Talk:2024 Magdeburg car attack/Archive 1

Archive 1

Update

At least 11 dead, sources report. [1]https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/12/20/germany-magdeburg-christmas-market/?msockid=3ffb1c7b735c6a9409f90eb372756b4f Internationed (talk) 20:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

This is not an official report from a German newspaper that is not reliable. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 20:51, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

+1 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 21:18, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Much more injured

68 were injured is wrong. Over 200 are injured and four dead (at the moment) Source: The german public TV https://www.tagesschau.de/newsticker/liveblog-anschlag-magdeburg-100.html 2001:4DD5:733F:0:1917:F754:F536:343 (talk) 09:42, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Football

Weird heading, I know, @ElijahPepe (tagging you because you're the one I've seen the most of) I've seen some initial reporting from Daily Mail and FootBoom saying that there was a football game between FC Magdeburg and Fortuna Düsseldorf that was in its second half when the attack happened. Reportedly this fact was broadcast in the stadium and seemed to have affected fans on both sides, would it be worth mentioning if/when better sources come in? CommissarDoggo^Talk? 20:56, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I would add it to the "Domestic" section as soon as better sources can be found. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 20:58, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Ok, I'll keep an eye out. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 20:59, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Edit war

Please be aware of the pending edit war in the article. It is all about this fragment: [2]. Karol739 (talk) 22:00, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

No need for an edit war. Both cases are connected. Editors should add, that the attacker was a practising psychiatrist. Really strange, since the guy has all the means to calm himself down from a rage. 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 22:04, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Do you have any source for the information that he was a psychiatrist? Thanks in advance, Karol739 (talk) 22:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

It's in the article now: The suspect, a consultant for psychiatry and psychotherapy, was recognised as a refugee in 2016. [3] 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 22:31, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I've added that. Thanks a lot! Karol739 (talk) 22:34, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

WP:BRD

@2a02:3038:20a:efe7:b8bb:856d:9672:d927 Would you mind explaining why you believe that an individual being arrested on suspicion of planning an attack against a Christmas market is somehow not relevant to the background of an attack on a Christmas market? CommissarDoggo^Talk? 21:23, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

It's wikipedia, we have to deal with the bias Jjbomb (talk) 21:30, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

It's nothing new to Germany. What's new is that the security measures where pretty poor, because every Xmas market is secured with concrete barricades. In this case, they failed. 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 21:37, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Business as usual. Like school shootings in the US. Do we cite every attempted school shooting in an actual article? 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 21:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

It may be nothing new, but ultimately that info is about a suspected attack that was supposedly going to be conducted against a Christmas market this year. I fail to see how it's unworthy of note when sources about this attack are mentioning it. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 21:40, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

As above. 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 21:44, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

That doesn't address the fact that the arrest was noted by sources directly relating to this attack; if said attempted/suspected school shooting arrests were noted by sources, we would be having this conversation there as well. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 21:48, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I see. I guess I pass then. 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 21:49, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it's relevant at all to this attack. That other attacks were planned is not related until someone specifically says it was related to this event, in something other than just timine. That it's the 8th anniversary of other attacks is random trivia, that other attacks happened is unrelated. A lot of the major sources are rolling back even calling this 'an attack' at this point. I think we need to hold fire until more is know. per WP:NOTNEWS JeffUK 23:05, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

[4]

Why should we remove that? Regards, Karol739 (talk) 23:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Background

I think the Background section should mention a recent plot related with German Christmas markets: https://www.politico.eu/article/terror-attack-bavaria-christmas-market-foiled-terrorism-isis-islamic-state-extremism-far-right-police/ 31.221.146.133 (talk) 22:42, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Already discussed above and now re-added to the article as it was mentioned in current sources talking about this attack. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 22:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Two more incidents did happen in recent times:

• https://www.n-tv.de/panorama/Terroranschlag-auf-Weihnachtsmarkt-geplant-Polizei-nimmt-17-Jaehrigen-in-Elmshorn-fest-article25353789.html
• https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/ein-sturmgewehr-fuer-den-weihnachtsmarkt-110168195.html

This stuff is really business as usual. I'd suggest to add all incidents or leave all out. 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 23:37, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

There should be a motive section added in sidebar, just like there are with similar incidents.

