Talk:2010 Tonight Show conflict/GA1
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Reviewer: RunningTiger123 (talk · contribs) 01:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Hi LuK3, this article caught my interest and I've decided to give it a go. It'll take some time to get through everything, but I should be able to finish it over the weekend. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
- It is reasonably well written.
- It is factually accurate and verifiable.
- a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
- a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):
- It is broad in its coverage.
- a (major aspects): b (focused):
- a (major aspects): b (focused):
- It follows the neutral point of view policy.
- Fair representation without bias:
- Fair representation without bias:
- It is stable.
- No edit wars, etc.:
- No edit wars, etc.:
- It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
- a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
- Overall:
- Pass/Fail:
- Pass/Fail:
Quick checks:
- Copyvio check shows no major issues; closest matches are attributed quotes.
- Images seem reasonable; the two non-free images (lead image and Kimmel) have solid rationales, and all images include proper alt text and captions.
- The article is stable.
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Lead
[edit]"not participate in the destruction of The Tonight Show"
– this quote is never used in the body, and is therefore unattributed.- That actually was not the exact quote, see "People of Earth" section. I only quoted the term "destruction". -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
on appearing on television
– awkward repetition, maybe tryagainst appearing on television
?- Changed to "...while after a contractual seven-month ban against appearing on television,...". -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:55, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:27, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Background
[edit]- Note: From here on out, I'll assume Carter's citations are accurate.
- Ref. 3 is okay, but not great. It would be better for a source to directly state NBC was a leader, rather than infer it from charts.
- I changed the image caption. I think the chart is fairly straightforward in stating NBC/The Tonight Show were number 1 in viewership for most of the 90s and 2000s. If that still is insufficient please let me know and I'll find another reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
which began in 1993.
– should be a comma at the end- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
can compete
→could compete
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
(for Leno's entire run)
– this might be confusing, since it's not immediately clear if this means 2009 or 2014. I'd suggest rewording or just removing it.- I specified it was Leno's first stint as host.
- Ref. 13 does not make it clear if Michaels suggested O'Brien for the role.
- I found a Los Angeles Times article that seems to say Michaels specifically suggested O'Brien as new host. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 14 never mentions a week-to-week contract.
- There seems to be inconsistencies between the Bill Carter book and other references. Most online sources stated NBC put O'Brien on a 13-week (3 month) contract so I changed it to that. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:16, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
1:30 am.,
→1:30 am,
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:59, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:44, 12 August 2022 (UTC)
Early history
[edit]- No need to link Saturday Night Live again
- Subsequent links removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- For consistency,
late night
should belate-night
when used as an adjective (not a huge issue, just something to consider)- Changed a few terms, I will have to go through the entire article but I'll do it section-by-section for now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Swap sentences for better flow:
Chernin warned...
andNumerous executives...
- Sentence swapped. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
will stay at NBC
→would stay at NBC
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- I still see the original wording... maybe it appeared twice? RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:21, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
as host well after the extension
– feels like it's missing a few words, maybeas until well after the extension was signed
?- Reformatted the sentence based on your section. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Should it say
signed
instead ofsign
? Other wordings are fine, but the current one is wrong. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Should it say
- Ref. 28 and ref. 38 are the same
- I removed reference 38, there are enough refs for that quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
he likened his removal
→Leno likened his removal
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 43 doesn't align well with article
- Same with ref. 54
- Sorry, I'm a little confused regarding this point. Are you saying the physical alignment of the references are causing a problem or is it something in the formatting? -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- My mistake, I meant that what the article says doesn't really match what the sources say (the article generally takes the statements too far). RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification! I changed the NYT references and reformatted the sentence cited by the Deadline Hollywood reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:50, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- My mistake, I meant that what the article says doesn't really match what the sources say (the article generally takes the statements too far). RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm a little confused regarding this point. Are you saying the physical alignment of the references are causing a problem or is it something in the formatting? -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Same with ref. 54
"paradigm shift"
– cited source never uses this quote, so shouldn't be a direct quote- Removed that term. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Wrong year on ref. 57
- Fixed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 01:20, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:06, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Ratings
[edit]While Zucker called O'Brien to reiterate that the generational change was expected
– following source doesn't mention this- I changed that online reference to a Carter ref. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:59, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
by over 2.6 million viewers
– it was actually much higher according to the source- You're right, it was almost 5 million viewers (Letterman had 7.2 million while O'Brien had 2.4 million), thanks for pointing that out. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
18.4 million viewers
– does not match source- Changed to 17.7 million based on reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:06, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 84 does not include that direct quote
- It looks like that quote is in the second paragraph of the source. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
coveted 18–24 demographic
should be18–34
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
local news viewership
– clarify that it's on NBC affiliates, not all networks- Specified it was NBC affiliate viewership. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Use Law & Order instead of Law & Order: Special Victims Unit
- Wikilink changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
he will return
→he would return
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Conan sidekick
→O'Brien sidekick
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Affiliate calls came at an alarming rate, and research analysis revealed...
– sentence abruptly transitions from Leno to O'Brien; make the shift clearer- I changed it to
Affiliate began calling the network to inquire about the show's fate...
, perhaps that is a less jarring. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:22, 14 August 2022 (UTC)Affiliates
should be plural. RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:51, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- I changed it to
- Unrelated to this specific section: Wherever the first time appears in the article, it would probably be best to add a note that all times are Eastern (or Eastern/Pacific).
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 01:35, 13 August 2022 (UTC)
Conflict
[edit]- The "Proposed changes" section relies heavily on Carter (the first and third paragraphs are sourced almost entirely to him). This may be WP:UNDUE unless other citations can be added to show why all of these details are relevant. If more sources are not added, the sections should be trimmed.
