This article is within the scope of WikiProject Weather, which collaborates on weather and related subjects on Wikipedia. To participate, help improve this article or visit the project page for details.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Austria, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles about Austria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.AustriaWikipedia:WikiProject AustriaTemplate:WikiProject AustriaAustria
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.GermanyWikipedia:WikiProject GermanyTemplate:WikiProject GermanyGermany
This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FranceWikipedia:WikiProject FranceTemplate:WikiProject FranceFrance
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belgium, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Belgium on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.BelgiumWikipedia:WikiProject BelgiumTemplate:WikiProject BelgiumBelgium-related
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Romania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Romania-related topics on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.RomaniaWikipedia:WikiProject RomaniaTemplate:WikiProject RomaniaRomania
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Moldova, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Moldova on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MoldovaWikipedia:WikiProject MoldovaTemplate:WikiProject MoldovaMoldova
Added a dubious tag, as this doesn't seem to come from scientists (Francois Holland isn't one). The other sources appear to be news rather than peer reviewed scientific publications.Lacunae (talk) 21:21, 9 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure if due - these are all reliable sources (usually they don't get "dubious" tags) even though it's not directly coming from the scientists themselves but news agencies that spoke with scientists. Of those one is named: Gerald Meehl. Maybe there are more appropriate references for it including some coming directly from some scientists? I'd suggest removing that tag again.
as this doesn't seem to come from scientists (Francois Holland isn't one)
Maybe the sources are reliable and what they say it is very probable, but as long as there is no final proof (and I have seen none) that the 2016 European floods are directly connected to climate change, the statements of the scientists should be put in the "Reactions" section. In addition, the scientists who say that should be clearly named, because there are maybe scientists who claim different things.--Gerry1214 (talk) 08:57, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
the statements of the scientists should be put in the "Reactions" section
I put it in the lede not because it is proven but because of its high relevance to the topic and interest of the public. I'd say it belongs to both the lede (summarized) and the reactions section (with more detail) - however I don't think that there's enough material for that in this case. --Fixuture (talk) 19:48, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
So far the only analysis which isn't conjecture is the one by World Weather Attribution and I find that even somewhat problematic, in that they're using the 1960-2015 trend, which is a known "flood poor" time period, trending into what may be now a more "flood rich" period for Western Europe. The reason for flagging the section of the lede with dubious is not one of the quality of the sources used, it is one of confusing conjecture by scientists, with science and attribution of climate change to weather events.Lacunae (talk) 18:51, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Framing conjecture by scientists as fact, combined with with a somewhat false synthesis of what was actually said isn't on, while there is space for discussion of the Polar amplification and jet stream being stuck hypothesis and/or jet stream resonance, so far it needs to be presented as a hypothesis rather than fact.Lacunae (talk) 09:08, 20 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
@Lacunae: The former content was not intended to frame it as fact. I agree that it wasn't made clear enough that this is just speculation. What do you think about this formulation?:
Some scientists suggest that such extreme rainfall has and most likely will continue to increase worldwide and especially in Europe because of man-made climate change
Also I'd like to know what part of the article you'd find most appropriate for this info: the lede, the reactions section, a new section (e.g. called "causes", "relation to climate change" or alike), or multiple?
Btw there are multiple new reports on the connection by now; here's 3 of them: [1], [2], [3]
First, those three "new" reports are all based upon the World Weather Attribution work I linked to above, Second, the new formulation you propose is rather generic, rather than specific to this event. Third, I think the lede is inappropriate, the proposal is so far probably not nuanced or detailed enough to stand as a section on its own, so reactions probably fits best. Though while it is a peer reviewed (I think) or academic treatise, I think we can only provide an accurate assessment of its veracity when other academics have weighed in, otherwise I think given the trend of page editing on Wikipedia we run the risk of incorporating NPOV depending on the swiftness of publication. As an aside I highly recommend the type of language the Centre for Ecology and Hydrology were using surrounding the UK winter flooding of 2015/16.Lacunae (talk) 20:20, 27 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
While this section documents some episodes of flash flooding, which is not unusual, I don't think these instances are notable or directly attributable to the conditions which caused the European flooding in late May/early June.Lacunae (talk) 09:34, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In my understanding it is connected to the prevailing weather conditions in Europe at present. But surely the article needs far more meteorological input to harden this connection. I'm going to add more uncommon phenomenons, e.g. tornados in Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein.--Gerry1214 (talk) 10:02, 10 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Almost none of the sources contain date of publication, an essential piece of a reference, unlike the retrieval date. Why?--Wuerzele (talk) 12:48, 12 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]
