Talk:Abune Mathias

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Archive 1

[Untitled]

I have removed the alternative of "Matewos" for the name of Abune Mathias. It is a completely different name. The Patriarch is named for the apostle Matthias, the name "Matewos" is the Amharic translation for the apolstle Matthew, a completely different saint. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.127.253.45 (talk) 19:11, 5 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This wikipedia entry is highly sourced from the following post: Profile | Abune Mathias, Patriarch of Ethiopian Orthodox Church http://danielberhane.com/2013/02/28/biography-patriarch-abune-mathias-ethiopia-orthodox-church/

However, for some sinister and suspect reason, it is left out in the references. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.76.19 (talk) 23:38, 10 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 21 February 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Abune Mathias → Mathias I – per MOS:HON remove the "Abune" honorific from page title. Target currently redirects to Matthias Corvinus but "Mathias" is not a spelling used in that article. Elizium23 (talk) 23:11, 21 February 2020 (UTC) —Relisting. BegbertBiggs (talk) 15:59, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There are a whole bunch of these "Abune" articles waiting to be renamed, so we should probably decide on a regular sort of disambiguation suffix for them. Mathias (Ethiopian patriarch) perhaps? Elizium23 (talk) 23:17, 21 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose until we either clarify the guideline at MOS:HON (or elsewhere), to cover all such patriarchal titles, or consistently apply it to all such articles. I'm partially re-writing comments that I'd posted a moment ago, now that I've gone back and re-read MOS:HON. I don't think the guideline is clear about titles; it is more specific about (for example) "His Holiness" and goes on to allow usages such as Mother Teresa. Having said that, I was actually under the impression (or just misremembering) that we do not use "Pope" or "Abune" or "Patriarch" in article names (much as we have an Elizabeth II article, rather than "Queen Elizabeth II" about the monarch). Instead, the opposite seems to be the case. I was afraid I'd be invoking WP:WHATABOUTX, if I pointed out that the Roman Catholic Pope articles (at least, for the current and previous 2 Popes) all use the form "Pope X". I went to see how we disambiguated Francis, thinking that we could use that same strategy for the Abune articles -- but it's Pope Francis. We also have Pope Tawadros II of Alexandria, as opposed to the expected "Tawadros II." I can't help but suggest that if we're going to move the Abune articles, we also need to move the Pope articles; at any rate in spite of what MOS:HON says, Wikipedia is (currently) consistent about using "Pope" or "Abune" in its article names. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 00:41, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:51, 22 February 2020 (UTC))[reply]

KIENGIR, what is your rationale? Elizium23 (talk) 00:52, 22 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Per Gyrofrog, and just because the spelling is not present at the referred article I do not find as a sufficient argumenta, since spelling varies widely not just locally, but outside Hungary.(KIENGIR (talk) 00:57, 22 February 2020 (UTC))[reply]

Comment: Unless and until this, and the Pope articles, are straightened out one way or the other, I believe Merkorios should move back to Abuna Merkorios. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 01:48, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gyrofrog, you can't just hold stuff hostage because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. This is an absurd rationale. Elizium23 (talk) 01:49, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Previous discussion: Talk:Thoma I

I would reply that the reason "Pope *" articles are this way is because WP:RS invariably name them as such. When is the last time you saw Francis named in the news, in a book, without using "Pope Francis"? That is why we also use "Mother Teresa", because the honorific is inseparable from the name to authors and reporters. Now, is "Abun[ae]" inseparable from these names?

Let's check Mathias: 52,800 results for "mathias tewahedo" but 32,400 results for "mathias tewahedo -abuna -abune". So more than half of the references to Mathias as Patriarch omit his "Abune" honorific.

I tried a search with Paulos but I don't trust the results. The results for Merkorios clearly indicate a majority of sites use "Abuna". Disclaimer: these are naive Google searches and not scholarly ones. These patriarchs carry very common names, so the searching is not straightforward. Elizium23 (talk) 05:27, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More relevant move discussion at Talk:Geevarghese Gregorios. Elizium23 (talk) 05:29, 25 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure what you meant about holding stuff hostage. Maybe I should've expressed myself differently. These articles are consistently named "Abune *"; presumably Merkorios was already moved because it wouldn't have had the disambig. issues like the other articles, but I don't think we should leave Merkorios as-is while (or if) the other article names retain "Abune". Meanwhile, I've just come across WP:NCCL in which the #Patriarchs section is clear about using the title-within-a-title. I would not recommend moving this page to "Mathias I" in any case (although I don't know whether that's still part of the proposal): no one refers to him that way, and as of yet there's no "Mathias II" nor any indication that there will be. (As for #Syriac bishops, while I'm not familiar with "Mar" nor how it is used, not using "Mar" seems inconsistent with the rest of the WP:NCCL guidelines, but the current names of Thoma I etc. directly contradict a specific exception to the "Mar" guideline.) -- Gyrofrog (talk) 17:38, 26 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The Hungarian king's name is frequently spelt this way and he is the clear primary topic. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:56, 6 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.