For consistency there should be a motive section added. It would be insightful as with previous such incidents. Midgetman433 (talk) 01:28, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Similar incidents get labeled as "Islamic extremism" and "anti semitism", so its only fair people mention this guy's political motives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Midgetman433 (talk • contribs) 01:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Pro Greater Israel Views

It is important to mention the suspect was a staunch supporter of Greater Israel, calling for an Israel from Euphrates to Tigris in the middle east, effectively devouring great parts of its neighboring countries. Celebrated Israel's recent occupation of parts of Syria. His ultra-Zionist views are evident in his social media accounts. 78.40.176.221 (talk) 09:25, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, Nile* to Euphrates 78.40.176.221 (talk) 09:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Alleged

While I of course believe that everyone has the right to a fair trial and fair media representation, there should be some consensus on where "alleged" has to appear, and where is too much and clunky.

I don't think the sentence "a driver drove a black BMW rental car" needs "alleged" anywhere. There's no reasonable doubt that a car was driven. Nobody is suggesting it was pushed by an external force such as a hurricane. "A driver" does not suggest that the man arrested is this driver. It does not suggest that the eventual perpetrator of this act had any gender, colour, ideology, age, anything.

Avoiding this altogether by saying "a car drove" is as incorrect as saying "a knife stabbed" or "bullets shot".

However when we are talking about specific acts involving people, I believe it is fair to write "The alleged driver of the vehicle was subsequently arrested at the Allee-Center tram station." This is an incident that happened to one identifiable person. It does not imply that he was the vague "a driver" from the other sentence. Unknown Temptation (talk) 13:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

+1 Maxeto0910 (talk) 13:37, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Attacker was pretending to be atheist

The attacker has been exposed to be an Islamist who supported ISIS and Hamas, but pretended to be an atheist. The MSM has fallen for his lies. See these Twitter posts:

https://x.com/Moraqeb2020/status/1870281930983219599?t=-Qk8vnK-wYotE3GNyYf0gQ

https://x.com/Salansar1/status/1870382338040848634?t=YuaCrqluxHDyrTDlOHEX1A

Linkin Prankster (talk) 15:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

X posts are not reliable sources. WP:TWITTER 207.96.32.81 (talk) 16:52, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Motive should be determined by actions, not words

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The terrorist attacked a Christmas market, how can you claim he is Islamophobic? I propose an edit change motive to Religious extremism, Germanophobia, Christophobia. 62.80.225.198 (talk) 15:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

There has to be reliable sources. 207.96.32.81 (talk) 16:51, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

We have reliable coverage of the attack, as well as identity of the attacker. Mainstream and government sources hesitate to admit the nature of these reoccuring attacks, that should not prevent editors to state what is happening. 62.80.225.198 (talk) 19:11, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Please consult your Holy Bible and cite the passage which mentions Christmas markets (emphasis added) as a legit Christian rite. While you're at it, you may also check out Matthew 21:12–17, Mark 11:15–19, Luke 19:45–48) or John 2:13–16.

Christian fundamentalists reject Christmas markets as a "commodification of faith". However that may be, they are not a long-standing German tradition (Nuremberg being the major exception), but have only become prominent in the last 20 years or so as an extension of the St. Nicholas fairs held in many places across Central Europe. Most people go there primarily to get tipsy on low-grade mulled wine, which is also not a Christian rite as far as I am aware of. In short, the idea that there is anything specifically "Christian" about these commercial events except the date is just as plain wrong as claiming that Halloween trick-or-treating is "paganism".

"[M]ake not my Father's house a house of merchandise". 19:40, 21 December 2024 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A0A:A547:22A4:0:C9BE:3FA8:1520:B410 (talk)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Right-wing terrorism

So this person was an atheist ex-Muslim who was upset about the treatment of ex-Muslim asylum seekers in Germany, and as such made tweets calling for the widespread slaughter of and terrorism against German citizens in response to them not helping asylum seekers from his home country enough. Wikipedia editors classify this motive as "right-wing terrorism," because as we all know, German right-wing extremists are primarily known for their fanatical support of Saudi Arabian asylum seekers. This is a laughable political spin. 2600:4040:4938:6500:1D40:2AA9:8A6F:592C (talk) 09:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Several well-known functionaries of the German far-right party AfD and its right-wing extremist youth organization Junge Alternative followed the attacker's X channel. --2A02:3038:204:BAC6:5F12:41D6:6D6F:CC92 (talk) 10:06, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

