Jump to content

Talk:6.5×55mm Swedish

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Requested move 16 December 2020

[edit]
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 23:48, 13 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]


6.5×55mm Swedish → 6.5×55 mm – 6.5×55 mm is the WP:COMMONNAME. The cartridge is predominately used (by a whole lot) by shooting sport associations in Scandinavia, which simply refer to the cartridge as 6.5×55 mm in everyday speech. Previously it was a military cartridge in Norway and Sweden, and was then also referred officially to as 6.5×55 mm. Calling the cartridge 6.5x55 mm Swedish is a misnormer, strengthening the misconception in the U.S. that this cartridge was developed in Sweden, for Sweden, by Sweden. That is historyless and tendentious, since the cartridge was developed in a joint Norwegian and Swedish effort. Actually it could be argued that perhaps most of work on drafting the standard was done on the Norwegian part.

The concrete chambering specifications and the small technical differences between those are well described in the article. The original and historical 6.5×55 mm specification (from the 1890s, which is also used as a general to describe all these chamberings), the 6.5×55 SE (1984 by C.I.P), 6.5 × 55 SKAN (1990 by the Scandinavian shooting associations, and arguably the most widely used chambering), and 6.5×55 Swedish (1993, SAAMI). These standards differ slightly on dimensions, and the SAAMI version also uses a different measurement system (inch based measurement vs. millimeter based) as well as measurement method (how the pressure is measured). It is misleading to refer to all these chamberings as 6.5×55 Swedish, since that is only one particular chambering. 6.5×55 mm is used to refer to them all in general. 6.5×55 Swedish is used to refer to these cartdriges in a many newer American reloading manuals. However, actually very few rifles have the 6.5×55 Swedish chamber specification. Most 6.5x55 mm rifles are manufactured in Europe with either 6.5x55 mm SKAN or SE chambers. The long standing common name for over 100 years has been simply 6.5x55 mm.

To cite another thread: "Is Wikipedia supposed to provide accurate information, or just be part of a misnomer treadmill?" Sauer202 (talk) 11:47, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This argument flies in the face of WP:COMMONNAME. Cavalryman (talk) 16:49, 23 December 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Wikipedia:Article titles states that "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; see § Neutrality in article titles, below. Article titles should be neither vulgar (unless unavoidable) nor pedantic. When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."

It is simply known as 6.5x55 mm in Norway, Sweden, Denmark and Finland. And also by many Americans! As a 6.5x55 user myself, I can testify that no one in Scandinavia calls it the "6.5 Swedish" (not even the Swedes!). I can not understand how "Swedish" should be the common name.

Although a search engine test is no definitive proof, some Google searches gave the following hits:

  • "6.5x55" - 486 000 hits
  • "6.5x55" -swedish - 434 000 hits (that is, ignore hits with the word "Swedish")
  • "6.5x55" "swedish" - 128 000 hits
  • "6.5x55 swedish" - 101 000 hits

There are also different pressure standards. 6.5x55 Swedish is just the SAAMI specification, and to imply that these are "the same thing" could be dangerous. As 6.5x55 is mostly chambered in European rifles (with either a SKAN or SE chamber), the SAAMI specification is arguably the least used chamber specification.

It could even be argued that the cartridge is Norwegian in origin. According to the book "Norske Militærgeværer etter 1867" (1998) by Karl Egil Hanevik, the first traces of any 6.5 mm cartridge being considered for military adoption of any of the Scandinavian countries was in fact by a committee created by the Norwegian Ministry of Defence on 23 April 1889, named "Geværkommision til Behandling av Spørgsmaalet om Overgang til et mindre Geværkaliber end 10,15 mm". In 1891, this committee got a hold of a 6.5 mm Italian Mannlicher rifle (probably chambered in 6.5×52mm Carcano), and decided to prototype barrels in the 6.5 mm caliber. So the historical basis of this being a Swedish cartridge rather than a Norwegian or Scandinavian is pretty slim. A necked down 7 mm case was used as a basis, and an early Norwegian 6.5 mm prototype is seen on page 96 in the mentioned book. After testing and comparing to some other calibers, the Norwegian committee decided that the 6.5 mm gave the best performance according to their set criteria. Moving to such a small caliber was met with scepticism by their Swedish colleagues. The Norwegian "Forsøgspatron, Marts 1893" nicknamed "unionspatronen" (the Union cartridge), on page 109, looks very similar to what became today's 6.5x55. Fast forward, and it was not until 3 November 1893 that the joint Norwegian and Swedish committee was created to decide on a common cartridge. The Swedes had now changed their mind on the 6.5 being too small, and the joint committee quickly decided to agree on a 6.7 mm bullet, 55 mm long case and 80 mm cartridge overall length. More development folowed. As said, it is tendentious to say that this is a Swedish cartridge, when it in fact is a cartridge with a Scandinavian history.

