Talk:2023 Haryana riots

Information not in source

@Plumeater2: you added Two Home officers, Home Guard Neeraj s/o Chiranjee Lal and Home Guard Gursev s/o Sensi Singh were killed by the far right Muslim mob. Reports indicate that one of them was shot to death. using this source. The source does say that two home officers were killed, but I don't see where the source that they were killed by a "far right Muslim mob". Can you explain? VR _talk 18:11, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Based on their recent edits, I highly recommend Plumeater2 not to make any changes in the article before acheiving a consensus here on this talk page. Ferialnusla (talk) 12:01, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Sourced information removed

@Plumeater2: can you please explain why you removed this information that was sourced to CBS News, The Independent both of which are reputable sources? VR _talk 18:15, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

repeated information, biased wording, broken references and broken links. its a poorly written paragraph, and reeks of agenda editing. not up to wikipedia standards Plumeater2 (talk) 18:16, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Can you explain how it is biased? Which references and links are broken? When a link is broken, you fix the link, not remove the entire paragraph.VR _talk 18:18, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

The violence started when right-wing Hindu groups, Bajrang Dal (BD) and Vishwa Hindu Parishad]] (VHP), lead a religious procession through the Muslim-majority Nuh district; the Muslim community was angered when it was announced that the procession would be joined by a man wanted by police in the murder of two Muslims. The Hindu procession was pelted with stones by a mob; in retaliation it threw stones back. Two police personnel were shot dead in the ensuing violence.

bold is already mentioned, the link to VHP is broken, two random ]] are left there.

link #2 is not formatted correctly {{cite news}}: Empty citation (help): Text "publisherCBS News" ignored (help)

Use of passive voice for the Hindu mob being attacked, then active voice for their retaliation " The Hindu procession was pelted with stones by a mob; in retaliation it threw stones back"

"the Muslim community was angered when it was announced that the procession would be joined by a man wanted by police in the murder of two Muslims"

this is missing context, the context being that the man wasn't even at the procession, so this seems like deliberately leaving out information to form a narrative Plumeater2 (talk) 18:29, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

The links stuff is super easy to fix, as I just did[1][2]. Regarding "already mentioned", please realize the WP:LEAD is a summary of the article, so it will definitely include information already contained in the rest of the article.

Regarding the man not being at the procession, we can include it either in the lead or in the article. I haven't seen any RS mention it so not sure if its WP:DUE for the lead. Can you find some RS for this?VR _talk 18:34, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

https://www.financialexpress.com/india-news/who-is-monu-manesar-how-this-gau-rakshak-is-linked-to-communal-strife-in-haryanas-nuh-bkg/3195290/

Despite posting the video, Manesar reportedly said that he was not present during the Nuh religious march. A PTI report said that Manesar has repeatedly denied participation in the Yatra that was organised by Bajrang Dal and VHP. Monu Manesar or Mohit Yadav is notorious for posting videos of cow vigilantism.

He wasn't there, so at the very least that should be added.

The active vs passive voice needs to be fixed as well. Either put them both in the same voice or remove it. Plumeater2 (talk) 18:39, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Sure, you can add that (again I'm not sure if its WP:DUE, but we'll flesh that out later, as the article is still evolving). And you can change the active/passive thing too.VR _talk 18:41, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Please stop using sources linked to Opindia

Plumeater2 I have seen you use sources that quote Opindia as a source. In this edit, you use this source which is basically a republish of an Opindia article. This is not appropriate, see WP:OPINDIA.VR _talk 18:39, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

removed Plumeater2 (talk) 18:42, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Vandalizm

user @119.157.76.207 seems to be removing any information he doesn't like, usually without justification. in this edit he removes a source that is not banned by wikipedia, only stating "use quality sources". This is very clearly against decorum, and bordering on vandalism and advocacy Plumeater2 (talk) 19:05, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

Please acquire consensus here before using low quality sources in the article. 119.157.76.207 (talk) 19:16, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

The sources are not low quality, nor do "low quality" sources require a census. So long as the source is not banned on wikipedia, or proven to be unreliable it is permissible. Removing information you do not like is advocacy, and is against wikipedia policy. Plumeater2 (talk) 19:17, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

