Talk:A Tale of the Ragged Mountains

Massive cleanup required

Great job on starting this article... I was thinking about submitting it for WP:DYK but (as tends to happen with new Wikipedia editors in writing their first article), most of what is here is in need of clean-up. Much of the article looks like original research and, without footnotes, is not verifiable. The entire section on Themes (besides being repetitive) is a candidate for complete removal as it stands. The lead also includes ridiculous claims, such as it's lack of being anthologized (I have six anthologies next to me right now and it's in five of them) and lacking significant analysis compared to other stories (I have read plenty of scholarly work on this story). If the original editors drop by again, I hope they take some time to learn how this project works and not just add what I presume is a personal essay for a class. I'm here to help. --Midnightdreary (talk) 12:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

You are "here to help" but your response seems mixed ("good job" & "ridiculous") if not a bit harsh for first timers. We have read about the rules of posting, but obviously not exhaustively. I was unaware of the 'no original research' rule, but the observations we make regarding the story in the second paragraph are clear facts from the story, not critical interpretations - it does connect with British Imperial history, psychoactive drugs and doctor-patient relationships. Does these need to be observed by another to be valid observations?

I'd be interested in the titles of the plentiful criticism you've read - why not list the titles in the entry? Also, can this entry include an image from the Ragged Mountains?

Thanks for the guidance.

(MATX13 (talk) 21:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC))

I really am trying to help, which is why I posted here in order to encourage discussion. I didn't meant to sound insulting with the "ridiculous" line. I do, however, stand by my assertion that it is not good to claim that the story is rarely anthologized. According to standards of the "original research" policy, the only place that any discussion of literature on Wikipedia does not need a footnote is in the plot summary. Plot summary, of course, can only recount what is already in the text clearly - not stuff that is implied, or connections that are not directly made. What you were adding would be considered "Analysis" and, as such, needs citations to previously-published sources. A massive violation of the standard encyclopedic tone is the use of the first person tense (i.e. the "we" used throughout the Themes section).

As far as your specific questions, why not list titles of criticisms in the entry... well, it doesn't seem relevant and, of course, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate list. These sorts of sources can be used to build the analysis section, with footnotes. Regardless, to say "there is not significant analysis" is 100% a violation of the original research rule (According to whom? If you made this observation, it's OR). Images are welcome in accordance with the image policies, if you think it adds to the article on this story. Let me know what else you need. I really am trying to help! --Midnightdreary (talk) 01:11, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

First-timer

Thanks for helping to make the article better than before. I do appreciate the help and I need to learn the wiki codes to make the page even better. Much of what is written would definitely benefit from footnotes. Fortunately, I do have the footnotes and the sources handy, it's just a matter of adding them in when I have time. As for the ridiculous claims about its lack of being studied as vigorously as his other works, just look to the Edgar Allan Poe page on wikipedia - there is no mention of the story anywhere. It's not even listed in the Edgar Allan Poe Tales list.

Dashfast (talk) 18:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Is there any way that you can do me a favor and upload the RM.jpg picture to this page? I am not a 4-day user yet and therefore cannot do it. I uploaded it to the wikimedia commons, and it can be found here: http://tools.wikimedia.de/~daniel/WikiSense/Gallery.php?wikifam=commons.wikimedia.org&img_user_text=Dashfast

That's very, very good to hear! Footnotes automatically lend credibility to this site (which, as you may know, is often questioned). As the primary author of the Edgar Allan Poe page, I'd suggest that the story isn't listed on that article because the list of works is kept as minimal as possible (the comprehensive list is at Bibliography of Edgar Allan Poe). Besides, that certainly doesn't mean it lacks any scholarly work! I'll see about taking care of that image for you. If you need anything else, let me know. --Midnightdreary (talk) 18:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Saratoga Racing Course

Since the story had been published 19 years before the Racing Course opened, I don't think it's very likely that Beldo(e) and Templeton met there ...--77.76.205.22 (talk) 14:17, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Good observation. And I would also note that this kind of personal speculation does not belong in a plot summary. I'll remove it. --Midnightdreary (talk) 14:32, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

City name in the plot summary

Both in the edition I have here and in the linked Wikisource version it says the city is "Benares, upon the Holy River", not Calcutta. Leiffrenzel (talk) 05:38, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Themes

In the text of "A Tale of the Ragged Mountains" readers can discover scientific theories of Poe's day such as Mesmerism, and the story also connects with British imperial history as in the kiosk scene in the "Eastern-looking city." The story also includes psychoactive drugs in Bedloe's daily morphine, the transmigration of the soul to this city and the dynamics of the doctor-patient relationship as explored in Bedloe's history with Doctor Templeton.

Mesmerism

Mesmerism, a forerunner of hypnotism, is the central scientific feature of the story, and was first developed in the 18th century by Franz Mesmer. It is a therapeutic doctrine or system by which a trained practitioner can induce a hypnotic state in a patient by the exercise of a force called animal magnetism.

The problem presented by Franz Anton Mesmer, who died in 1815 (within Poe’s lifetime), was that he had the right facts (the trance and the curious phenomena resulting from it) but the wrong theory. Mesmer believed that he put his subjects into his celebrated trance by infusing their nervous systems with “animal magnetism”, rays of a universal cosmic fluid. This original theory of the founder lingered after the true theory had been put forward by his followers, namely, that the trance resulted from suggestion in the subject’s mind, its cause being psychological rather than physical. When this fact was established, Mesmerism became scientific hypnotism.

Mesmerism had an enormous impact on literature in Europe and America. Poe took his version largely from Chauncy Hare Townshend's Facts in Mesmerism, which informed him that one human being could control animal magnetism, channel it through space into the nervous system of another human being, and thereby dominate his ideas, volitions, and emotions. Poe, who believed Townshend’s theory, found it an admirable starting-point for a special type of Gothic fiction. In “A Tale of the Ragged Mountains”, thought transference from Templeton could be what causes Bedloe to have hallucinations.

The Occult

In this story, we have already seen the ways in which mesmerism, the aforementioned mysterious scientific practice, sets the landscape for the story. The theory closely resembles hypnotism whereby a trained practitioner can induce a hypnotic state in a patient through the utilization of a force. This procedure appears to be the foundation for the relationship between Dr. Templeton and Mr. Bedloe.

It is apparent that Templeton and Bedloe’s interactions center around their dealings with animal magnetism. Near the very beginning of the story, we are told that Templeton has control over Bedloe and can make him go to "sleep" by "mere volition". Templeton harnesses this power so fully and expertly that it is not unbelievable that he could put Bedloe through a thoroughly fantastic journey.

The authenticity of Bedloe's adventure is never truly known, as Poe forces us to question the unexplainable and embrace the ambiguous. He demonstrates his deftness as an author because, on one level, he uses the occult to bring us to question reality, and on another, he uses it to challenge the validity of Bedloe’s "Tale of the Ragged Mountains".