Talk:2024 Allenby Bridge shooting

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Confusion over weapon used

Most sources I've seen ([1][2][3]) describe the weapon used as a pistol, and a lot of them are circulating the same image and crediting it to the IDF. If it really was a Kalashnikov, then the source stating that should be listed. Else, I say we change it to 'handgun', 'pistol', or whichever other term people prefer to fit the info that's been published so far. RocketsFallOnRocketFalls (talk) 20:01, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Mass shooting

@Nythar: RS did not describe the event as "mass shooting" but as "shooting attack". Makeandtoss (talk) 10:30, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I used the term "mass shooting" as a neutral descriptor, normally defined as four or more people injured and/or killed. Is it considered synthesis to use the term if it isn't explicitly mentioned in reliable sources, similar to how "massacre" is treated? Nythar (💬-🍀) 10:40, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nythar: It is synthesis, but more importantly, WP reflects RS, and RS have not used that term. Also, the victims are three, not four, when we exclude the perpetrator. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:54, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Makeandtoss: Some expansive definitions do include perpetrators (see this article's "Definitions" section as an example). I won't contest the removal of "mass shooting" on this article but I've always thought of it as a neutral term that could be used regardless of the terms reliable sources use to describe an event. "Shooting attack" is a pretty rare term that I've honestly never heard before so I would have replaced it with "shooting" if I hadn't used "mass shooting." Nythar (💬-🍀) 19:33, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is not rare: "Shooting attack at the West Bank-Jordan border crossing kills 3 Israelis. I have changed it given that you expressed you wouldn't contest its removal. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:57, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling error

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misspelling of auhtorities should be changed to authorities. Tornadoboy7 (talk) 00:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Done Cannolis (talk) 01:09, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Al-Jazy

There's a prominent Lieutenant General, Mashour Haditha Al-Jazy, from the same area who is mostly known for his participation in the Six-Day War and the Battle of Karameh. Are they related? --91.54.7.214 (talk) 07:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you find a WP:RS connecting Maher Al-Jazi, the perpetrator of the attack, to Mashour Haditha Al-Jazy, we could add it to the article. Obviously, having the same surname is not sufficient to establish a relationship. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

OR

@The Mountain of Eden: Why did you restore information from an anachronistic source to the article? If this is relevant then RS about the shooting would have reported on it, but they have not. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:24, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You lost me. Why do you think 5 months prior is "anachronistic"? And why do you think it is necessary for newspapers to report about it? Remember that Wikipedia is not a newspaper, so just because newspapers reporting on the incident would not report about something that happened 5 months prior, does not meant that for Wikipedia you wouldn't put this information as background. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 12:19, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden: Please provide RS after the incident that prove the connection between these two events, otherwise this would be original research and WP:SYNTH: "If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources. This would be improper editorial synthesis of published material to imply a new conclusion, which is original research". Makeandtoss (talk) 13:22, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see the WP:SYNTH because there is nothing to suggest that the two are related, just like there is nothing in the article to suggest that the cell that was arrested in July had anything to do with this attack. This is background regarding increased tension along the border between Israel (and by extension the territories it occupies) and Jordan. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 13:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden: That article explicitly makes the connection, unlike in this case. [4] Makeandtoss (talk) 13:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reference you cite does NOT say that there is a connection between event A (the July arrest of the cell in Salt) and event B (the attack at the Allenby Bridge in September) other than event A was not made public until event B occurred.

Just because the background section talks about Kata'ib Hezbollah's activities in Jordan does not imply there is connection to the attack. This is no different from mentioning the arrest of the cell in Salt in the background section does not imply that it's related to the attack.

The background section says that there was a desire by various actors to create an attack of this nature. Nowhere in the article does it say that the specific actor who perpetrated the attack was in any way related to Kata'ib Hezbollah. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:04, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden: I disagree; you can seek consensus for your disputed addition through WP:dispute resolution methods per WP:ONUS. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden: Pinging one more time. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:06, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am actually not the editor who put the sentence in question into the article. I have left a message] on RamHez's talk page. They would be the best person to provide a 3rd opinion on this question, if and when they do. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 15:51, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a source that discusses the possible relations between Kata'ib Hezbollah's alleged involvement in Jordan and the attack itself. https://www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/iran-update-september-8-2024 RamHez (talk) 06:31, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RamHez: A report by a hawkish neoconservative NGO that cites most of its information to Israeli military tweets and website is not a reliable source by any standard. Please demonstrate verifiability from reliable sources. All RS have described this as a lone wolf attack with no regional connections. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:42, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reference is a document by the Institute for the Study of War. I don't see them listed in WP:RSP as deprecated. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:16, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden: That is only because they were not discussed, as they would be easily considered unreliable sources after a quick look at their references section. If you disagree, please make your case at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard, as the burden and onus lies with the inserter of the material. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:54, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@RamHez:: I have removed the four sentences you added to the response section because they are not specifically related to the incident. The first sentence references events that took place 5 months prior to the incident (duplicating the sentence in the background section), with a subsequent sentence explicitly stating that it's not related. I therefore added a sentence to the background section saying that there is no evidence that Kata'ib Hezbollah was involved, even though they planned to do something. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 22:09, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why did you add a completely unsourced sentence? This is original research. Makeandtoss (talk) 08:56, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What was unsourced? The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:18, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden: "However, there were no indications that Kata'ib Hezbollah was involved in this specific attack." Also, still waiting for the demonstration of understanding war source's reliability. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's in this reference: "Jordanian Interior Minister Mazin Abdullah Hillal al Farrayeh said that the driver acted alone." The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:32, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden: Clearly, that does not mention Kataeb Hezbollah and is therefore original research. The source is also still unreliable. Kindly remove the unsourced sentence. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:54, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Driver acted alone" = "Kata'ib Hezbollah was not involved". The Mountain of Eden (talk) 14:58, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@The Mountain of Eden: WP guidelines are clear: “ "A and B, therefore, C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument concerning the topic of the article. If a single source says "A" in one context, and "B" in another, without connecting them, and does not provide an argument of "therefore C", then "therefore C" cannot be used in any article.” Makeandtoss (talk) 15:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have added that the source is the Jordanian Interior Minister. The Mountain of Eden (talk) 15:20, 17 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Residents of Israeli settlements"

So, settlers. Why the extra verbiage? They were Israeli settlers. 76.71.115.185 (talk) 23:21, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]