Talk:2014–15 A-League

Matches

2nyte, Rjbsmith, Protenpinner, Ck786, Falastur2 is there a reason there are no matches in the article?— Preceding unsigned comment added by SuperJew (talk • contribs)

I thought it would be better if we simplified this article and only have the current Results table and not the round by round matches as with the previous seasons. Most major league's seasons are formatted that way and by doing so people will focus on the individual club season articles more and update those regularly. I just think it's not necessary to update 3 articles with the exact same info.--2nyte (talk) 11:58, 3 July 2014 (UTC)

Ahhh.. I only just checked this talk page to ask a question and saw this discussion. I've just created the sections for the first couple of rounds. Should these be discontinued? I think if someone was looking for the results this is the first page I would look at, not the club specific articles. The other thing is that we should be consistent between seasons. If we get don't use this in this article, they should be deleted in previous seasons, so we should be sure before doing so. -- Chuq (talk) 12:34, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

So we're going to put all the matches on this article now? Ciaran106 (talk) 13:29, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure - I was a frequent editor of A-League articles several years ago but I've been out of the loop for a few years. I notice User:SuperJew has made updates to the sections, which (I thought) implies support of these sections, but I'll wait and see what the other editors mentioned above (ping 2nyte, Rjbsmith, Protenpinner, Ck786, Falastur2) think. -- Chuq (talk) 22:17, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Apologies, I never saw myself get linked in this chat until Chuq's comment above. My take on this comes basically from my background editing English/European articles, so I am biased towards doing it the way I have seen. In this case, I would advocate not including a list of fixtures but instead replacing them with two results grids - one for the first 18 matches, when each team will play every other home and away once, and a second for the final 9 games where only half the fixtures are played. In substance, it would look like the first two tables here. I'd rather hear other opinions on it before making the change myself, though. Thoughts? Falastur2 ^Talk 23:19, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Edit: Just seen you guys have this already, but all rolled into one table rather than split into two. I'm happy with this. My point stands that I don't see the value of putting every score in its own footballbox. Falastur2 ^Talk 09:00, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to agree with 2nyte; updating 3 articles with fundamentally the same information is a bit stupid. I don't think we should go back and pull the results out of earlier seasons, though - if you're going to do that on the grounds on consistency then you'll need to edit the rest of the season articles to match the format that we're using this season, along with every club season article. That's a project in itself, and I can't say that I have the time to reformat 100 or so articles. Rjbsmith (talk) 01:12, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Rjbsmith in that previous seasons should be left as they are and not be uprooted for the sake of consistency. I did find it weird not to see the fixtures for each round but so long as all games are acknowledged by results then it's fine with the box suggestion by falastur2. Protenpinner (talk) 12:39, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't mind either way and I'm anyway going to be taking a half-year break from 1 December. I just edited them, because IMO if they're there, then they should be correct. --SuperJew (talk) 16:35, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

So if we don't need it updated in 3 articles... if they are updated in just the club ones than that's 2... following the same logic we should only update it in one article (therefore use the season article and not the team articles). I might take a bit more of a look into WikiData because this is the kind of situation it is perfect for - the information is updated once and then all relevant pages are updated at the same time. I might take a look at WP:FOOTBALL and see how they are doing it. -- Chuq (talk) 21:55, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Since we seem to have some sort of consensus I'm going to pull the matches out of this article. Rjbsmith (talk) 06:03, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Welp there goes my reason of coming to this page. Guess I will have to find another source.--200dogz (talk) 06:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

There was no consensus Mr Smith. It looks as though this page is now being constructed to divert traffic to the Ultimate A-League web site per the multiple (and quite improper) outbound links. I will restore the results tomorrow unless I have some sort of indication that a proper process has been gone through. In the interests of full disclosure have any recent editors any association with the proprietors of the Ultimate A-League? Silent Billy (talk) 11:51, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Silent Billy, it doesn't look like there was consensus to delete at all - discussion is still ongoing. I'd support restoring the results section for now. I have no involvement or knowledge as to who runs the Ultimate A-League site. -- Chuq (talk) 12:11, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, I have no connection whatsoever with the Ultimate A-League site so those suggesting some sort of grand conspiracy to drive traffic to that site should take their tin foil hats off. References to that site were added to the A-League articles last season (from memory) by other editors and have been carried across into this season.

