Talk:2020 California wildfires/Archive 1

Archive 1

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 3 September 2020 and 16 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Magicccfff. Peer reviewers: SafeSorry, Prude.rager01, Axolotl21.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 September 2020 and 6 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Muzizimu.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 16:39, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

COVID-19 implications of evacuation orders

California's wildfire evacuation policy to keep access roads clear for emergency vehicles would seem to run contrary to the stay at home travel restrictions imposed to limit COVID-19 infection. It would be helpful to describe California state coordination of these two issues with respect to evacuation center protocols. Thewellman (talk) 14:11, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

@Thewellman:, you bring up a very good point. As the fire season progresses, the complications of having high-occupancy evacuation centers opened alongside the COVID-19 risk should be perhaps an additional paragraph citing those nuanced complications during the 2020 fire season-- or perhaps even have its own fully-fledged article dedicated to that topic. I'll look into articles relating those two issues and perhaps write an additional column here about that. We might have already seen those complication come into effect due to more major incidents like the recent Apple Wildfire that threatening well over 7,800 residence and likely caused the evacuation of as many. Dripwoods (talk) 04:31, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Anticipating parallel problems with the Atlantic hurricane season, I've drafted an early version of a comprehensive article as Emergency evacuation procedures during the COVID-19 pandemic. I will be looking for additional sources as the situation unfolds, and I encourage others to edit this article. Thewellman (talk) 21:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Jones Fire, Nevada County

Why is the Jones Fire, Nevada County not covered? Is the affected area too small?

It receives some attention through Juan Browne.

--Mortense (talk) 19:34, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm late but it has only burned 725 acres of land, the fires listed there are 1,000 acres or more. I like hurricanes (talk) 18:27, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Meyers Fire, Sonoma County

For reasons known only to CAL FIRE, the Meyers Fire on the ocean-side of Sonoma County has been lumped in with the gigantic LNU fire that is way over in the middle of Napa County. It's not helping anyone to remove info on this fast-moving fire (50 to 3,000 acres in one day) on account of that somewhat disingenuous technicality. I tried...someone deleted...Done Here. Maybe we can lump all the fires into just one name and call it a day...?

P.S. The Meyers Fire has shut down the PCH (Route 1)...so it's a bit more important, info-wise, than say 1,000-acre-ish fires somewhere in the foothills of San Diego. This article needs a dose of common sense if it's going to actually be useful to anyone. --104.15.130.191 (talk) 19:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

WORST IN HISTORY!

I'm working on edits to remove "worst in history" style language; and replace these with language that will better survive changes in historical context. For example, these events, while terrible, have articles in neutral language

Great Chicago Fire, 1906_San_Francisco_earthquake

whereas more contemporary articles like

Camp_Fire_(2018), 2020 California wildfires, September_2020_Western_United_States_wildfires

suffer from edits that assume 2018 or 2020 as the end of history. Help?

See also Neutral_point_of_view

Mmcdougall (talk) 16:09, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

Was the Dolan Fire caused by lightning or arson?

I saw some sources saying the Dolan Fire was caused by arson and updated the article accordingly. However, IodinePi (talk · contribs) changed the article back to say it was caused by lightning. Do we know for sure that lightning was the cause? Or are we waiting for the NWCG page to be updated? Ixfd64 (talk) 06:35, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

It looks like some sources are claiming the fire may have been an arson, but inciweb still lists the cause as "unknown" and the PD says the case for arson is "developing" so unless someone can provide proof it was lightning-sparked or there is more proof of arson there should be no listed cause imo. And no, we don't know for sure if lightning is the cause (yet) Luofbi (talk) 03:38, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

As an update, there is a news report out of California that a person has been arrested for arson in connection to the Dolan fire. See https://www.mercedsunstar.com/news/california/article245265105.html. I agree that unless new information surfaces about a lighting strike, the cause should be arson. Jurisdicta (talk) 06:02, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Jurisdicta (talk · contribs), there are no other users that are suggesting or speaking about the causes on the talk page so I am going to update the article to add the part about Arson. If it is removed and no reason is provided on the talk page, I'll revert the changes.