@Plumeater2: sources should be reliable as per WP:RS. The sources you are using indeed seem low-quality. For example, you used this source rom thepressunited.com that explicitly blames Muslims for the attacks. By contrast, most high quality sources, including Western sources and The Hindu (a high quality Indian newspaper) have not done so (for example, see The Hindu's coverage). This is because while it is easy to ascertain the identity of the victims, it is not as easy to ascertain the identity of the perpetrators so quickly. I have never heard of thepressunited.com, but a quick glance shows it contains articles with headlines like "[French] police kill Muslim criminal"[3]. Why don't you find more mainstream sources? This story is getting international attention and hence there is no shortage of high quality sources.VR _talk 19:44, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

I cited the wire, which explicitly used the term "muslim mob" more than once. Every single news portal is reporting the attacking mob to be muslim. there is no possible dispute about their identity.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/communal-violence-during-yatra-in-nuh-2-killed-internet-snapped-101690830050854.html Plumeater2 (talk) 19:49, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

The Hindustantimes source says "Kamal Gupta, a devotee, said the temples were Hindus were taking shelter were attacked by Muslim groups." So on wikipedia we'd need to write this as "the Hindu procession alleged it was attacked by Muslim groups". But something like that is already in the lead. We can't write it in wikivoice, when the source itself doesn't write it in its own voice.VR _talk 19:57, 1 August 2023 (UTC)

References

One-sided edits

Plumeater2 your edits appear to push a particular POV. You seem bent on blaming Muslims for the violence and minimizing the two-sided nature of the riots. For example, in this edit you changed,

A Muslim mob attacked the Hindu religious procession passing through; and the Hindus threw stones back.

to

A Muslim mob attacked the Hindu religious procession passing through with stones and bottles.

But The Independent article cited says "People who were part of the procession retaliated by throwing stones at the mob, which aggravated the violence."

So why did you remove that?VR _talk 17:41, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

This conversation is a perfect example of the one-sided nature of Wiki moderators, actually. This article uses the term "Hindu mob" 3 times. But Muslim mobs are only referred to as "mobs". Not surprisingly, plumeater gets blocked, smh. Liberalvedantin (talk) 17:56, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Not in source given

C1MM you added to the article:

The Muslim mob killed two Hindu civilians, one of whom was a participant in the procession and another who was a bystander. Two police personnel were also killed by the mob.

With this source at the end.

The source does not mention a "Muslim mob", nor does it say that Muslims killed Hindu civilians and police personnel. The source says

Three people, including two Home guards, were killed in Nuh...

But does not appear to identify the perpetrators, let alone identify their religion.VR _talk 17:48, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

plumeater2 you restored[4] the info that doesn't appear in The Hindu.VR _talk 17:59, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Original research

Plumeater2 you added "Cyber police stations deal with online crimes such can hacking and scamming, for which Nuh is a hotspot. Police had opened up the cyber station recently and have resisted more than 28,000 cases against residents of Nuh." The three sources you give in that edit, all predate the riots and are actually from May 2023. Connecting them to the current riots, without a reliable source, is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH.VR _talk 18:30, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it is given as a background, It is not connected to the riot. I can move it to the background section, but I believe it proves context as to what might have motivated the attack on the cyber police station. If a consensus arises to remove it it can be removed Plumeater2 (talk) 18:33, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

"I believe it proves..." Please review WP:OR. You need RS to make the connection and without that, its original research.VR _talk 18:35, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

typo, meant *provides* Plumeater2 (talk) 18:36, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Again, you can't make claims about the motives of the perpetrators without a reliable source.VR _talk 18:57, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

alright, I'll move it to the background section then Plumeater2 (talk) 19:06, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Add Islamists destroyed temple and looted Hindus

pinging @Extorc@Aviram7@DaxServer, this article is based in Lead ...