Secondly, in regards to "consensus" re: removing the matches, I would argue that comments supportive of the idea of not including match results from 2nyte, Falastur2 and Protenpinner (not including myself) would constitute consensus. If you feel it necessary to add results back here Chuq & Silent Billy, then feel free to do so; however I see no point in it when they appear in the club articles which are linked to at the bottom of this article. Rjbsmith (talk) 12:53, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

While I'm here I'd also like to remind everyone that the length of last season's article came up for comment on WP:FOOTBALL and the Australian noticeboard. Rjbsmith (talk) 13:12, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I find it a quite extraordinary co-incidence that the "reference" site links to Ultimate A-league which carries detailed match stats should appear on the page shortly before the results section is deleted. For the record UltimateALeague.com is registered to Hamson Design Group of Mornington, Victoria Silent Billy (talk) 12:19, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

I was the one who formatted this article so I'll answer some question. I wanted to keep info on this article at a minimum compared to previous season articles. At the end of the season most of the information is quite trivial in a larger scope. I though most of the information would be better served in club season articles instead. So essentially all the in depth information still exists but on specific club articles rather then on a general a-league article with mass information. I though it would also draw 'traffic' to the the club season articles some can get more people updating those articles and using them. Also, I added the references to the Ultimate A-league website. The site was the only place I found exactly what was represented in the various tables (attendence, goal scorers, disciplinary, positions by round) and I though it was important to reference all the information and provide a source for editors to use when updating the article.--2nyte (talk) 02:52, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Comment the problem is the Ultimate A-league website may only be ephemeral. It may disappear overnight for all sorts of reasons. The central data point in this article was quite handy for anyone who just wanted to find out a what happened in a given season without going to the individual club pages which I feel is not really an intuitive thing to do. Silent Billy (talk) 05:25, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Given that it is inconclusive so far as to whether or not there is a consensus as to what should be done with the results listings and that the points made by 2nyte etc are reasonable I am not going to take any immediate action to restore. Has anyone got a suggestion as to what should be done about the outbound links to UA-L? There are other similar sites eg. aleaguestats.com (altho' that site seems a bit truncated at the moment). Silent Billy (talk) 12:23, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

For match stats, I use the actual official match centres for each game on the A-League website. It has the info all there bar attendances which can be recovered from the match report articles. To clarify on my standing, I'd prefer the individual infoboxes for matches as they pertain importance in terms of top goalscorers, discipline etc but I can see 2nyte's view of things, of which I'm not totally against. Protenpinner (talk) 16:12, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

From experience editing last season and this season this season's Club season pages are seeing more editing than last season which is good. --SuperJew (talk) 16:36, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Cannot agree with those throwing doubts around re Ultimate A-League. I've found it to be a pretty useful site which comprehensively and generally reliably reports on A-League results. Suggestions that editors here are affiliated with it are baseless and not especially relevant (rather it is the information itself which is important). The concern that "it may be ephemeral" is hardly justified - redesigns at the official A-League website in the past few years have left hundreds of inaccurate links across the website already so this is hardly a specific concern. There are alternatives too which may be just as good but not in my mind any better/worse. Past versions of this page have definitely contained way too much info (eg listing every goalscorer in the top scorers table). And including every match does create a fair chunk. This league does have less matches than many others so maybe relatively easy to include, however, and I think it is an effective way of chronologically viewing results in greater detail than the alternative tables. Macosal (talk) 14:49, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been absent here for a couple of days. I think that Date, teams, result is enough information for each match, but I don't mind the full version with the goalscorers, crowd, referee etc. But I wanted to make a point about consistency between seasons - this is Wikipedia's strength. We've seen the FFA change the format of the official A-League sites and old results disappear into the ether, worst case is they can't be found but the best case is all the URLs have changed (I haven't checked, but I expect all the match links from the first couple of seasons are still broken). Yes, changing all the old season articles is a lot of work but it is something that should be taken into account when deciding to change the format. -- Chuq (talk) 21:56, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

This new format is a huge retrograde step IMHO. The information for the schedule, results, and details of each game (for me crowd and referee are important) is now gone entirely. I would think that the dates of games was a fairly important part of season information. Going to 10 individual club pages to find the details of each season is totally unworkable. If you want to get rid of either, remove the game details from those 10 pages and have them all here, or, if you think it makes this page too big, in a separate page for the regular season schedule and results, like the other football codes have done. As others have mentioned it is also inconsistent from previous seasons. 203.18.200.11 (talk) 06:38, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

A while ago there was a lengthy discussion on WP:FOOTY on whether individual matches do belong in season articles or not. IIRC the conclusion was that they definitely are not, and simple results table is more than enough. After all, Wikipeida is not the ultimate A-League statistics site (pun intended) so if you need some detailed game history go look for it somewhere else. —WiJG? 12:36, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

UPD: Here is the discussion/conclusion if you want it. In short: detailed match reports in league season articles are unwanted. —WiJG? 12:56, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