Yeah, it does look like someone was arrested for arson. https://www.mercedsunstar.com/news/california/article245265105.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.242.42.160 (talk) 20:39, 1 November 2020 (UTC)

Elkhorn vs August Complex

Now that these are merged, how are the sizes, containment, etc. tracked? If this just follows an official metric this should be explained on the page, I assume there's a lot of grey area, but as it is now it's confusing how it's both the biggest and 9th biggest fire in history if they're the same fire. Kuralesache (talk) 19:51, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Tdl1060 or User:Shannon1 can you speak to this? It seems like a major issue with the article as is to me, not to be annoying but I can't figure out the answer. Kuralesache (talk) 18:41, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@Kuralesache: For a while yesterday, the acreage and containment stats were being reported as one complex, but as of 6:00 AM this morning, the Elkhorn, Hopkins, Vinegar Peak and Willow Basin fires are reported as the August Complex-North Zone. The August Complex (South Zone) is the largest fire complex in California history regardless of whether the North Zone is included in the total. As far as calling the August Complex-North Zone the ninth largest fire complex in California history, this seems to be based on the Cal Fire graphic that does not include the Santiago Canyon Fire, so as of now it should really be listed as the tenth largest. Since they have merged, whether it should be considered distinct for the purpose of such a ranking is debatable.--Tdl1060 (talk) 21:52, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Looks like it is again one complex as of the latest update (September 12 evening), and it's been split into north, south and west zones. West zone appears to be the western part of what used to be the North zone.Shannon [ Talk ] 21:33, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Notable fires section?

Should we add a notable fires section? The current format - a table - does nothing for readers who want quick information about the fires. They have to click through the fires searching. Adding a "notable fires" section for the August Complex, the SCU complex, and the North complex should let readers who want basic information about the fires have an easier time.@TJRC: ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:36, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

No. It would be better served to simply have a sentence in the lede identifying the most notable fires, with links to the articles on the fires. There's no sense in duplicating effort; it's only going to lead to one article or the other -- most likely this one-- having dated or incorrect information.

The chief benefit of having a wiki is that the reader can select which article to go to to get the detailed information. It makes no sense to copy, even to selectively copy, detail into a more general article on the season, especially when the season is still ongoing, when the same information is provided in the appropriate articles that discuss the particular fires. TJRC (talk) 23:43, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

[add] To make this less theoretical the type of section being proposed to be added can be seen here, largely text copied from the respective articles. TJRC (talk) 23:45, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. It is extremely unhelpful to have such balkanisation of content - I can see about 18 sub-articles already in relation to California alone. This smacks of WP:RECENTISM. In most cases, they are often WP:CFORKs and are unlikely to grow beyond stub-form. —Brigade Piron (talk) 14:43, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

@TJRC: Exactly! We can keep the August Complex and maybe the SCU complex, but the lesser-known fires that burned less acres should all be merged. The North Complex and some other complexes are in better shape. Those can also stay. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 00:54, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@TJRC:However, it will help to add an impact/fatalities section, as seen on both the 2018 and 2019 season articles. ~ Destroyeraa🌀 23:50, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

San Francisco photo

Did anyone take the photos in San Francisco on yesterday? To showing the skyline of the city looks orange and terrible.--Wpcpey (talk) 08:25, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

I did! Here is the image: File:Orange San Fransisco.jpg Mekell1 (talk) 16:32, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

19th-century fires

The second sentence of the article now compares the current fires with the 19th-century. Pretty sure it is not wp:due there, getting way more emphasis than this estimate gets in the media or research community. Not sure though where to move to. Maybe the early outlook section can be complemented with a background section? Here we could also talk about the concurrent drying and heating trends of climate change and changing behaviours in fire management. Femke Nijsse (talk) 17:22, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

Portal:Current events

Hi wikipedians, I recommend that this article become nominated daily to the Disasters and accidents section of the Portal:Current events until there are less than 5 wildfires. SWP13 (talk) 12:21, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@SWP13: Yes. I’m trying to nominate it for WP:ITN; it was posted but later pulled. Very annoying.~ Destroyeraa🌀 12:58, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Structure

I recommend using structure according to Wikipedia:WikiProject Wildfire. Add subsections Effects/Impacts and Fatalities. Thanks, SWP13 (talk) 14:42, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

adding those subsections would be good yes. I do think we should have a section of underlying causes (both the triggers and the underlying causes). This might need to be added to the base structure as climate change is increasingly important in wildfires. Femke Nijsse (talk) 14:52, 14 September 2020 (UTC)

Snow Fire

Please add new fire to table.