- I trimmed some unnecessary sentences to just focus on the Leno meeting. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:28, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
11:35pm
→11:35 pm
for consistency- Reformatted. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
lamented his anxiety
– weird word choice- Changed to
...to share his thoughts regarding the ratings
. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Changed to
including Los Angeles Times
→including the Los Angeles Times
- Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Only link Los Angeles Times and The New York Times at first occurrence (both are linked at least two extra times in the article)
- Removed subsequent links. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 131 and 132 should use the same citation style as the rest of the article
- Changed citation style. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:36, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Reaction and media coverage
[edit]- Ref. 140 doesn't really mention the details it supports
- Added another reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
reminiscent of the Obama "Hope" poster
– that's a bit of a stretch, I'm going to need a pretty clear source for that- I changed it to "similar" to the "Hope" poster, I believe the reference I added supports that. -- LuK3 (Talk) 14:48, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Can't find anything in refs. 152–155 mentioning that Zucker's reputation was damaged (it definitely was, but sources here don't mention it)
- Add a Variety reference that mentions Zucker's reputation. -- LuK3 (Talk) 20:37, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 157, 171, and 176 should have citation style updated
- Citation style updated. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ricky Gervais should probably be linked
- Done.
- Paragraph for ref. 164 is currently inappropriate WP:SYNTH because there is no source connecting the 1992 and 2010 incidents
- I just removed that paragraph. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:09, 15 August 2022 (UTC)
Leno retained an talent agent, a publicist, and entertainment lawyers
– inappropriate synthesis again with the current sources- Also:
an talent agent
→a talent agent
- Also:
"raced past the reviled likes..."
– this direct quote doesn't quite match the source- I switched the quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Paragraph on Kimmel's response seems incomplete – didn't he criticize Leno more when he appeared on "10 at 10"? That feels like something worth mentioning.
- I added a wrap-up sentence regarding Kimmel's criticism of Leno with an Entertainment Weekly reference.
"There's been three hosts..."
– unsourced direct quote- Added reference. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
The comedians who came out in defense...
– probably should have a source or be cut, especially the latter half of the sentence- While it was most likely true, I couldn't find a reliable source to back that up. I removed that sentence. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
10:00pm
→10:00 pm
- Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
Conan's lead-in
→O'Brien's lead-in
- Done. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
- Don't link NBC Sports and Dick Ebersol again
despite O'Brien's success...
– this part of the sentence isn't mentioned in the source, so it's inappropriate synthesis- Last part of that sentence removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 16 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:55, 14 August 2022 (UTC)
Settlement
[edit]Sorry for the delay, I'll try to get the rest of the review knocked out ASAP.
"betrayed"
is a direct quote, so it needs a source.- Added the NYP article with the direct quote. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:42, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
above standard GE levels
– not in source and can easily be removed- Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:43, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
they have done
→[they] have done
- Brackets added. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:46, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 216 (Carter) cannot prove that Leno's lead
held for much of the rest of his run
if it was published in 2010- Added another ref. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- It's another 2010 source – the source should be from 2014 or later if it discussed information up to 2014. RunningTiger123
- Added another ref. -- LuK3 (Talk) 12:56, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
(talk) 00:41, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah, I added the wrong ref, it should be fixed now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 11:57, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:15, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Impact
[edit]Also Leno's larger staff...
– sentence is not supported by source, remove- Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
any effort to mention O'Brien's tenure was whitewashed from company history
– overstatement, they simply removed episodes from the internet- I reworked that sentence to just mention the removal of reruns. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- The sentence's grammar is incorrect and should be fixed. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Sentence fixed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 11:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- The sentence's grammar is incorrect and should be fixed. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:42, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- I reworked that sentence to just mention the removal of reruns. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 242 links to the wrong page.
- Link changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:27, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Aftermath
[edit]the show averages
→the show averaged
- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
US$4 million per episode
– source says 2 million- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:04, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- No need to link Jeff Gaspin or Rick Ludwin
- Removed wikilinks. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:05, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- The current wording implies both Graboff and Gaspin left in November 2011, but that's not right – the easiest fix is to remove
in November 2011
. - Ref. 258 appears to be an unauthorized copy of an episode clip – I would remove it (WP:COPYLINK).
- Same goes for ref. 260 and ref. 185 (latter is in a different section)
- I changed the citation style to cite the episodes and broadcast specifically. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:29, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Same goes for ref. 260 and ref. 185 (latter is in a different section)
until he announced Jimmy Fallon...
– weird wording; maybe useuntil Jimmy Fallon became the next host of the franchise in February 2014
?- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Less than a month removed from hosting Tonight...
– irrelevant paragraph, remove- Removed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
in addition to appearing on
→and later appeared on
(current wording implies appearances were on same date)- Changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:33, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 278 doesn't talk about O'Brien or Triumph at all
- Changed the source. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:36, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
In 2017, mention was made of the host in NBC's 90th Anniversary Special
– unsourced- Ref added. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Ref. 281 doesn't mention Leno, as far as I can tell.
- Ref changed. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
— RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:02, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Sorry for the lengthy review and the delay – overall, it's a really strong article. Once the above comments are resolved, I'll be happy to support promotion. RunningTiger123 (talk) 03:03, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for the thorough review RunningTiger123. I believe I addressed all of the issues raised above. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
- There are a few spots where I replied to your fixes across all sections that still need to be addressed (mostly grammar); otherwise, everything else looks good. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing those out, I believe it should be good now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- Looks good! Passing shortly. RunningTiger123 (talk) 02:20, 21 August 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing those out, I believe it should be good now. -- LuK3 (Talk) 13:53, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
- There are a few spots where I replied to your fixes across all sections that still need to be addressed (mostly grammar); otherwise, everything else looks good. RunningTiger123 (talk) 00:47, 20 August 2022 (UTC)