Attacked temple

• https://youtu.be/6WjnQ4ldVnw by India Today
• https://youtu.be/FUqMRUEnf3I by NDTV

Looted Hindu

• https://youtu.be/8LiCpkVkv8M by The Lallantop

103.251.217.174 (talk) 15:11, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Please, avoid canvassing. If you think any information is missing then state it clearly with proper reliable sources. Ferialnusla (talk) 11:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

POV

This is perhaps the most egregious example of Agenda editing I’ve seen on wikipedia. This article has been besiged in the past 24 hours and all mentions of the fact that the mob that attacked the Hindu procession have been removed. This entire article erases the fact that three Hindus were killed, the header “Two home officers, namely Home Guard Neeraj Khan and Home Guard Gursev, lost their lives. Subsequently, in response to the clashes, a 22-year-old deputy imam of a Gurugram mosque named Mohammad Saad was also fatally attacked by a group of Hindu individuals. Furthermore, several other individuals who had taken shelter in the mosque sustained serious injuries.“ exclusively lists non-Hindu casualties. That’s an obvious WP:NPOV. Additionally, far undue weight is given to the VHP, and BD. It reads as though they are at fault for being attacked because they held a religious procession. WP needs to have neutral point of view, and this article seems to try and indite them for holding a religious procession. The intro sentence “ On Monday, July 31, communal violence erupted in the Nuh district of Haryana during a Braj Mandal Yatra organized by Hindu nationalist groups, including Vishva Hindu Parishad (VHP)” is completely absurd. The reality on the ground is that the procession was attacked by a well armed and prepared militia, a fact that has been removed from the article’s intro.

This is a blatantly untrue sentence, this was just shoddy reporting by thr wire, ->“Nuh Temple Priest disputes the claim that people were 'held hostage' at the Nalhar Mahadev temple”. the priest stated in an interview “ Speaking to The Indian Express, Sharma said, “The violence started growing and by 4 PM, our temple had at least 3,000 to 4,000 people taking shelter in the courtyard…it was very difficult to reassure them that they will be safe inside the temple as they thought some or the other miscreant might break in and start targeting them…” https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/priest-recalls-how-a-temple-sheltered-hundreds-in-nuh-8873905/

Monu Manesar is mentioned three times in the intro, Nasir and Junaid twice. Muslims who were killed months ago are mentioned more in the intro than the three Hindus who were lynched in this riot. Additionally wording like “notorious” is clearly against wikipedia policy.

The header doesn’t make mention the destruction in the immediate aftermath of the riots, where Muslims ransacked Hindu shops, cars, and business. 107.115.33.66 (talk) 18:16, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

It has been mentioned already in the article. Ferialnusla (talk) 11:50, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Unethically edited Wikipedia page.

This is basically a biased page created in order to defame demonize one religious community. 203.115.84.243 (talk) 04:44, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

List specifics and if a consensus is reached the page will be edited. Plumeater2 (talk) 02:09, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Disruptive editing by User:Pirate of the High Seas

User:Pirate of the High Seas seems to be engaging in bad faith editing. After I made some additions to the page, he in this edit tried to undo many of them with a misleading edit summary. stating " Shortened lead as per MOS:LEAD. Details are already in the body". However, a quick look at the difference between the previous edit and his reveals that he undid much more than the edit, and in many instances deleted well sourced sentences and introduced WP:POV wording, such as "notorious". He also removed recent information I added regarding casualties. When I noticed that he tried to slip in this misleading edit, I left a message on his page, assuming the best, that he had simply made a mistake, and offered a constructive criticism of his edit. He responded to this by reverting all my edits here.

Once again, I will try and assume good faith, if Pirate of the High Seas (talk) can explain why he reverted every single one of my edits, I'd be happy to listen. Otherwise, this seems like its disruptive editing. Plumeater2 (talk) 09:30, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Please, reach a consensus before making edits like this[5]. You have been warned by at least 2 admins. Please respect the policies of Wikipedia. If you feel anything is wrong then first discuss it here. Thank you. Ferialnusla (talk) 11:49, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Leaving a note here regarding an edit of mine; While it is due to mention the affiliations of Monu Manesar as reported in RS, it is undue to repeat them every time we refer to him. Ive kept a mention in lead and background, removed elsewhere. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 16:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Lack of information

1. The context is missing. Haryana right wing Hindutvadis from Bajrang Dal and Vishva Hindu Parishad preparing to create riot which has been reported by several media outlets since 2022. See:

1. At Haryana Panchayat, Hindutva Leaders Call for 'Economic Boycott' of Muslims, The Wire;
2. At panchayat in Manesar, call goes out for ‘economic boycott’ of Muslim shopkeepers, The Indian Express;
3. Haryana Nuh Violence: Mahapanchayat called in Manesar amid escalating tensions, Livemint;
4. Bhiwani killings: 2 more ‘Hindu Mahapanchayats’ call for anti-Muslim violence and many many more are available since 2021.

