Talk:2020 Sweden riots

Note

See https://rmx.news/article/article/two-migrant-background-men-torture-and-rape-two-boys-in-sweden-for-nearly-10-hours . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.48.238.18 (talk) 11:47, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Not sure how much something like "RMX News" can be trusted. Other sources for this include similarly unreliable The Sun, OpIndia etc. The oldest English piece I could find on this is from Daily Mail (unreliable, see WP:DAILYMAIL), which doesn't say anything about the "migrant background" of the suspects and that's unusual because Daily Mail isn't the type of newspaper to "hide" something like that. The piece does cite an Aftonbladet (seems reliable) article, which links to another article on the same website. Through Google translate, I could find that the victims were minors, but it too doesn't say anything about the suspects being "migrant background". Also, I don't see any reliable sources that this incident had anything to do with the riots, only some people on social media repeating this without any concrete sources. The Observer says Paludan wanted to give an "anti-Islamic" speech, Indian Express says the speech was about Islamisation of Nordic countries. Nothing indicates Paludan's event had any direct connection with the abduction and rape of minor boys by suspects who may or may not be Muslim migrants. Regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 12:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello TryKid, thank you for the insightful comment. I am unsure as to the complete reliability of these news sources, but this particular article by RMX news seems to be reliable enough (also, RMX news isn't blacklisted by Wikipedia). In my opinion, this news event should be mentioned on this Wikipedia page, but the way in which it is mentioned should represent a neutral point of view (e.g. "these events may be linked"). I appreciate the effort you are putting into this Wikipedia page. Regards, Angry Red Hammer Guy (talk) 19:53, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@Angry Red Hammer Guy: but that source doesn't link the two at all. We don't have any ability to say they may be linked. No post hoc ergo propter hoc. Additionally, only a few sources are depreciated, and fewer still blacklisted. That does not make it reliable. WP:RSN doesn't seem to have a judgement Nosebagbear (talk) 20:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@Nosebagbear:Good point. Angry Red Hammer Guy (talk) 20:58, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Undue

It seems really undue in the lead to write witnesses heard shouts of 'Allah U Akbar' and La ilaha ilallah. One of the sources that says this, also says A maximum of five of them are Muslim. But for some reason that's not in the lead.VR _talk 05:43, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

The information about the slogans is supported by multiple other WP:RS, including The Local and United Press International. By the context in the Guardian article, the 'maximum of five' quote seems to be either a hyperbole or an inferential statement 'gatekeeping their muslimhood,' as evident from the words after: "Because a real Muslim doesn’t do this." The statements about the slogans, however, appear to be direct witness reportage. I feel like that information should stay on the page, although I wouldn't be against removing it from the subject article if there are reasonable arguments. LΞVIXIUS💬 04:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

References

As Levixius writes, there are multiple WP:RS who support these eyewitness accounts. Also, if the problem was undue because it was in the lead, the informatoin could have been moved to the Incidents in Malmö section. Instead it was deleted and now none of the WP:RS who state this aren't neutrally represented becaues they are instead neglected. The article is actually worse now. A Thousand Words (talk) 05:06, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that this information appears in WP:RS. But this article is filled with quotes from those surrounding the event (many of them witnesses), including the 'maximum of five' quote. Putting in one quote to the exclusion of all others seems to elevate one POV above other.VR _talk 05:08, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I've explained why that is not the case. LΞVIXIUS💬 06:26, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The full context of the Allah Akbar in this source and this source is Those who are acting in this way have nothing to do with Islam. Their shouts filled with ‘la ilaha ill Allah’ and ‘Allahu Akbar’, are just outbursts that they do not mean, because if they really meant them, they wouldn’t have acted like this.. If you are going to include one, then also include the other.VR _talk 07:39, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Once again, you're convoluting the difference between an observation a hyperbolic inference. Those two statements are not the same and don't hold the same weight, so you're falsely equating the two.LΞVIXIUS💬 15:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I strongly agree with VR, in that the selection is prone to distortion since its mention weighs too much within the article, disproportionally to its meaning in the context from which it comes. The further information might make it more objective. I'd choose to ommit all. My second choice would be to make it more complete, as suggested

The fact that they hold different weights corroborates this. The mention of the shouts alone has disproportional weight, in the sense of inducing highly consequential conclusions which have no support in the source text, thus making the article potentially misleading. This risk in itself might justify the revision, since the subject is highly controversial and polarized HM7Me (talk) 14:59, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Non-neutral statement

This statement the far left, who wishes to destabilize society, doesn't sound neutral. Is there anyone making that allegation? Then it should be attributed.VR _talk 13:28, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@1Kwords:, I've removed all content cited to Norra Skåne opinion piece. "Far left wishes to destabilise society" is not a neutral statement and opinion pieces in tabloids are not reliable sources. Regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 13:48, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Have the riots ended?

This source says the riots have petered out, but its also 2 days old.VR _talk 06:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

OR?

This edit sources an article the predates the riots. Obviously that reliable source can have no knowledge of this current event. We need a reliable source to connect events in and before 2019 to the riots in 2020, without such a source this is original research.VR _talk 13:42, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Vice regent, It is about the resentment the Swedes were/are feeling.—Dr2Rao (talk) 17:22, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

How is that connected to the topic of this article?VR _talk 17:26, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

That resentment has led to the burning of the Qur'an which in turn lead to the riots.—Dr2Rao (talk) 17:28, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Vice regent, TryKid, Angry Red Hammer Guy, Nosebagbear, 1Kwords, Levixius, we should add that by consensus.—Dr2Rao (talk) 17:43, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

this article (currently cite [10]) provides a background on immigration in Sweden in context of the 2020 riots. Maybe it'll be useful for you. If it isn't enough, try to find other reliable sources that connect the immigration in Sweden to the riots. Google Translate feature in Chrome can help with searching and understanding Swedish sources. I don't have any opinions on this though, Dr2Rao. Regards, TryKid ^{[dubious – discuss]} 18:12, 4 September 2020 (UTC)