Talk:A-Group culture

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Copyvio

I've just rolled back all the edits of one editor after finding material from [1], [2] and [3] (although the editor may have used other sites, these are just examples. Dougweller (talk) 10:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Language

Skllagyook

Neither i or cooper have stated they were cushitic speaking,im simply pointing out that nilo saharan was absent in pre meroitic nubia,which is where the A group was from,not that they were certainly afro asiatic (which is why i said "possibly" the earlier A-group),

I wasn't Infering an implication,cooper states 'Thus, Pre-Meroitic Lower Nubia cannot have been occupied by speakers of an allied Nilo-Saharan language but must have been occupied by speakers of a wholly different language.' were the A-group not a population of "pre-meroitic" Lower nubia? cooper clearly exludes nilo saharan influence on pre-meroitic lower nubia

My point is not that they were Afro asiatic (which is possible) ,but rather that they were unlikley to be nilo saharan speakers as cooper himself states 'Thus, Pre-Meroitic Lower Nubia cannot have been occupied by speakers of an allied Nilo-Saharan language but must have been occupied by speakers of a wholly different language.', hope that helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jedorton (talk • contribs) 03:52, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Jedorton:. I see you posted both here and on my personal page, so I will also reply here. But this seems the better page to discuss. Let's continue the discussion on this page.

Regarding your post above, the source does not seem to explicitly state or necessarily support the claim that the A-Group people must have spoken Afro-Asiatic languages or necessarily could not have spoken Nilo-Saharan languages. That could be the interpretation intended by the author (Cooper), and it seems plausible, but not certain/clear. Cooper in the quote (what is the page number by the way?) speaks of/excludes "allied Nilo-Saharan languages" (from early Lower Nubia) rather than Nilo-Saharan (NS) languages in general. One asks, allied to what? He could possibly be referring to NS languages of the Eastern Sudanic branch in particular, since in the study he argues that Eastern Sudanic languages were spoken in south and central (i.e. Upper) Nubia at the time, and that Meroitic was one of those. He could be (and also seems plausibly to be) arguing that NS lamguages allied to those (i.e. Eastern Sudanic) such as Meroitic could not have been spoken in Lower Nubia (but, perhaps, like Rilly, does not exclude other branches of the NS family from possibly existing there) - i.e., it was not a NS language allied to Meroitic.

It is not entirely clear what he means. It is clear that Cooper is arguing that Cushitic/Afro-Asiatic (and not NS) languages were spoken in Lower Nubia from the time of the C-Group to the beginning of the Meroitic period, and it is tempting to assume that he means this to apply to the A-Group also. But the A-Group period was earlier than that the C-Group, and it does not seem certain that he does. It is clear however, that he is stating that prior to the Meroitic period (and the arrival of the Meroitic language), the peoples of Lower Nubia (including the A-Group people) could not have spoken NS languages allied to Meroitic (and other Eastern Sudanic NS languages spoken in Upper Nubia). But that is all that seems certain from the quote you provided and the source. As mentioned, the source does not explicitly state or support the claim that the A-Group people must have spoken Afro-Asiatic languages (to infer that would be WP:OR). Thus it seems more appropriate to re-word the addition to read something like the following:

"According to Julien Cooper (2017), the peoples of Lower Nubia (where the A-Group resided) could not have speak languages allied to the Eastern Sudanic branch of the Nilo Saharan family (which he argues were prevalent in Upper Nubia) until the arrival of Meroitic."

Also, please sign your posts (by typing four tildes, i.e. ~) to avoid confusion. Skllagyook (talk) 04:38, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have reworded your new addition to more closely follow the source (which merely seems to state that the A-Group culture could not have spoken a NS language "alllied to" (i.e. of the kind of) those spoken in the south of Nubia). Skllagyook (talk) 05:01, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Jedorton:. Looking over Cooper again, he does seem in fact, to tentatively suggest that the A-group culture may have spoken an Afro-Asiatic language (but does not state so definitively or exclude the possibility of a non-Eastern Sudan Nilo-Saharan language). On page 201 he writes:

"The word WAwAt has been re-lated to a Beja word for “dry” by El-Sayed, which might give us a clue to the linguistic geography of Lower Nubia (A- & C-Group speakers), but none of the other place names are easily matchable to any root in known languages of Sudan. It might well be that an as yet un-identiﬁed branch of Cushitic was spoken in Lower Nubia before the arrival of North Eastern Sudanic languages, such as Meroitic..."

Referring to Wawat again (among other possible Cushitic-speaking regions - contrasting them with the likely Eastern Sudan-speaking regions around Kerma and Sai/Kush and Irem) he writes on page 204:

"The Irem-list also provides a similar inventory to Kush, plac-ing this ﬁrmly in an Eastern Sudanic zone. These Irem/Kush-lists are distinctive from the Wawat-, Medjay-, Punt-, and Wetenet-lists, which provide sounds typical to Afroasiatic languages."