That discussion is not very thorough and really didn't come to a consensus/any sort of conclusion (basically the view of a single editor). It also doesn't clarify what a "detailed match report" consists of (as I'd read it not the same as list of results). I do remember a much more recent discussion of this which loosely suggested against including a list of all results, but couldn't find it in a search just now. Macosal (talk) 04:53, 17 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm starting to use Ultimate A-League now to check upcoming fixtures. So if this was really a plot by them to get more visitors (doubt it, but it's fun to think this way) then they have certainly succeeded. FYI, my usual reason of coming to the page previously was to check upcoming matches and their kickoff time; not for matches that have already been played like some people assumed here. There's no way I'm going to dig through 10 different pages just to check what match(es) are happening everyday.--200dogz (talk) 03:03, 18 October 2014 (UTC)

I use fourfourtwo australia and they made a thread about this, seemed like this change made a lot of people upset. I can understand the reasoning in the change but this wiki page was generally the #1 source for fans to get certain statistical info, fixtures, attendances etc and now the need for a lot of those fans to come here is gone completely. I like ultimatea-league as a website but the old format on here was better than anything out there by far. Surely there's a way we could make a new article completely dedicated for fixturing and results throughout the season just like the NRL and AFL do where they have a season article but also a separate one with detailing every game played, attendance, date etc -freshcelerycj (talk) 9:29pm, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The issue with expecting others to use another website now is you never know when that website is going to be sold, taken down, change hands or scope, or anything else. Wikipedia is not going to disappear. I don't think it needs to be in a new article, that would potentially exacerbate the problem of multiple articles. The benefit of Ultimate A-League is that they have a database of matches from which all the charts and tables are calculated. Wikipedia has that same capability in Wikidata - but it would take someone with the time and knowledge to work out how to apply it to this. Although I'm heavily involved in the broader Wikimedia movement I don't know that much about Wikidata. -- Chuq (talk) 03:27, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I have been away on holiday and haven't had an opportunity to follow the discussion until now. Again, there was no nefarious plan to drive traffic to UA-L - in fact I'm far more likely to use data from Fox Sports or the match reports than to use UA-L. The removal was made after a discussion between editors which I believed supported not having individual match results and restored the layout to what it was before the season started. It should be noted that between when the original question was asked by SuperJew back in July and the start of the season that none of the concerns about loss of data, driving traffic to other sites etc. had been raised by any user.

FWIW I don't think we're losing any data/statistics by taking the footballboxes off the main page; they're still on two club season pages for each match. Not having individual results on the main season page is also consistent with other leagues (EPL, J. League, K League, Bundesliga, etc., etc.).

I'm not against the position of having a single listing of match results (I'm a little surprised/concerned that people are using WP to look for upcoming matches instead of using the FFA sites), but I don't believe that it belongs on this page; furthermore if we do move in that direction then the results could (and should) be moved off the club pages with a focus on statistics specific to each club. Rjbsmith (talk) 07:52, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I have seen some discussions (and from memory, deletions) which strongly suggested not to create stand-alone league season results articles. Consistency with other leagues is an issue (although there are many less matches in the A-League season - 140 to the EPL's 380 which is relevant. I don't think there is any reason why the information should not be duplicated in itself (there is no guideline to that effect, and nothing wrong with having some information reproduced in multiple locations (eg Cup comp results are usually on both the club season and competition season page). Macosal (talk) 09:09, 23 October 2014 (UTC)

Well, I haven't been here since early October and judging from the discussion here it looks like not many other readers have either. Last season I would read this article at least twice a week - usually every day. But now there is nothing to read here. This is an article about the 2013-14 A-league season. The season IS the matches. When they are played and what was the result. If I am only interested in a club I can go to that page, but if I want to find out about the 13-14 season, the matches that comprise it, I now have 20 pages to collate myself. Great. 203.18.200.11 (talk) 02:12, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

Revisting

To those watching this article, the separate results article was deleted per AfD. Might be worth revisting whether to rescue that content and add it in here like previous seasons. (I support doing so.) Daniel (talk) 18:40, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Non-free use of File:Hyundai A-League logo.svg

There's an ongoing discussion at WP:NFCR#File:Hyundai A-League logo.svg regarding the use of this file. This is not a deletion discussion; It's just to discuss whether the file satisfies all 10 of the criteria for non-free use in this particular file. All interested editors are invited to comment and any additional clarification that can be provided would be most appreciated. Thanks in advance. - Marchjuly (talk) 16:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:2018–19 A-League which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 16:19, 17 March 2019 (UTC)