• This particular CNN coverage[6] specifically mentions the train incident where a RPF personnel specifically killed only Muslim passengers based on their appearnces showing how communal hatred has been deeply rooted. Also covered by the Hindu[7], Hindusthan Times[8], Ground Report[9] etc.

2. Aftermath is missing which should state that the Muslim owned properties were vandalised, torched and looted as reported by several mainstream media:

1. Mobsters target Muslim trade in Gurugram,
2. At least 14 shops, mostly run by Muslim men torched, vandalised in Gurugram's Badshahpur,
3. Miscreants vandalise shops of Muslim traders in Panipat, 25 booked,
4. Muslims in fear in India’s Gurugram after attacks on mosque, businesses,
5. Uttarkashi: Cross marks, “leave” threats on Muslim shops, hatred spreads to other towns: Uttarakhand and many many more are available on Google search.

• Please, present all information to the readers without hiding/supressing and avoiding biased/original researches of individual wikipedia editors. From edit history, it seems biased editors from both sides are trying to push their own narratives. This requires an experts attention because this article is being used in other blogs and social media as proof to spread further tensions among the people. Regards, Thaila Belbase.

Neutrality tag

I spot-checked a single source, this one, and found multiple instances where it did not support the text it was cited for. Moreover, the pieces failing verification carry a strong POV. As such I'm tagging this until the content has been rewritten such that it no longer fails WP:VOICE. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:51, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Here's an example: the lead says "a Muslim mob initiated an attack on the procession", and terms actions by Hindus "retaliatory"; the source does not say any of that in its own voice, instead attributing statements to the police and the home minister. The source also says nothing about the mob throwing stones and bottles; it says both sides did so, but again attributes that to a resident. And all of this is just from the first source I checked. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:14, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Hi, sorry for that, the article got locked to autoconfirmed which blocked many of the active contributors on this article, including me lol. I have fixed the issue by rewriting the riots section. Hopefully, a good lead will be written from it soon. Imaginie (talk) 18:33, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

This article is a shitshow atm. Thanks @Vanamonde93 for looking into this — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 19:39, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

@DaxServer: I'm not likely to have a ton of time, so the more eyes on this the better...Vanamonde (Talk) 20:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Priests POV

As of now, there are two viewpoints, the wire/quint, which seems to be taking a quote out of context that argues that that the priest disputed being besieged, and priest, who to the Indian express, states that he was. Plumeater2 (talk) 17:07, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

From what the preist said, he stated that they were not hostages ("bandhak"), but they had to shelter inside the temple and stay there due to violence. Could you share the Indian express source that contradicts this Plumeater2? Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:19, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/delhi/priest-recalls-how-a-temple-sheltered-hundreds-in-nuh-8873905/

" We began serving the bhandara since the morning…our temple can accommodate 9,000 people and we were even willing to accept more people for refuge as long as they were safe"

" All of them were scared and anxious as intense stone- pelting and vandalism was happening a few kilometres away…we kept telling people that nothing will happen to them as long as they are inside the temple …all of them were eventually rescued by 6 pm Tuesday"

" The violence started growing and by 4 PM, our temple had at least 3,000 to 4,000 people taking shelter in the courtyard…it was very difficult to reassure them that they will be safe inside the temple as they thought some or the other miscreant might break in and start targeting them"

In these tree quotes the priest illustrates that

1. They could not leave the temple

2. They were in fear of being targeted in the temple

3. They had to be rescued by the police

The wire on the other hand quotes the priest saying "(How is it possible to keep these people hostage? They were in the shelter of the almighty. But suddenly they got to know that the situation outside is not good. Since the situation outside became bad, people got trapped inside (the temple)"

The first part seems more a religious statement, in his faith in God. In the sentence afterwards he clarifies they were trapped inside the temple. That seems pretty hostage like to me.