Thus it seems reasonable to add to the article, that Cooper suggests that The A-Group culture might have been Afro-Asiatic-speaking. But to state that he considers it "likely" may be a bit too strong and beyond what the source justifies. Thus I have now (in an updated rewording) reworded the section to read:

"According to Julien Cooper (2017), languages allied to those of the Eastern Sudanic branch of the Nilo-Saharan family (which he proposes were prevalent in Upper Nubia) could not have been spoken in Lower (northern) Nubia (where the A-Group culture existed) prior to the coming of Meroitic. Thus he suggests that another (non-Eastern Sudanic), possibly Afro-Asiatic, language may have been spoken by the A-Group culture."

The source here. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332535260_Toponymic_Strata_in_Ancient_Nubia_until_the_Common_Era

Skllagyook (talk) 05:30, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is my very first wiki edit (sort of) so forgive me for the mistakes.

Regarding the page number,page 205,his statement seems pretty general to me,he clearly states Nilo saharan,not a subfamily of it,But generally Nilo saharan,its true that cooper may have not have intend to mean my specific interpretation of the language of the A group,he specifically talks about the C-group time period,But "pre meroitic" Lower Nubia includes the A-group and is relavent to them,cooper uses toponymic data,toponyms that may have origins in the language spoken by the A group,or maybe none at all,either way there is a lack of Nilo saharan influence on his middle kingdom egyptian toponyms of "pre-meroitic" lower nubia,My edit was not to assert an afroasiatic or cushitic classification for the A group language but to highlight that it is unlikley to be Nilo saharan as cooper states.

Im fine with your rewording,i just thought coopers opinion on the languages of pre meroitic Lower Nubia (which the A-group were part of) was worth adding.

Jedorton (talk) 05:39, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Jedorton:. I understand. It does seem from the study overall, that Cooper probably considers Afro-Asiatic more likely than anything else (though it seems to be expressed very tentatively and speculatively) - and at first I may have replied a bit hastily before thoroughly rereading the source - (and Cooper certainly does not seem to believe, or does not state or seem or imply, that there any is evidence of a Nilo-Saharan language having been spoken in Upper Nubia). But, it does seem best to closely follow the source and not overstate anything. In my opinion, my edit/the current edit does sum up the source appropriately, duly highlighting the possibility of Afro-Asiatic (as it is tentatively suggested in the source) without being too unduly exclusionary or going beyond what the source says. Skllagyook (talk) 06:27, 16 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment @Skllagyook: I highly appreciate your careful reading and your appraoch towards consensus-building, but I think your initial point of contention was correct. Cooper's article is a very valuable source, but does not provide much information about the language of the A-group—it doesn't even intend to do so. Let us check what the article really is about:

The time-range that is covered. This is best taken from the "Conclusion" on pp. 208–209. Cooper writes: The toponymic data in Egyptian texts has broadly identified at least three linguistic blocs in the Middle Nile region of the second and first millennium BCE, each of which probably exhibited a great degree of internal variation. Obviously, this range does not include the period of the A-Group.
The following statement on p. 205 is cited by Jedorton: Thus, Pre-Meroitic Lower Nubia cannot have been occupied by speakers of an allied Nilo-Saharan language but must have been occupied by speakers of a wholly different languagel. What does "Pre-Meroitic" mean? It certainly could mean any time before the Meroitic period until back to infinitum, but no serious researcher would intend such a reading. Let's take an analogy: toponymic and historical evidence shows that eastern Germany was inhabited by Slavic speakers prior to the Ostkolonisation. However, it would be a fallacy to assume that this area never was inhabited by Germanic speakers before that period; historical records indicate the opposite: before the Slavic expansion, the area that is now eastern Germany and western and northern Poland was inhabited by various Germanic tribes such as the Suebi, Rugii and Goths.
Presuming that Cooper is a sensible researcher (which I am sure of), his statement is intended for the C-group language, and nothing else.
What does Cooper actually say about the A-group language? First of all: the linguistic identity of A-Group, C-Group, and Kerma ancien speakers is far from certain. Further, Egyptian record show minimal toponymic continuity from the A-group to the C-group, with only one or two common place names retained. Generally, Nubian place names recorded during the Old Kingdon (thus, actually post-A-group) are [not] easily matchable to any root in known languages of Sudan.

To sum up: Cooper does not really make any assumptions about the A-group language. Constructing two sentences about what Cooper does not say and might suggest is far-fetched, and looks like trying hard to read things into the paper which simply aren't there. If we want to write about the possible linguistic affiliations of the A-group, we should stick to Rilly (2019), who at least makes a statement directly about the A-Group language, even though he leaves the question quite open. –Austronesier (talk) 10:02, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Austronesier: That is a good catch. It seems my initial instincts were correct. Skllagyook (talk) 11:53, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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