And so because someone followed him on social media this is sufficient, in your opinion, to classify the attack as "right-wing terrorism" even though the attacker was clearly motivated by mistreatment of asylum seekers by the German government, which few reasonable people would classify as a right-wing position in Germany. This doesn't make sense. 2600:4040:4938:6500:1D40:2AA9:8A6F:592C (talk) 10:10, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

His video appearance: [5]. RAIR Foundation USA (Rise Align Ignite Reclaim) is a grassroots activist organization comprised of everyday Americans leading a movement to reclaim our Republic from the network of individuals and organizations waging war on Americans, our Constitution, our borders and our Judeo-Christian values. [6] This guy was an ultra right winger for sure. --2A02:3038:204:BAC6:5F12:41D6:6D6F:CC92 (talk) 10:20, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

So he drives his car into a crowd of Germans at a Christmas market after posting in Arabic about the need to slaughter German citizens online and a war against Germany for their refusal to help his countrymen gain entry into Germany, and because he's made statements against Islam this classifies him as "right-wing." Yeah, no, sorry, this is ridiculous and you people are coping. 2600:4040:4938:6500:1D40:2AA9:8A6F:592C (talk) 10:28, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Typical right wing terrorist profile if you ask me: [7]. Also a proponent of Greater Israel views. 2A02:3038:204:BAC6:5F12:41D6:6D6F:CC92 (talk) 10:40, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Breivik copycat, in a nutshell. Whether he read Breivik's "2083" manifesto is a very interesting question, but I am not sure whether we will ever get a good answer to that, since it is unlikely to be a focus in the investigation. It is only certain that he is a very publicly outspoken adherent of the "Great Replacement" narrative in precisely the same form as Breivik was (with a "cabal" of "bleeding-hearts" as "fifth column"), and that he has the exactly same craving to "serve justice" to the "traitors of the Occident", and that he holds similar views regarding Israel's role as a "bulwark state" against the "Muslim deluge", and that he was in Germany already when Breivik committed his crimes and was exposed to European reporting thereof, and that he only became a radical with a desire for murder some time afterwards, and that like Breivik he invented a "secret organization" to kill "traitors who sell out to Islam" with himself as the only demonstrable member. 2A0A:A547:22A4:0:C9BE:3FA8:1520:B410 (talk) 20:13, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Ultra right winger, mass murderer and "christian values" defender Breivik shot 69 kids who were as European as him. But "muh Islam". 2A02:3038:201:7EE4:B469:EBE5:1175:5CBB (talk) 21:36, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

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Canvassing?

Seems to be a weird flux of drive-by comments from IPs who are just complaining Trade (talk) 17:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Unsurprising given that the perp's motive was basically straight out of Breivik's "2083", up to and including a fabricated "secret organization" to combat "dhimmitude" by murdering "traitors", and this of course sets people who support these notions into damage-control mode.

Not that straight if people are too afraid to include the motive in the infobox. Unless, you want to?--Trade (talk) 01:12, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2024

Full name of the perpetrator: Taleb Jawad Al Abdulmohsen. source 2003:100:3700:8C00:13C:606C:5427:FCA4 (talk) 01:56, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2024 (2)

Please add to the infobox:

Motive: Anti-German sentiment

and add the category Category:Anti-German sentiment in Europe. 95.91.212.226 (talk) 05:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

His sentiment was not against "Germans" pro toto, but against supposed "sell-out traitors of Germany", of whom he believed to be a conspiracy that had subverted the country. He loved to cite German right-wing extremists approvingly; his ideology fits like a glove with that of PEGIDA. He is, if anything, pro-German (albeit not in a way that approved of democratic Germany). 2A0A:A547:22A4:0:C9BE:3FA8:1520:B410 (talk) 20:19, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EvergreenFir (talk) 03:58, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Alleged?

is there any doubt that the man they arrested at the scene was the perpetrator? Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The courts will decide his guilt. Until then his crime is alleged. WWGB (talk) 14:12, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The crime is not "alleged" but extensively documented on photos and videos. What the courts will decide is whether it is classed as terrorism, or "simple" multiple first-degree murder, or as manslaughter under the influence of mind-altering substances (police confirm he used some unspecified "mind-altering drug", before the attack, but probaby after acquiring the car).