Sauer202 (talk) 23:57, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As interesting as this is, it is not policy based (I suggest you read WP:ENGLISH & WP:GOOGLETEST) and it still contradicts WP:COMMONNAME. Neither of you have presented any contemporary English language sources to overrule the many presented in the previous discussion. Cavalryman (talk) 00:38, 29 December 2020 (UTC).[reply]
The previous discussion cited most sources for "6.5x55 Swedish Mauser", which is not an official name used anywhere. It seems like "6.5x55 mm Swedish" was reached as a compromise in the previous discussion. To cite the Wikipedia policy again: "When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others" In that regard, I view 6.5x55 as "problem free". Sauer202 (talk) 01:58, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Neither of you have produced a single source to support your preferred name, everything you have said is just according to you. Cavalryman (talk) 08:58, 29 December 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Here are some sources indicating that "6.5x55 mm" is the common name:

The whole "Swedish Mauser" vs "Norwegian Krag" thing is based on a dated, erronous misnormer. Repeating it does not make it more true. The confusion is based on the fact that, while having the same agreed upon 6.5x55 mm chamber specification, cartridge specifications like all mechanical things have tolerances. The Norwegian Krag's tended to lie close to the upper portion of the chamber tolerances (while still inside the 6.5x55 mm chamber specification), while the Swedish Mauser's tended to lie close to the lower portion of the chamber tolerances (while also still inside the 6.5x55 mm chamber specification). Sauer202 (talk) 12:43, 29 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies, I should have specified reliable secondary sources, for instance:
  • Petzal, David E. (26 May 2020). "The 6.5 Creedmoor Vs. the 6.5x55 Swedish". Field & Stream. New York: Bonnier Corporation. ISSN 0030-7076. Retrieved 30 December 2020.
But if you like primary sources:
Interestingly none use the “mm”, but to be WP:CONSISTENT with Wikipedia’s current naming naming conventions for metric cartridges I think it should stay, to amend the conventions would require an RfC. Regards, Cavalryman (talk) 05:01, 30 December 2020 (UTC).[reply]
I view at least the United States Defence Intelligence Agency and VihtaVuori as reliable sources.
"6.5 × 55 SE" is also an alternative, this being a European cartridge.[1] The United Kingdom is a member state of C.I.P.
"6.5x55" is the SAAMI abbreviation.[2]
I agree that "mm" should be appended to signify the measuring system, as is common. But since we are on the subject, ideally there should be a space between the number and mm (6.5x55 mm, not 6.5x55mm), as is common when using the SI system in general. For some reason, cartridge names on Wikipedia sadly tend to not have this space before the unit.
In addition to the historical basis of the cartridge for a long time being specified as 6.5x55 mm (with a comma or point as a decimal separator, and with or without spaces here and there, depending on time and place), I agree with the argument from BP OMowe that "6.5×55 mm is the one thing all the different naming systems have in common" Sauer202 (talk) 16:11, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
VihtaVuori are a primary source at best, not a secondary source. Cavalryman (talk) 19:51, 30 December 2020 (UTC).[reply]
  • Comment, insufficient reliable sources have been provided to validate this proposal, whilst multiple sources have been been provided confirming the current title is indeed the common name. Cavalryman (talk) 13:04, 2 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]
Do you agree that the United States Defence Intelligence Agency is a reliable source? Another reliable source is the book The Swedish Mauser Rifles.[3] I still hold that the common name is indeed "6.5x55 mm". Sauer202 (talk) 22:04, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No, as articulated below. Cavalryman (talk) 02:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]
Furthermore, many of the sources above mention Swedish Mauser being a common name, and these can not be used to support using simply Swedish. "Swedish Mauser" (nickname for a series of rifles, like the m/96 etc.) is something completely different than "Swedish" (which implies the nation of origin for the cartrige). Sauer202 (talk) 22:05, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sauer202 (talk) 22:32, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
To address your various sources:
  • Besides the obvious age issues, the DIA source is clearly inaccurate on the most commonly used names for various cartridges, a couple I have picked include .30-06 Springfield (which they claim to be most commonly called the 7.62x63), the .303 British (which they claim to be most commonly called the 7.7x56R) and the .50 BMG (which they claim to most commonly called the 12.7x99).
  • Both the Australian Shooter and the rifleshootermagazine.co.uk use an absolute hotch potch of various abbreviations for various cartridges throughout both articles that could not be claimed to be common names.
  • The Walker publication is a single fleeting mention.
  • The Barnes citation is a actually a primary source (a company pamphlet) although Barnes himself does use the name Swedish Mauser in Cartridges of the World (a real secondary source), something that does not support your case.
So no, most of these sources do not support the page move. Cavalryman (talk) 02:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]

First, thanks for taking the time to comment specific sources in detail.