Started on September 17, 2020. Riverside county. Burned 1200 acres as of 9-17-2020 8pm local time. Source1: latest info at twitter.com Source2: Snow Fire at fire.ca.gov

Thanks, SWP13 (talk) 03:15, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

• Done [1]. Thanks! --Hammersoft (talk) 03:24, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

"Poor forest management" claim

I have moved the citations that attribute the fire to climate change closer to the relevant part, and added "citation needed" to the claim the fires are due to poor forest management. I believe there is no factual basis to that statement and that a citation won't be able to be provided, as I believe it to be purely politically motivated. It will probably be eventually deleted. Amorim Parga (talk) 13:10, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Right. Therefore I deleted it. Claims by Donald Trump should not be presented as a fact. Not at all. Andol (talk) 14:38, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

Total acreage and double-counting in NIFC year-to-date report

As already noted, the National Interagency Fire Center's National Large Incident Year-to-Date Report double-counts certain fires in its totals. Currently (September 28), the Doe Fire and SHF Elkhorn Fire make up the August Complex (this is not stated explicitly, but the numbers match exactly), and the North Complex includes the North Complex West Zone (this is stated on both the InciWeb and Cal Fire pages, with similar numbers). I did not find any other obvious double-counting, but some may exist. The current total acreage would be calculated as 3,606,573.6(North Cal) + 1,151,798.5(South Cal) – 768,243(AUGUST COMPLEX) – 82,500(NORTH COMPLEX WEST ZONE) = 3,907,629.

This differs from the currently-suggested formula by subtracting the North Complex West Zone, using the SHF Elkhorn Fire instead of the Elkhorn Fire, and not subtracting the August Complex West Zone (which is not included in the August Complex acreage in the YTD report—compare the numbers given on the InciWeb page). The current formula would give 4,165,828.9 acres. (The number currently in the article appears to have been calculated without any correction for double-counting.)

It would be nice to have a source which did not require any corrections. Would the Cal Fire stats page be better? It gives a total of 3,754,729 acres as of September 27, and claims to be updated weekly. Are there other sources which might be better? --104.52.6.215 (talk) 23:47, 28 September 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 October 2020

Add Sonoma County to the list of counties affected by the Glass Fire. The reference already provided for the Glass Fire 111 reflects the fact Sonoma County is affected as well. Clankit (talk) 19:54, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 23:00, 2 October 2020 (UTC)

Update the August Complex acre count

I'll leave it straightforward, it's at 1,002,097 acres now according to Cal Fire. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.220.18.12 (talk) 15:56, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

assertion unsupported by references

In the opening paragraph:

"though roughly equivalent to the pre-1800 levels which averaged around 4.4 million acres yearly and up to 12 million in peak years.[3][4] "

There is an agenda which I don't understand that is determined to promote assertions that millions of acres of forest in California burned in the past so I guess the wildfires are no big deal? I don't know. But the claim that has been circulating about 4.4 to 12 millions acres burned in pre-historic times (yes, pre-historic) originating from a ProPublic article (also cited in this wikipedia page), although this is the first time someone tried to claim it was only a couple centuries ago. But these two links:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/08/us/california-fires-tuesday/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/05/us/california-mammoth-pool-reservoir-camp-fire/index.html

they don't mention it at all.

Here's a link to the the ProPublica "investigation" referenced: https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-megafires-why-wont-anybody-listen

Someone want to be an Internet sleuth and figure out what kind of game is going on here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:646:200:6990:2CB7:C492:A95A:9D44 (talk) 19:19, 24 November 2020 (UTC)

That claim doesn't originate with the ProPubica article. There's a 2007 research piece that first makes the 4-12 mil estimation. It's don't see the assertion saying wildfires are no big deal, it's pointing out that wildfires have been a big deal for a long time. Crescent77 (talk) 05:33, 22 January 2021 (UTC)

Creek fire largest single fire

Creek fire is listed as being the largest single fire in California history which is misleading since the Ranch Fire of 2018, Doe fire of 2020, and debatably the Santiago Canyon fire of 1889 were all larger single fires even though the former went on to merge with other fires to form the Mendocino and August complexes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dioscorea.bulbifera (talk • contribs) 23:52, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

GA criteria

The list is very good, and you deserve kudos for maintaining it. However, the rest of the article could be improved and expanded (readable prose and analysis is very short). The article is needs more background information; the first sentence states "Early in the year, there was a concern for the 2020 fire season to potentially be prolonged and especially grave, due to the unusually dry months of January and February"... but it's never explained what a typical California wildfire season looks like. (You could move the history of pre-Gold Rush wildfires to such a background section.)

There's also an issue with repetitive prose, eg. "The wildfire season typically does not end until the first significant rainstorm of autumn arrives, which is usually around October in Northern California, and first significant rainstorm of winter arrives, usually around early November in Southern California." (no citation) and lack of verifiable sources in some places. Not all the lead content is in the body, contrary to MOS:LEAD, eg. "On November 10, 2020, the National Interagency Coordination Center (NICC) reported..." (t · c) buidhe 23:46, 16 January 2021 (UTC)