If you have evidence that the person arrested is not the perpetrator, please present your WP:RS. Or maybe you confuse "alleged" with "accused"? 2A0A:A547:22A4:0:C9BE:3FA8:1520:B410 (talk) 19:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Either one should work per MOS:ALLEGED: "alleged and accused are appropriate when wrongdoing is asserted but undetermined, such as with people awaiting or undergoing a criminal trial" ^Falling_Gravity 23:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The crimes are indeed alleged. He's not been found guilty yet. His documented actions of driving the car into a crowd are not alleged though. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:01, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Attack time was at least 19:02

Source: https://www.bbc.com/news/live/c1j08p44w9kt?post=asset%3Afa265a31-c674-406b-a54a-827975997230#post 2A00:11B1:101F:DDAD:FC59:C031:1498:3313 (talk) 15:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:01, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Minor fix

In the infobox the man arrested is referred both as "Taleb- Al Abdulmosheh" and "Taleb Al- Abdulmosheh", I think the second is the correct.31.221.146.133 (talk) 10:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Misinformation regarding the attacker’s religous views

https://x.com/MaralSalmassi/status/1870413236996092217https://x.com/MaralSalmassi/status/1870413236996092217/quoteshttps://x.com/brainhurty2000/status/1870748491032703430https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1870557768673014066https://x.com/violent_corgi/status/1870557019192557965

folks r claiming that the attacker is a Muslim using out of context tweets. Perhaps we should clarify it in this wiki and the one abt him Cherry567 (talk) 12:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Infobox picture

Why the infobox picture is a still from a recording of a CCTV recording (copyright? hello?) and by having this, do we now allow such pictures of dying people in the open on Wikipedia? Kuracyja (talk) 11:28, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

@Kuracyja Please see the Commons page for the image, it's ineligible for copyright as the picture was created by CCTV. As for your second point, so far it seems to be the best image of the attack itself that was free use, as such it will likely remain there. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 11:34, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

As an example, Killing of Brian Thompson also has a still from CCTV of the shooting as its infobox image. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 11:35, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

"the picture was created by CCTV" - it's a recording of a CCTV recording. Not an original CCTV recording as Template:PD-automated suggests. Kuracyja (talk) 12:17, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

If you wish to contest the validity of the template, I can only advise that you contest it on the Commons talk page, not here. My understanding of it is that an image consisting entirely of a CCTV recording is no more copyrightable than that recording. CommissarDoggo^Talk? 12:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Motive - "Anti-immigration restrictionist" - that is a blatant lie

Taleb Al-Abdulmohsen even ran a web site that helped people migrate to Germany. He was featured on BBC. 2003:D1:C730:1961:C912:A1D7:BEE2:DDB4 (talk) 09:59, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

He was "anti-islamic" immigration specifically according to sources. Theofunny (talk) 10:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

He was anti-Muslim immigration but support atheist refugees immigrating. In fact that’s one reason he is mad at Germany. I’m not sure if saying it’s an anti-immigration attack is appropriate Cherry567 (talk) 15:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Motive Islamophobia

The Motive is clearly Islamophobia. "Germany wants to Islamize Europe."

"Syrian jihadists are receiving asylum in Germany"

A few minutes before the attack, he posted more videos. In one of them, Abdulmohsen said: "The police themselves are the criminals. In this case, I hold the German nation, I hold the German citizens responsible"

Abdulmohsen declared that Angela Merkel deserved the death penalty for her secret criminal project of Islamizing Europe.

This Guy thought Germany and German police were protecting "Jihadists". Midgetman433 (talk) 15:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Is there a source for that being the motive or is it your conclusion, i.e. WP:OR? It is quite obvious that the guy has something against Islam (and a couple other things), but as far as I can see German police are still investigating. 2001:2020:337:DF3D:7D64:1291:1EB4:3383 (talk) 15:42, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

He wrote many of these posts right before he did the attack. Midgetman433 (talk) 15:47, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Here is a source[8].VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 18:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Just because he’s islamophobic doesn’t mean this is why he attacked Cherry567 (talk) 15:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Suspect past tense?

