Talk:2023 European Weightlifting Championships

Nagorno-Karabakh political status

Regarding your recent edit @Interfase:, this article is about weightlifting championship, not a place for politicising an incident into a scandal and giving it undue weight, and certainly not a place for complex wordings about intricacies of Nagorno-Karabakh political status. Let’s keep it concise, streamlined and cyclopedic, please. In addition, the political status is already explained in the blockade article (in a more extensive manner), there exists no encyclopedic value to mention the political status of Nagorno-Karabakh in a weightlifting championship article. Thanks. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 21:34, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

This championship is already widely known because of this incident thanks to Nikolyan, so it can be mentioned in a widely manner. Nikolyan already politicised this incident into a scandal. Also the information about the blockade should be given as per source not as per original interpretation of Wikipedia user. And of course we should add the valuable information about the statement of Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Youth and Sports[1], which said that the incident showed that “when such an atmosphere of hatred reigns in Armenia, security is not ensured, the normal participation of Azerbaijani athletes in competitions is impossible due to psychological pressure.” It is based on the secondary source and is important on understanding of the reason of Azerbaijan's recall. --Interfase (talk) 21:58, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Not everything that glitters is gold and not everything in the source should be on encyclopaedia page about weightlifting championship. For this article, it’s an isolated incident and should be treated as such - Azerbaijan recalled, federation condemned, man got detained. This is an encyclopaedia entry about a weightlifting championship and incidents should be kept laconic. NKR status is explained in the wikilinked article, clearly and in a more extensive manner. I’m afraid the things you are insisting on are what Wikipedia is not [2], see section WP:NOTEVERYTHING. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 17:53, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I do not claim to add all information about the incident, just valuable. The reason of recall published by Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Youth and Sports is valuable information as I think. --Interfase (talk) 14:42, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you read what Wikipedia is not? It’s not a place for promoting political narratives, neither a place for scandal mongering. Extremely negative views of Azerbaijan on Armenia / Armenians are well known, but this article about weightlifting championship is not a place for them. Same for NKR political status - there are articles about it, this article is about a sport championship, so let’s keep it concise and to the point please. Thanks. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 20:20, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Did you read what I wrote or not? The statement of Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Youth and Sports is closely related to the championship. So it is completely ally with the principles of Wikipedia. Armenian designer is a person who promoted political narratives in this championship. Thanks to him this championship is well known due to this incident as well. And readers should know the reason why one of the participants refuced to took part on this championship, due to hatred reigns in Armenia against Azerbaijan and psychological pressure. It should be mentioned here. Espessialy when it is stated in RS. And of course if we mention the current situation in Nagorno-Karabakh here we should give the brief and short history as well, so we should mention that this region was captured by Armenian forces in 1994 and was returned by Azerbaijan in 2020, or remove the information about the blockade. Interfase (talk) 07:01, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

1. I read what you wrote. Azerbaijan's government derogatory political statements against Armenia and scandal mongering aren't valuable in an encyclopedia article about a weightlifting championship, again SEE WP:NOTEVERYTHING. I do not see convincing arguments about the "valuability" of the pushed sentence, but I see signs of Wikipedia:I just like it.

2. Now that we heard condemnations from Azerbaijan, Armenia and European Weightlifting Association, that can be summarised in a single sentence, we have to keep Incidents section concise to avoid giving it undue coverage compared to the rest of the article. This is not a bazaar - blockade is relevant, as the incident is reported in the context of recent animosity. What was happening before blockade, such as the NKR status and wars, or the medieval Armenia and Albania, are well covered in the relevant articles already, no need for forking stuff.