This doesn't feel like a refutation of the hostage claim at all. However, I think the best way forward is to simply include the testimony of the priest. it is highly relevant, and as there are conflicting sources, its best to include. Plumeater2 (talk) 17:34, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Seems like this was implemented already, looks okay Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 18:48, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Captain, I don't know the rationality of having this statement in the article: According to The Wire the Nuh temple priest disputes the claim that people were "held hostage" at the Nalhar Mahadev temple, in a supposed counterweight to these earlier statements: at around 14:00, roughly 2,500 Hindus including BD and VHP members fled to a nearby Nulhar Mahadev temple for shelter. While in the temple they were attacked by the mob, who shot at them with guns, and pelted stones. They were surrounded in the temple by the rioters for about five hours before police reinforcement from five districts were able to rescue them, when the same Wire article quotes the priest saying that people got trapped inside from the violence outside. Neither does Wikipedia nor any news article say that they were held hostage. Why did the Wire journalists ask an invalid question to the priest? Imaginie (talk) 17:53, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Im trying to sort through the issues, the article is quite a mess rn. Will look into it. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 18:42, 7 August 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 September 2023

Add a mention of MLA Mamman Khan and how Home Minister Anil Vij has accused him of his involvement with the 2023 Haryana Riots Ah507 (talk) 21:24, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ARandomName123 (talk)^{Ping me!} 22:16, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

https://theprint.in/india/haryana-cow-vigilantes-indulging-in-hooliganism-in-mewat-allege-cong-mlas-in-assembly/1390780/

https://indianexpress.com/article/cities/chandigarh/mamman-khan-nuh-haryana-anil-vij-congress-8914573/

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/haryana/nuh-violence-case-congress-mla-mamman-khan-fails-appear-before-sit-540079

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/gurgaon/haryana-congress-mla-mamman-khan-arrested-in-nuh-violence-case/articleshow/103680121.cms?from=mdr

https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/nuh-violence-congress-mla-mamman-khan-granted-interim-bail/article67376725.ece

You can refer to these articles above, there are more articles refering to the incidents related to MLA Mamman Khan in relation to the incident. Ah507 (talk) 10:50, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done : Please state your changes in a "change x to y" format next time. I've put this under the premeditation section. Aaron Liu (talk) 17:24, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 1 November 2023

Mention the accusation made by Haryana's Home Minister, Anil Vij upon Ferozepur Jhirka MLA, Mamman Khan in the 2023 Haryana Riots.

Sources mentioned here

Also, mention statements released by the regional politicians on the riots

"Who gave weapons to participants in the procession? Who goes to yatris with sticks and swords? This is wrong." - Rao Inderjeet Singh

"I was in touch with the police and even mentioned that the videos were causing unrest,”- Nuh MLA Aftab Ahmed

On Nuh violence, the former MLA said that the government has completely failed in this entire matter.- Former Nuh MLA Habib Ur Rehman (Original source in Hindi)

Punahana MLA Mohd Ilyas said the yatra was an annual feature and there was no history of any conflict.

“However, these videos had been inciting the Meos for four days before the procession,” - Punahana MLA Mohammed Ilyas

BJP leader Zakir Hussain, a former MLA from Nuh, agreed that it was a conspiracy to bring a bad name to Mewat, he said it was the handiwork of outsiders from both sides. “The administration had a peace meeting on July 27 and both communities agreed to let the procession proceed peacefully. It was when outsiders jumped in that the clashes took place,” he stated, adding that fringe elements were disturbed about the many announcements made by CM Manohar Lal Khattar recently and wanted to derail the development of the area. Ah507 (talk) 12:00, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

References

Deactivating edit request as nobody has been willing to review it in more than a month. Your request would likely be reviewed faster if you specified the exact wikitext to add instead of requiring the reviewer to synthesize eleven sources and write content themselves. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 03:02, 1 December 2023 (UTC)