In the introduction the suspect is mentioned in the past tense ("was a 50-year-old refugee"). When I read that, I assumed he'd died. Which does not seem to be the case. So maybe make it the present tense? Ribidag (talk) Ribidag (talk) 18:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

•  Done--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 19:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Official motive

While it seems that the perpetrator's motive has been the subject of much debate and heated editing, it seems that an official statement has finally been made. It may seem preliminary, but since it is official, I suppose it could be added to the article and the infobox.

"Prosecutors make first comments on potential motive". DW. 2024-12-22. [emphasis mine]

A senior public prosecutor in Magdeburg, Horst Walter Nopens, offered first indications about the potenital motive for the attack in a press conference on Saturday.

He said the suspect had made comments about his motive during questioning but that it was still necessary to see which of these held up to scrutiny.

Based on current information, he said, the motivation for the crime "could have been ... dissatisfaction with the treatment of Saudi Arabian refugees in Germany."

—79.163.180.66 (talk) 17:14, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Note that "could have been" in the quote. elijahpepe@wikipedia (he/him) 17:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Still, someone has included it in the lead. Theofunny (talk) 20:16, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Surely we need the verdict of a court to confirm what they find the motive to be before we include it. Speculation, especially by 'prosecutors', cannot be asserted as if fact in Wikipedia's voice by putting it in the infobox. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Photo of perpretator

1) Concerning the year of the photo: Just because his passport was issued in 2008 doesn't necessarily imply that the photo used on it has to be from the same year. The reference cited doesn't verify the year of the photo either.

2) Do we really need a photo of the perpretator in this article when we have an own article about him in which it is already included? Seems kinda redundant. Sure, in case his article gets merged, it would make sense, but thats something we could do in the future, not to mention that it looks like the article will be kept as of now. Maxeto0910 (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

1) Saudi passport requirements stipulate that the photo be taken within the six months prior to application (source). Surely he could submit one taken earlier where he looks the same, but I think that's why the date is given as *circa* 2008.

2) Personally, for what it's worth, I see no redundancy there. —79.163.180.66 (talk) 21:09, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

1) "Circa" means around 2008, but we don't know anything about the year of the photo, which is why it's just wrong to state that. It could be from 1995, which isn't close to 2008, so "circa 2008" is purely speculative and based on the assumption that he sticked to the Saudi passport requirements. Only thing we can say with certainity is that it's from before 2009.

2) I'm not sure if the photo really provides that much value to readers. Sure, for the article of the person it does, but it doesn't aid the understanding of the attack, so I'd argue we don't need it here as long as the suspected perpetrator has his own article with the photo. Maxeto0910 (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Identity of perpetrator

It's probably him, right? According to Der Spiegel, the perpretator's name is Taleb A: https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/magdeburg-news-autofahrer-faehrt-in-menschenmenge-behoerden-gehen-von-anschlag-aus-a-58a3c255-9a4b-45a8-8e65-8ceac63477cd. Maxeto0910 (talk) 00:33, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Why is the perpetrator parameter not added to infobox? 207.96.32.81 (talk) 00:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

"It's probably him, right?" Based on what? You found a random tweet from 2017 with an image of a passport of a guy with the same name? Brandon Downes (talk) 00:40, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Same name, same age, same nationality. Die Welt also connected this X account to him: https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article254939378/Anschlag-auf-Weihnachtsmarkt-Arzt-Islamgegner-seit-2006-in-Deutschland-Das-wissen-wir-ueber-den-Attentaeter-von-Magdeburg.html. Of course we'll have to wait until there is more clarity. However, it's still interesting. Maxeto0910 (talk) 00:43, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

If you have enough reliable sources, be WP:Bold and update the infobox. The twitter connection may be WP:Original but the name is widely sourced. 207.96.32.81 (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It's him: [9]. Saudi atheist, right winger, AfD and Musk fan. 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 00:44, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

The driver of the car was subsequently arrested. He was an anti-Christian Muslim. 190.219.101.225 (talk) 00:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