3. Finally, aside from your recent edit-wars and reverts hiding the blockade [3], [4], you were also quick to revert a text in the article despite being notified of relevant policies after you reverted earlier 3 times in a day [5], [6], [7]. I respectfully ask you to stop owning the section you created, thanks. KhndzorUtogh (talk) 12:30, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

This incident is not related to blockade and it is not relevant to this article. If someone wants to add this information to the article, the common scope about the wars between two countries also should be added to give the brief information. But the statement of the Azerbaijan’s Ministry of Youth and Sports is relevant as they published the main reason of recall their country from the championship and it is reported in the context of incident. There is no nt violations of WP:NOTEVERYTHING here. --Interfase (talk) 17:07, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

You've tried to hide the blockade 3 times already

[8],

[9],

[10],

despite several editors clearly disagreeing with you and restoring the information - that's far from consensus you claim to have here, in fact it's the opposite.

You don't have consensus as 3 separate users including me have either restored the blockade information or commented on talk explaining why. I agree with @KhndzorUtogh that the most recent blockade is very relevant as the incident is reported with this context by various reliable sources. I even added additional citations distinct from KhndzorUtogh to indicate this, not just the blockade at the lachin but fighting around lachin in general. We could work on abbreviating the info but it's relevant as indicated by multiple reliable sources.

If you hide this information again, you might be reported - please start to WP:LISTEN and please don't edit-war. Humanatbest (talk) 17:59, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no any consensus related to the information about the situation around Karabakh. This information is not related to this championship and you can see that other users did not reach any consensus on that. So, please stop POV-pushing and edit warring. In case if the disputed information will be disclosed by you again you might be reported due to edit warring and POV-pushing. Interfase (talk) 09:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

If  "the information is not related “ to this incident, as you keep claiming,  why are reliable sources reporting it as a related fact? Your personal opinions cannot trump the information reported by RS. The only one engaging in edit-warring seems to be you here and you are clearly pushing your own POV with total disregard of wikipedia quidelines. Vanezi (talk) 11:21, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

RS did not reported that Nikolyan burned the flag due to the situation on Karabakh. Nikolyan said that he just did not was to see this flag raised in Yerevan. This is typical Azerbaijanophobia. Media just give the brief information about the resent issues. In Wikipedia we have specific articles about those cases. Yes, we can give this information here, but user above was against to give the information about the wars between Azerbaijan and Armenia and I agreed that in this case there is no any relevant reason to give information about the situation on Lachin-Khankendi highway as well. It is not related to the championship. --Interfase (talk) 12:31, 24 April 2023 (UTC)

The media reported the incident in the context of recent developments means the media reported the incident in the context of recent developments, nothing more and nothing less.  Media does not "just give the brief information about the resent issues", they give that information as the journalists (not me or you) think it provides relevant background for the incident, and we rely on secondary sources on Wikipedia. The GlobalVoices article, e.g., reports the flag burning in the context of other  recent signs of rising tensions between Armenia and Azerbaijan – border clashes, Lachin corridor blockade, prisoners, etc.  

"Nikolyan said that he just did not want to see the flag raised in Yerevan =  Azerbaijanophobia" is your interpretation, and not what WP:RS say – may I advise not to engage in WP:OR and advocacy here (WP:NOT) please. Without providing the context of recent developments, it looks like you want/believe the incident to look like as an out-of-blue hateful act, but the RS do not see it as such – that is why they provide the larger picture, which you unfortunately keep hiding.

If you think protecting your version by constant edit warring and not listening to what everyone else is saying is how you achieve consensus on Wikipedia I am afraid you are simply mistaken. Vanezi (talk) 08:55, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

"that is why they provide the larger picture, which you unfortunately keep hiding" - they provide the larger picture about the two wars between Azerbaijan and Armenia as well, but user KhndzorUtogh removed this from the article[11]. In that case we cannot left only one part of information only about the blockade or resent clashes. The larger picture starts from 1990s. And of course Wkipedia shall not copy everything that was reported by media. It should be related to the championship or directly to the incident. In that case there is no any evidence that the situation in Karabakh motivated Nikolyan to burn the flag of the country, which security was guarantied by Armenian government. --Interfase (talk) 00:29, 27 April 2023 (UTC)