The DIA source does not claim that 7.62x63 (7.62 x 63 mm), 7.7x56R (7.7 x 56 mm R) and 12.7x99 are the most commonly used names for .30-06 Springfield, .303 British and .50 BMG, but these are however accepted metric names as can be seen for instance in their respective Wikipedia articles. And the 6.5x55 is a metric cartridge. To my knowledge 7.62x63 has been used as an official designation on .30-06 at least in Europe after the second world war until it was replaced by the 7.62x51 NATO. 12.7x99 is currently in fact a standard NATO round.

  • "Both the Australian Shooter and the rifleshootermagazine.co.uk use an absolute hotch potch of various abbreviations for various"

-> I view the Australian Shooter and rifleshootermagazine.co.uk as just as, if not more, authorative source on the subject than American magazines, as the 6.5x55 mm round is probably more common at least per capita in these countries.

  • "The Walker publication is a single fleeting mention."

-> But that just shows how the cartridge is commonly named in sentences: "6.5x55" or "6.5x55mm". (It is "John Walter", by the way. -- Also misspelled by me above, so no worries..)

About the book The Swedish Mauser Rifles not being an acceptable source:

  • "No, as articulated below. Cavalryman (talk) 02:05, 5 January 2021 (UTC)."

-> You did not seem to address the use of 6.5x55 mm in the book The Swedish Mauser Rifles[3] (Or perhaps I missed it?)

Now my turn to comment your supporting sources. :)

The Cartridges of the World is a fun read, but contains a lot of errors and "bonfire stories" with little factual support. While a good general guide and introduction to the cartridge world, it should not used as an authorative source for factual details such as the name of the 6.5x55 mm cartridge. The book The Swedish Mauser Rifles should be viewed as a much more authorative book on the subject since it is an expert book going into depth on many of the military rifles chambered for this specific cartridge.

I still propose to move the article to "6.5x55 mm", as I have done all the way. Article titles should be neutral, and we should be able to use some common sense. I find it absolutely incredible that the original move from "6.5x55mm" was approved.

Alternatively I propose the move to "6.5x55mm Swedish Mauser", since that seems to be the most cited version in newer English language litterature, per the original move discussion above. Actually by a lot, per the previous discussion. The basis of this alternative proposal is that "Swedish" erronously implies this being a Swedish cartridge in origin, while "Swedish Mauser" only implies it was used in the Swedish Mauser series of rifles - which is correct. (However, it was used in the Norwegian Krag's as well.)

Sauer202 (talk) 12:17, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To reiterate:
Wikipedia:Article titles states that "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; see § Neutrality in article titles, below. Article titles should be neither vulgar (unless unavoidable) nor pedantic. When there are multiple names for a subject, all of which are fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others."
Sauer202 (talk) 12:20, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for for informing me about the .50 BMG being an accepted NATO round, it has been at least 3 months since I last fired one, 12.7x99mm NATO is the official name in service but I can assure you users don’t call it that in conversation. It is illustrative that the DIA source is not authoritative on the most common designation of any cartridge’s name.
Do you have any reliable source that states the cartridge is more common per capita in Britain & Australia? I can tell you it is really rare in Australia, my understanding is it reasonably common in Britain. Still, that does not address the point I made, those two articles use a complete mush mash of abbreviations and names for various cartridges throughout and are inappropriate for determining the most common naming conversation.
Apologies I did not address the The Swedish Mauser Rifles book, I am trying to work out if it is self published, the publisher’s website gives little (no) details about their editorial oversight. As can be seen on the website, one of the authors has a very close affiliation with them.
Since you linked to Barnes’ website, a couple more:
Regards, Cavalryman (talk) 01:28, 6 January 2021 (UTC).[reply]

The 12.7x99 is referred to as "tolvsju" in Norway (which translates to "twelve-seven"). I have also heard it being called ".50 cal" by American soldiers (not to be confused with other 0.50 caliber cartridges). Arguments about nicknames are moot, though. For example, .223 Remington is often called "223" in everyday speech.