From what is being reported and if the twitter account is his then this is nonsense... he was a refugee on the basis that he was literally an ex-muslim who was critical of Islam Brandon Downes (talk) 01:17, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Ofc it's him. Nobody grants asylum to Saudis in Germany, unless they are gay or ex-Muslim. He even practices as a doctor. That's not your typical refugee. 2A02:3038:20A:EFE7:B8BB:856D:9672:D927 (talk) 01:23, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Nope, he hates muslims, and is pro Israel and supports AfD and thinks Germany wants to "Islamize Europe". Seems to be some sort of Case of internalized hatred and self radicalization and then acting upon his hatred. Midgetman433 (talk) 01:36, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Just cause he’s islamophobic doesn’t mean the attack is due to Islamophobia Cherry567 (talk) 09:14, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Source? Trust me bro? Bassimoo7 (talk) 22:02, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Off topic EvergreenFir (talk) 03:57, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
so he killed christians to fight against muslims? You're logical 2A00:A040:191:D29A:99C5:7CA1:2FC:7F5A (talk) 16:38, 21 December 2024 (UTC) Did he attack a church service, or a commercial fun-fair that is rejected as blasphemous by most Christian fundamentalists? You'll be hard-pressed to find any truly devout Christian on a German Christmas market - the majority of adults go there to get drunk, and there's more secularized Muslim immigrants to be found on these events than "real" (fundamentalist) Christians. When you consider the fact that most of the people on the Magdeburg Christmas market go to church at most twice a year (being average Germans from a region with a long-standing tradition of disregard for religious authorities), and the fact that the perp believed Germany was subverted into denying its Christian roots and needed to be "punished" for that, it makes a lot of sense why he chose this target (beyond it simply being the best opportunity to kill a lot of "dhimmis"). Even more so since commodification of religious events is something that a person who grew up in the KSA is deeply unfamiliar with - the most the Saudi regime permits in this regard is selling small vials of Zamzam water during haj. Whereas the average German Christmas market is dominated by mulled-wine stands and tchotchke sellers (with many, perhaps the majority of the latter falling into the new-age/"spiritualism" category these years; also note the left stand on the photo linked, Zum heiteren Christkind, which literally translates as "The Jolly Baby Jesus" but figuratively "The Tipsy Baby Jesus"). The Catholic Church in Germany, as well as the local Evangelicals, have criticized these events for years as bordering on blasphemy by turning a holy day into just another opportunity for commerce (and they have Scriptural precedent for that opinion). In Magdeburg, specifically, some years ago it was decided to expand the "Christmas Market" with a "World of Lights" display to attract more people with non-Christian backgrounds, just like in other German towns the "Christmas Markets" were re-named into "Winter Markets" to appear less exclusive. This development was a perennial hot topic for criticism by the right-wing influencers whom Taleb Al-Abdulmohsen followed on social media, and it would be entirely unsurprising (to those who are knowledgeable about Christianity in contemporary Germany and the New Right's relation to it) if it turns out that this self-declared atheist - who was at the same time anything but a secularist - cited this discussion as one of his motives for the attack. 2A0A:A547:22A4:0:C9BE:3FA8:1520:B410 (talk) 21:01, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 December 2024

It was a terrorist attack. 2001:1970:58AC:8700:5DD5:1E7F:A20A:86A4 (talk) 00:00, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. EvergreenFir (talk) 00:12, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It is political reasons, ergo terrorism. It would just need a RS source.Sportsnut24 (talk) 15:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Number of injured update

The latest number of injured reported by authorities has risen to 235:
"Number injured in Magdeburg attack rises to 235, prosecutors say". Yahoo News. 23 December 2024.

—79.163.180.66 (talk) 16:20, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done: number changed SolxrgashiUnited (talk) 20:43, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Viktor Orbán's response

Viktor Orbán, the prime minister of Hungary, vowed to "fight back" against open border policies after stating that there is a connection behind illegal immigration to western Europe and terrorist attacks. [57]

The cited article () doesn't seem to contain any information related to Viktor.

内存溢出的猫 (talk) 21:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

This news article seems to have been edited by someone. It is very different from what it was a day ago. SolxrgashiUnited (talk) 15:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

 Done: new citation has been added. SolxrgashiUnited (talk) 15:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

The source said nothing about illegal immigration and I've corrected it. In the source, Orban opposes migration full stop. It never said illegal once. Put it this way: if he's saying the EU politicians are allowing too many immigrants, their entrance to Europe was not illegal. I don't know if this was a subconscious transplant from the editor's own country's politics, but many European right-wing leaders aren't just going to accept Muslims just because their passports were stamped correctly. Unknown Temptation (talk) 10:05, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Punctuation fix

Punctuation fix for Heading Responses Subheading Misinformation: Other sources falsely claimed that the perpetrator had come to Germany as a Syrian refugee during the 2015 European migrant crisis.

