Talk:Abram Shulsky

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PNAC membership

At the bottom of p.90 (last page) of the PNAC report Rebuilding America's Defenses[1] where Shulsky's name appears, there is a statement as follows.

The above list of individuals participated in at least one project meeting or contributed a paper for discussion. The report is a product solely of the Project for the New American Century and does not necessarily represent the views of the project participants or their affiliated institutions.

--Ubikwit^連絡_{見学/迷惑} 12:14, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And you seem to forget the rest -- that it does not in any way imply at all any agreement with the report which is what not necessarily represent the views of the project participants says. If you can claim a person is a "member" of a group when he might vehemently disagree with every single statement it makes - that is a very interesting concept of "member" indeed. Collect (talk) 12:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Being listed as a person who may disagree with every single position of a group no more makes a person a "member" of that organization than it can make a horse's tail into a leg.

[2] "The other ‘‘listed’’ groups cited in the report were International Workers Order (Goldberg was alleged to be one of the group’s ‘‘representatives’’ in Chicago), the American Committee for the Protection of Foreign Born (he reportedly ‘‘led the discussion on the anti-alien bills’’ at a 1940 conference), American Youth Congress (his name appeared on a mailing list), United Spanish Aid Committee (his name appeared on a list found in the group’s files), the National Emergency Conference (he allegedly signed ‘‘the call’’ for this 1939 conference held ‘‘in protest of legislation’’ believed to threaten ‘‘the civil rights and liberties not only of aliens but of native and naturalized Americans’’), International Citizens Committee for the Arts, Sciences and Professions (he reportedly made reservations at the Continental Hotel for 20 persons ‘‘expected to attend’’ the group’s 1946 convention), Russian War Relief (an unknown source charged he was ‘‘a signer of the Chicago Committee of Russian War Relief’’), and National Federation for Constitutional Liberties (an informant said his name was on ‘‘a list of sponsors’’ of a ‘‘national conference of all civil rights groups to be held in Washington in June, 1940’’ to establish the organization).

As the note you cite states that being listed does not state any agreement with anything, I find it a weak source for asserting "membership" in anything at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:25, 15 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Per the related discussion at Stephen Cambone, your post at the Talk page of Robert Kagan negated the strained "interpretation" you proffered regarding the straightforward grammatical reading of a plain English two-word phrase, so I'm not going to further respond to attempts at rhetorical gymnastics to assert that the text doesn't say what it says, or that others read that way. Misrepresenting sources and editors violates WP:TALK.--Ubikwit^連絡_{見学/迷惑} 11:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

more sources on Shulsky

This peer-reviewed source describes him as a "PNAC study participant" with reference to the report Rebuilding America’s Defenses. The director of the Office of Special Plans was PNAC study participant Abram Shulsky. The Road to 9/11: Wealth, Empire, and the Future of America, Peter Dale Scott, University of California Press, 2008
This peer-reviewed source describes Shulsky as a "PNAC associate": Other PNAC associates and/or prominent unipolarists who landed positions included… Cambone…Cohen…Feith…Libby…Shulsky…Imperial Designs: Neoconservatism and the New Pax Americana, Gary Dorrien Routledge, 2004
--Ubikwit^連絡_{見学/迷惑} 12:42, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Participation" != "member". I "participated in college fencing" I was not a "member of a college fencing team." And when a source says "and/or" that is not the same as saying "both" by the way. That is why "and/or" is a weak hook on which to hang any claim that a person was one particular category in that "and/or".

Other PNAC associates and/or prominent unipolarists who landed positions included… Cambone…Cohen ... Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:10, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Funny you should mention that, the author includes nearly the same passage in slightly less detailed form eliminating the "and/or" in another (peer-reviewed) bookhere. It should be noted that only two that he listed were not associated with PNAC: Luti and Wurmser. Clearly he seems to know who is associated with PNAC and who isn't. Are you saying that he doesn't mean to specify that the PNAC members on the list are "PNAC associates"?--Ubikwit^連絡_{見学/迷惑} 14:47, 18 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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