The note about per capita was a bold assumption by me based on the likelihood of imports of European firearms for hunting seeming more common in the British and Australian markets (for example based on hunting firearm reviews), while USA mostly is supplied by its own internal market.

We can go back and forth with me finding sources supporting "6.5x55 mm" or "6.5x55 Swedish Mauser", and you finding examples of it being called "6.5x55 Swedish" (or even "6.5x55 Swede", "6.5 Swede" or something similar). It doesn't change the fact that the "Swedish" suffix is controversial, and that 6.5x55 mm is the common denominator. Per the guideline in bold above, 6.5x55 mm should therefore be an acceptable name for this article. 6.5x55 mm was also the original title of this article, and the unbiased, all-encompassing and historically correct name of the cartridge.

I appreciate you inputs, but sense this argument is going in circles right now. Sauer202 (talk) 17:53, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ C.I.P. TDCC datasheet 6.5 x 55 SE Archived 2015-05-18 at the Wayback Machine
  2. ^ SAAMI – Z299.4 – Centerfire Rifle – 2015, PDF page 13 of 375
  3. ^ a b Kehaya, Steve and Poyer, Joe, The Swedish Mauser Rifles, Tustin, California: North Cape Publications, Inc. (2011), ISBN 978-188239126-4 [PDF-copy https://www.collezionareexordinanza.it/uploads/downloads/2018-02-17_181933978-the-swedish-mauser-rifles.pdf], PDF page 18, 23, 38, 40, 64, 70, 126, 139, etc.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Data table

[edit]

I have been working on a new data table for Swedish ammo but its gotten so big that i cant finish it in one go, also i dont know what others will think of this addition. I will finish it here in discussions. Plz comment on its addition.

6,5 mm sk ptr m/94 prj m/94
Component data Performance
Component Designation Weight Type Peak pressure Weapon Barrel length Muzzle Muzzle energy
Cartridge 6,5 mm sk ptr m/94 24.0 g (370 gr) one-piece 2900 atm (3300 bar) 6,5 mm k m/94 449 mm (17.7 in)
Projectile 6,5 mm prj m/94 10.1 g (156 gr) Service ball 6,5 mm g m/38

6,5 mm ksp m/14

600 mm (23.6 in)
Propellant - 2.4 g (37 gr) Gkr III/0,45—0,60 6,5 mm ksp m/14-29

6,5 mm ksp m/36

6,5 mm ksp m/39

6,5 mm ksp m/42

607 mm (23.9 in)
Casing 6,5 mm ptrh m/94 11.5 g (177 gr) Brass 6,5 mm kg m/37 610 mm (24.0 in)
Igniter 5,5 mm th m/94 - Percussion cap 6,5 mm kg m/21 612 mm (24.1 in)
6,5 mm ag m/42 637 mm (25.1 in)
6,5 mm kg m/39 668 mm (26.3 in)
6,5 mm kg m/40 685 mm (27.0 in)
6,5 mm g m/96

6,5 mm g m/41

739 mm (29.1 in)

User:Blockhaj (talk) 19:58, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pmax should be changed to Peak pressure, as the page 8 in the source (Arméns ammunitionsregister anno 1960) state that Pmax is the average peak pressure for normal rounds of the type: 

Pmax anger tryckets medelvärde vid normala skott (således inte högsta tillåtna tryck). Pmax anges i bar. 1 bar= 100000 newton/m2 = 0,99 alm= 750 mm Hg= 1,020 kp/cm2•

BP OMowe (talk) 22:28, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Done--Blockhaj (talk) 11:16, 25 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pressure for military cartridges.

[edit]

Someone made a grave error when looking at the source, assuming that the Pmax in the table on page 20 indicates the highest pressure tolerated. However, page 8 in the same source states that "Pmax indicates the average pressure during normal shots (thus not highest allowed pressure)/.../ specified in [the unit] bar." Note that the measurement method (pierzo, CUP or other) is not mentioned. 

Pmax anger tryckets medelvärde vid normala skott (således inte högsta tillåtna tryck). Pmax anges i bar.

Fixing it now. BP OMowe (talk) 22:46, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Name of this cartrigde

[edit]

Correct name of this cartrigde in Norway and Sweden is 6,5X55. The «Swedish» nickname is american in origin (SAAMI). Thus, the title of this article is wrong. It should be 6,5X55. 2001:4651:678:0:6175:EC41:79C0:1C81 (talk) 14:20, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:6.5×55mm_Swedish&oldid=1258793875"