FIX: Other sources falsely claimed that the perpetrator had come to Germany as a Syrian refugee during the 2015 European migrant crisis.

Double spacing after other, posting here due to previous IP ban and do not wish to get into trouble. EmiliaPains24 (talk) 14:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

CCTV footage

May need renamed; I forgot to enter a name when uploading it.

As with Killing of Brian Thompson, I have also obtained the CCTV footage of this incident. Should it be included? E_F⁵ 15:50, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

In my view, this would not be appropriate (WP:WIAE)

Firecat93 (talk) 19:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Why not? We also depicts Thompsons death Trade (talk) 19:32, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What encyclopedic benefit would including a video of a car ramming into a group of civilians have? The 2016 Berlin truck attack article does not have a similar video. Also, is this video publicly licensed? Firecat93 (talk) 19:41, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It's a visual representation of the attack that you don't get with just text. There was a discussion at the Thompson article, all users agreed it is encyclopedic and benefits the article. Yes, under PD-automated, we are legally allowed to host it; the Berlin one doesn't have a video because no known free video exists. See Charlottesville car attack, which has a video. E_F⁵ 20:27, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What does the video add that the phrase "a car was driven into a crowd" fails to convey? -- DeFacto (talk). 20:45, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What color was the car? How many people were standing there? What did the surrounding buildings look like? Did people start running? Did the car blow up? Did anyone fly off the hood? What direction down the road was the car moving? Did the car crash into a building? I find it interesting that nobody has an issue with the CCTV still being in the infobox, yet there's such a pushback against the video. E_F⁵ 21:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, let me rephrase that question... What, of encyclopaedic value, does the video add that could not be conveyed by adding a few words to the prose? I'm sure that those things you mentioned could all be covered in a few words if we thought they added encyclopaedic value. And BTW, I'm undecided as to whether the video adds value, which is why I'm asking the questions. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:16, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

As stated above. Most of those things likely don't have reliable sources to back them up, hence why a visual of the attack would be beneficial. And if that isn't enough, one other wiki already uses the video. E_F⁵ 21:25, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps the things that aren't covered in reliable sources are simply not relevant to the incident. Perhaps including the video is to simply pander to the ghoulish desire of some people to watch such videos, rather than to add any real value to article. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:44, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

So gore is the issue. Wikipedia is not censored. E_F⁵ 22:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What issue? How does that relate to censorship? The question here is whether that video adds value to the article, not whether Wiki policy allows it to be added to an article. If it adds encyclopaedic value then it should be added, otherwise why would we want to add it? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:39, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

It adds no value to the article. Wikipedia is not a tabloid. Firecat93 (talk) 22:44, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@Firecat93, can you imagine a situation where a video might add value to an article? -- DeFacto (talk). 23:01, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Yes, of course I can. The videos embedded in the article about the September 11 attacks add value, as 9/11 was a unique, historic, and distinctive tragedy. I would, however be opposed to adding videos of every shooting and terrorist attack. Firecat93 (talk) 23:08, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@DeFacto Videos of a distinctive natural disaster, such as a volcano eruption, would also be relevant and add value. I don't believe adding graphic videos of car rammings adds any value. Firecat93 (talk) 00:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I've given you reasons above why it should be added, and you're discounting them. "Perhaps the things that aren't covered in reliable sources are simply not relevant to the incident" makes zero sense; why don't I also go remove the CCTV still and every other photo in the article since it adds nothing. E_F⁵ 22:46, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm struggling to understand the encyclopaedic value of being able to see stuff that reliable sources don't give due weight to by including in their prose. -- DeFacto (talk). 22:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

What else is there to say? It's a video of the incident. Why shouldn't the video be in the article? Again, with the "prose" rationale, I might as well remove every single image from the article, since they can all be summed up with prose. E_F⁵ 23:07, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Per MOS:IMAGERELEVANCE (which generally appplies to videos too): each image in an article should have a clear and unique illustrative purpose. I don't think we've found that to be the case with this video yet. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:29, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I'm at 50-50 or less on including the video. The fact that it has been sourced from a shock site tells you a lot.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Where else was I supposed to get it from? News sites don't typically publish those kind of videos. Anyways, I'll step back for now as to avoid potential escalation. E_F⁵ 17:48, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Dubious Article

