or the fact that her mother remarried. I am not sure how there is a contradiction, as the text says "then cut off ties with her family, except for a brother". Open to suggestions. SusunW (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
ok i've struck the second half, when you say apparently is that reading between the lines or what the source says? if it's the former, that's not necessary to include, if it's the latter then it seems useful information to mention Mujinga (talk) 07:37, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A bit of both. The sources says only "Her father died when she was young, and her mother remarried against Addie's wishes." p 18 I don't see that I can put anything else in given that's all I have. SusunW (talk) 15:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
the paragraph beginning "Brown was described as tall" is currently reading a bit proseline, i'd suggest running some of the sentences together
I'm quite confused. WP:Proseline is directly related to chronology. Since the entire section is a description of her characteristics and none of it has anything to do with time, I am baffled. I wouldn't normally describe a woman, particularly because of negative stereotypical phrases often used to describe them, but in this case, lacking a photo, it seemed a good idea so that the reader had a "feel" for who she was. Feel free to give me specifics or just edit the section. SusunW (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I guess I wasn't clear; what I mean is that it's rather stop start, short sentences, that's why I mentioned proseline.
Current text: Brown was described as tall, and although she exchanged photographs with Primus, none have been found. Congenial and spirited, she was friendly, but was cautious in giving her own affection. She was independent and confident, making pragmatic choices to survive. Open and honest about her feelings, she relayed her emotional turmoil in her letters. She had little patience with irritable people, but was at times a mischief-maker. Lacking close family ties, she created fictitious family connections with friends. The one brother with whom she had kept in touch, broke off contact with her after she was unable to visit him for Thanksgiving because she needed to work. Bright and intelligent, Brown was a good story-teller and a keen observer, bringing life and detail to the events she described in her letters.
I'd suggest something like:
Brown was described as tall, and although she exchanged photographs with Primus, none have been found. She was friendly, but was cautious in giving her own affection; she was independent and confident, making pragmatic choices to survive. She had little patience with irritable people and at times was a mischief-maker. Lacking close family ties, she created fictitious family connections with friends and the one brother with whom she had kept in touch broke off contact with her after she was unable to visit him for Thanksgiving, because she needed to work. Brown was a good story-teller and a keen observer, bringing life and detail to the events she described in her letters; she relayed her emotional turmoil in her letters, being open and honest about her feelings.
ah ok. cousin is clearly wrong so I've struck that, but it wasn't clear to me that Holdridge was Primus' father so perhaps that can be stated earlier Mujinga (talk) 07:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Above I said " Brown was part of the inner circle of the Primus family and had begun an intense friendship with Holdridge and Mehitable's oldest daughter, Rebecca," so I thought it was clear? But, obviously there's a lot of names here, so adding in father is a good reminder. If you think I need to add more, just advise. SusunW (talk) 15:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Originally from Philadelphia, she may have known him from childhood there" suggest "He was originally from Philadelphia, so she may have known him from childhood there" or "since they were both from Philly"
I am often amazed at how different AE and BE are. It's one of the reasons I am always happy to have someone look at an article and "Britishise" it. It's not just words and phrases, but punctuation is often completely different. SusunW (talk) 15:02, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"weighing in on issues like emancipation, civil rights, and political events" maybe some wikilinks could be helpful here? eg Emancipation Proclamation. also on that note would Female slavery in the United States be worth adding somewhere in the article?
I've linked emancipation as you suggested and civil rights to the 14th amendment. Since they weren't feminists, per se, not sure that they were concerned with the plight of women slaves as much as elevation of the entire race. SusunW (talk) 17:28, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"Writing about a novel, Women Friendships by Grace Aguilar, that she had read, Brown analyzed whether their differing social status, age, and education mirrored her own relationship with Primus. " is a bit confusing, suggest something like "Writing about a novel, Women Friendships by Grace Aguilar, that she had read, Brown analyzed whether the characters' differing social status, age, and education mirrored her own relationship with Primus. "
"Primus had saved the correspondence Brown wrote to her, indicating the importance of their relationship.[5] After Primus's death, the letters were acquired in 1934 by the Connecticut Historical Society" - comment: wow amazing that at least some of the letters were saved!!
thanks, I don't think the ref is necessary but it doesn't hurt. It's more just to identify Scroggins otherwise it's just a random name in this context. Mujinga (talk) 07:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
lead (always done last):
"American working-class free Black woman" - this makes me wonder about her slave status - it seems she was born free, so that is worth stating explicitly in the body. also i notice she isn't identified as Black in the body
"Northern Black women" is a bit vague for me, I guess I'd prefer Black women in North America?
And there you have the problem of not citing SKYBLUE. To any American, Northern Black women clearly means not Southern, i.e. not a slave, nor typically someone who had been enslaved and later gained freedom, but rather someone who was born free. Give me a minute to find sources. SusunW (talk) 18:25, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
again an interesting US/Br Eng thing, I don't think anyone from other continents would get this allusion, thanks for the comprehensive footnote! Mujinga (talk) 07:36, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
infobox ok - only point is if Philly is wikilinked here, should it also be in lead (or vice versa)
.jpg){kind=small}
, but having the page number gets you there. As for the job situation, I disagree, page 92 says she was let go from her previous job and that meant she might not have work through the winter. The following page says she is sewing for the three women and "I hope I will get along this winter". SusunW (talk) 16:32, 30 June 2023 (UTC)