My god. This whoe article is - gelinde gesagt - speculation up until misinformation. Please take an example of the German Article. Until the official sources, especially prosecutors have more decisive evidence, we should not engage in political specualtion. Especially since he declared himself as a "leftist" and also hosted a website that helped migrants take money from the government with fake stories. Pastelfa (talk) 15:38, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

One of the key differences is that foreign media organizations have been able to identify Taleb Al-Abdulmohsen as the accused person, which the German media has not been allowed to do due to German privacy law. This has led to foreign news organizations examining things that he has said and done in the past. But I agree that we don't know the exact motive, which is made clear in the lead section.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 17:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

He said that as a leftist, he came to know that the left are the worst criminals on the whole planet. Theofunny (talk) 19:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

You also engaged in a blatant POV by claiming that the "SPD" (which you emphasized in the edit) interior minister described him as Islamophobe and not the authorities but she mentioned it a lot of times that the authorities can confirm and the sources do too. Theofunny (talk) 19:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

Its our Minister of Interieur and she is in this party. Which I am proud of. Soit should be reflected inthe intro, no?

Also we really have to wait till prosecutors make more information public... Pastelfa (talk) 22:22, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

He is described as a suspect and alleged attacker for this reason. The New York Times and Wall Street Journal are reliable sources. They describe the suspect as a far-right, anti-Islam activist. Firecat93 (talk) 22:52, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I can assure you, that I am closer to sources than NYT etc.

However if you want to be ridiculed, go ahead. -- Cheers Pastelfa (talk) 23:35, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

This lede has been kept after a lot of additions and removals for neutrality so you better explain your reasons behind doing so. Theofunny (talk) 19:41, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

The Wall Street Journal says "anti-Islam activist", which seems like an appropriate term to use in this article. https://www.wsj.com/world/europe/several-wounded-after-car-rams-german-christmas-market-06678562

Pastelfa, I don't know what you mean by "I can assure you, that I am closer to sources than NYT etc" but if you have better sources, let's see them.

Yaris678 (talk) 00:29, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

An "anti-Islam activist" calls himself a leftist, says Wahhabism is the only true islam and runs his car into a christian "Weihnachtsmarkt". I cant possible believe that international media is that insane and i don't want to believe that they are despicable liars. So what? Pastelfa (talk) 01:41, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

We rely on reliable sources. The suspect is an ex-Muslim and activist against Islam. He also supported the AfD. Firecat93 (talk) 01:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Taleb Al is a leftist, he says he is not on the right.[10]https://imgur.com/a/FnmuIU7

He claims that Wahhabism is the only true Islam. [11]https://imgur.com/a/lGaXQCs

He hosted a forum for asylum seekers and how to get the most "material rights" (i.e. money).[12]https://imgur.com/a/lE8PMAS Pastelfa (talk) 02:04, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I will not open links to Imgur. It is not a reliable source.

I do not wish to engage in this discussion anymore. Have a good day. Firecat93 (talk) 02:11, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

We will have to wait for better sources. Have a good Night. :-) Pastelfa (talk) 02:24, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

You as well, take care Firecat93 (talk) 02:32, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

If an individual says that, "Wahhabism is the original Islam", that does not make him a Muslim. If you find reliable sources that contradict the claims in the lead, we can discuss them. Firecat93 (talk) 02:00, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

If an individual says that "I and AfD have the common enemy" that does not make him far right. Pastelfa (talk) 02:04, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Pastelfa, I suggest you read up on original research and why it is not allowed, and on the use of WP:PRIMARY sources. Wikipedia is based on what reliable, secondary sources say. Bondegezou (talk) 10:36, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

I have changed the first sentence of article to focus on the most widely reported, and least controversial aspect. Views on the specifics of his politics (e.g. he has shared some far-right posts online, some sources describe him as far-right, some sources describe him as Islamophobic) can be covered in the Suspect section of the article. Yaris678 (talk) 12:47, 27 December 2024 (UTC)